| Ah, it's started... on 09:51 - May 13 with 570 views | sparks |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:50 - May 13 by Libero |
You're making quite a big aspersion there...
I acknowledge the need to look at a multitude of options, I just do not accept that potentially penalising public workers who have been asked to put themselves in harms way is an acceptable option to even look into.
If that's what you mean by having a "closed mind" then sure.
You have no idea what I "crave" don't be such a berk. |
That is the problem with your approach. You have to explore and assess everything as your starting point. Its normal, good practice and rational.
If you allow ideology to defeat rationality and proper analysis, you end with a mess. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Ah, it's started... on 09:51 - May 13 with 570 views | Libero |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:45 - May 13 by sparks |
No- it doesnt. It reflects how serious administrators, civil servants and business people approach problems. You have to look at everything thoroughly. This will be civil service work- not even government strategy papers. You cannot infer an intent or outcome from that. You are massively jumping the gun. |
I guess time will tell, I sincerely hope you're correct. |  | | |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:52 - May 13 with 570 views | StokieBlue |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:45 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
I’d say that Sunak has proved that lack of being creative isn’t something he suffers from.
If a public sector wage freeze becomes policy and passes in the commons then I’ll be alongside you in condemnation. But it isn’t and hasn’t. It’s one of hundreds of ideas that will be floated in such meetings.somebody may also float the idea of scrapping Trident. That won’t happen either. |
I think Trident probably should be scrapped now. Some international institutions might change after this and having nukes might not be enough to get you to the top table anymore. In reality nukes are not that hard to make and are totally unusable. A virus has done far more damage than anyone has ever done with nukes. They served a purpose during the times of MAD but those times are hopefully behind us.
HS2 should definitely be scrapped, it shouldn't have been started in the form it's in.
Income tax should increase.
We will see what actually happens though, as many have said, literally all possible ideas will be being floated at the moment.
SB |  | | |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:52 - May 13 with 568 views | factual_blue |
So long as cardinal reek-mogg can make hefty profits through his investment firm, that's all that matters to me.
I am Staying Alert on his behalf, as well as my own. |  |
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| Ah, it's started... on 09:55 - May 13 with 553 views | Guthrum |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:47 - May 13 by Darth_Koont |
As we've got one of the lowest combinations of income tax and corporate tax for a Western economy, then it's pretty obvious where the low-hanging fruit really are.
But anyway, we need to move away from this household economy idea that everything we borrow needs to be paid for and the books must balance. We're a sovereign economy that can pay off the cost of Coronavirus and its after-effects over decades, not years. And our national debt has gone up by a trillion over the last 20 years and pretty normal economic cycles. If that's economically prudent during normal times, then we seem happy doing it wrong anyway.
The problem is that the neoliberals will pay to prop up markets (hypocritically and selfishly torpedoing their own ideology at the same time) rather than support innocent people. Why? Because it's always been about getting theirs not governing a country. |
You would think so, regarding tax. But it's such a sacred cow and reputed vote-loser (particularly among Conservatives), that it becomes psychologically difficult to break that world-view. |  |
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| On that subject on 10:00 - May 13 with 535 views | Guthrum |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:52 - May 13 by StokieBlue |
I think Trident probably should be scrapped now. Some international institutions might change after this and having nukes might not be enough to get you to the top table anymore. In reality nukes are not that hard to make and are totally unusable. A virus has done far more damage than anyone has ever done with nukes. They served a purpose during the times of MAD but those times are hopefully behind us.
HS2 should definitely be scrapped, it shouldn't have been started in the form it's in.
Income tax should increase.
We will see what actually happens though, as many have said, literally all possible ideas will be being floated at the moment.
SB |
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/12/europe-must-prepare-for-us-exit-fr | |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:00 - May 13 with 535 views | Libero |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:52 - May 13 by StokieBlue |
I think Trident probably should be scrapped now. Some international institutions might change after this and having nukes might not be enough to get you to the top table anymore. In reality nukes are not that hard to make and are totally unusable. A virus has done far more damage than anyone has ever done with nukes. They served a purpose during the times of MAD but those times are hopefully behind us.
HS2 should definitely be scrapped, it shouldn't have been started in the form it's in.
Income tax should increase.
We will see what actually happens though, as many have said, literally all possible ideas will be being floated at the moment.
SB |
Stokie,
I think you're a fair and balanced poster who is slightly right of centre where I'm slightly more left of centre.
What do you think? Is it not unacceptable to even float this attack on public sector workers pay as idea? Does doing so not make a comment on the goal posts in which those that make the decisions operate in?
While I understand nothing is set in stone I can't help but feel the potential inclusion of it in this collection of "ideas" makes a comment on what rhetroic and values we can expect to see moving forwards. | | | |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:00 - May 13 with 532 views | lowhouseblue |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:20 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
We’ve seen unprecedented government spending to keep people in jobs and stop businesses going bankrupt in the past couple of months. This has to be paid for and some difficult decision will have to be made.
But freezing the pay of health workers in particular will be a completely unacceptable, both morally and politically. And for those two reasons, and knowing Boris Johnson the latter will be his main consideration, I dint see the pay freeze happening.
Scrapping HS2 will be a more likely option. |
good case for treating this as a one off freak event and monetising most of it. we live in strange times and letting this lead to more austerity would be an error. it is truly exceptional and even the risk of future inflation would be better than austerity in the face of recession. i'm pretty conservative in fiscal terms but now is a time to get imaginative with printing money. [Post edited 13 May 2020 10:01]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:09 - May 13 with 503 views | bracknell_blue |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:20 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
We’ve seen unprecedented government spending to keep people in jobs and stop businesses going bankrupt in the past couple of months. This has to be paid for and some difficult decision will have to be made.
But freezing the pay of health workers in particular will be a completely unacceptable, both morally and politically. And for those two reasons, and knowing Boris Johnson the latter will be his main consideration, I dint see the pay freeze happening.
Scrapping HS2 will be a more likely option. |
Not to mention getting the billionaires to cough up and stop sheltering their money offshore. Silly me, forgot who funds the bunch of crooks we call a Government. |  |
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| On that subject on 10:13 - May 13 with 494 views | StokieBlue |
Not sure that makes any real difference.
Russia aren't what they were. They aren't going to launch nukes and they aren't in any type of position to invade Europe. They would probably lose even in a fight against a NATO without the US. Taking ground is virtually impossible nowadays as all the wars in the middle east have shown. Given this what is the point in attacking?
Having nukes or not having them isn't going to be the game changer in my view.
SB | | | |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:16 - May 13 with 483 views | Darth_Koont |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:55 - May 13 by Guthrum |
You would think so, regarding tax. But it's such a sacred cow and reputed vote-loser (particularly among Conservatives), that it becomes psychologically difficult to break that world-view. |
That's why I think coronavirus is an opportunity. Psychologically at least.
It's surely reminded us that a) we're all in this thing called society together and b) it's the most vulnerable who always tend to pay the most in real terms.
With the furlough, the middle and white-collar classes have been treated very fairly. But it's the sort of generous treatment and understanding we rarely if ever give to others despite them also being frequently victims of circumstance. |  |
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| Excellent, I love these threads where..... on 10:20 - May 13 with 480 views | Bloots |
….everyone starts bitching and arguing about something that's total conjecture and speculation.
There are real stories out there, based on actual facts, that are far more newsworthy.
Why are they ignored?
https://www.sundaysport.com/uncategorized/curse-summer-wine/ |  |
| "Great to see you back on here mate, I was considering deactivating my account if you hadn’t returned" - TWTD User (Aug 2025) |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:27 - May 13 with 454 views | gordon |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:52 - May 13 by StokieBlue |
I think Trident probably should be scrapped now. Some international institutions might change after this and having nukes might not be enough to get you to the top table anymore. In reality nukes are not that hard to make and are totally unusable. A virus has done far more damage than anyone has ever done with nukes. They served a purpose during the times of MAD but those times are hopefully behind us.
HS2 should definitely be scrapped, it shouldn't have been started in the form it's in.
Income tax should increase.
We will see what actually happens though, as many have said, literally all possible ideas will be being floated at the moment.
SB |
Trident, HS2, and Heathrow expansion should all be scrapped. The problem is we have a PM who loves massive, large-scale, pointless vanity projects, which isn't exactly what we'll need! |  | | |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:28 - May 13 with 451 views | Oldsmoker |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:20 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
We’ve seen unprecedented government spending to keep people in jobs and stop businesses going bankrupt in the past couple of months. This has to be paid for and some difficult decision will have to be made.
But freezing the pay of health workers in particular will be a completely unacceptable, both morally and politically. And for those two reasons, and knowing Boris Johnson the latter will be his main consideration, I dint see the pay freeze happening.
Scrapping HS2 will be a more likely option. |
I think of all this unprecedented government spending and then wonder why we've been quibbling about 13bn a year for membership of the EU. |  |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:34 - May 13 with 437 views | Chutney |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:23 - May 13 by Libero |
I guess it just confirms the suspicion that if/when this all goes back to "normal" there will be no financial remuneration for those who have worked through the darkest hours, no re balancing of our values, no redistribution of the wealth.
Nope, we will just go back to cutting the essential services we need and patronisingly terming important roles as "low skill"
Bankers, Financial Advisers and Academy Trust's rejoice.
F*cking bleak. |
It doesn't confirm anything.
I think people should probably wait and see what happens before pi55ing their pants.
'Considers'. Of course the government is considering, all governments globally should be considering every eventuality in the round to do what's best for the country. Its clearly a question that's been asked, knowing full well that scenario cant be ruled out at this stage given nobody knows what will happen with the economy and the labour market. Gutter press, this sort of nonsense. |  | | |
| On that subject on 10:34 - May 13 with 437 views | Guthrum |
| On that subject on 10:13 - May 13 by StokieBlue |
Not sure that makes any real difference.
Russia aren't what they were. They aren't going to launch nukes and they aren't in any type of position to invade Europe. They would probably lose even in a fight against a NATO without the US. Taking ground is virtually impossible nowadays as all the wars in the middle east have shown. Given this what is the point in attacking?
Having nukes or not having them isn't going to be the game changer in my view.
SB |
It was more as an indicator of increasing destabilisation.
We can have nukes without Trident, but not in the form of submarine-launched missiles (or, rather, it would take us a decade or more to develop our own). But we certainly have the technology to build free-fall bombs.
More of an issue is how much we would save by abandoning it. Quite a lot of the money will have already been spent, which we wouldn't get back. Also, the new submarines represent jobs in some of the UK's more fragile economic areas (e.g. Barrow-in-Furness, on the Clyde). | |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:34 - May 13 with 438 views | giant_stow |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:27 - May 13 by gordon |
Trident, HS2, and Heathrow expansion should all be scrapped. The problem is we have a PM who loves massive, large-scale, pointless vanity projects, which isn't exactly what we'll need! |
He's got a different kind of vanity project avilable if he wants it: establishing an 'army' of people to make our new lives as comfortable as possible (contact tracers, testers, home-gorwn PPE providors, builders to convert schools, hospitals and care homes... blah blah blah) |  |
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| Excellent, I love these threads where..... on 10:36 - May 13 with 437 views | giant_stow |
| Excellent, I love these threads where..... on 10:20 - May 13 by Bloots |
….everyone starts bitching and arguing about something that's total conjecture and speculation.
There are real stories out there, based on actual facts, that are far more newsworthy.
Why are they ignored?
https://www.sundaysport.com/uncategorized/curse-summer-wine/ |
I like these threads, only because they give an opportunity for me to read your pithy commentary. ta. | |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:36 - May 13 with 429 views | StokieBlue |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:00 - May 13 by Libero |
Stokie,
I think you're a fair and balanced poster who is slightly right of centre where I'm slightly more left of centre.
What do you think? Is it not unacceptable to even float this attack on public sector workers pay as idea? Does doing so not make a comment on the goal posts in which those that make the decisions operate in?
While I understand nothing is set in stone I can't help but feel the potential inclusion of it in this collection of "ideas" makes a comment on what rhetroic and values we can expect to see moving forwards. |
Morning Libbers.
I wouldn't say I am right of centre, I like to take each issue on it's merits rather than being guided by an overall political stance. I do understand that some people find that a baffling and even ridiculous attitude though.
It's complicated. I don't think there should be an explicit pay freeze on public sector workers but then if it's not a consideration then implied increases have to be paid for as well. I certainly think it sends a bad message to people still working hard to contain and deal with C19 but I also understand that virtually all possible scenarios need to be raised and analysed. Given this I do feel it is fair to have it under consideration but I don't expect it to be part of any measures. I also don't expect massive pay increases either though no matter how deserved they would be.
The article you posted is predicting a deficit of 337bn this year, it's usually ~60bn. That can all go on the national debt but that has to be either repaid or rolled at some point. Saying that the super-rich should pay has merit but isn't as simple as that otherwise it would already have been done.
Adding 2p to income tax is probably the most viable solution but that would only raise ~15bn more tax revenue each year which is peanuts compared to the amount borrowed during C19.
There are no easy solutions as the money is finite. Probably the only thing that could be done is massive money printing as Lowhouse suggested but that comes with the issues around inflation although now might not be the time to worry about that.
SB | | | |
| How many Creme Eggs.... on 10:40 - May 13 with 420 views | Bloots |
| Excellent, I love these threads where..... on 10:36 - May 13 by giant_stow |
I like these threads, only because they give an opportunity for me to read your pithy commentary. ta. |
....can you shove up your bum? | |
| "Great to see you back on here mate, I was considering deactivating my account if you hadn’t returned" - TWTD User (Aug 2025) |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:41 - May 13 with 420 views | StokieBlue |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:27 - May 13 by gordon |
Trident, HS2, and Heathrow expansion should all be scrapped. The problem is we have a PM who loves massive, large-scale, pointless vanity projects, which isn't exactly what we'll need! |
If that's the case then this could be perfect for him. Something like the huge infrastructure projects that the US undertook after WW2 could be funded by printing money and get people back to work.
The ones you've pointed out should be scrapped and they could centre around point-to-point railway improvements, renewable energy, house building and improved public services (schools, hospitals, internet etc).
The caveat being that some planning rules would need to be relaxed otherwise nothing would ever get done.
None of the above will happen of course and HS2 and Heathrow will continue.
SB | | | |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:43 - May 13 with 408 views | Libero |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:36 - May 13 by StokieBlue |
Morning Libbers.
I wouldn't say I am right of centre, I like to take each issue on it's merits rather than being guided by an overall political stance. I do understand that some people find that a baffling and even ridiculous attitude though.
It's complicated. I don't think there should be an explicit pay freeze on public sector workers but then if it's not a consideration then implied increases have to be paid for as well. I certainly think it sends a bad message to people still working hard to contain and deal with C19 but I also understand that virtually all possible scenarios need to be raised and analysed. Given this I do feel it is fair to have it under consideration but I don't expect it to be part of any measures. I also don't expect massive pay increases either though no matter how deserved they would be.
The article you posted is predicting a deficit of 337bn this year, it's usually ~60bn. That can all go on the national debt but that has to be either repaid or rolled at some point. Saying that the super-rich should pay has merit but isn't as simple as that otherwise it would already have been done.
Adding 2p to income tax is probably the most viable solution but that would only raise ~15bn more tax revenue each year which is peanuts compared to the amount borrowed during C19.
There are no easy solutions as the money is finite. Probably the only thing that could be done is massive money printing as Lowhouse suggested but that comes with the issues around inflation although now might not be the time to worry about that.
SB |
Apologies for characterising you in a manor you don't agree with, was purely my own assessment.
Appreciate your response none the less, I was looking to use you as a barometer of sorts. There's no doubt I had an emotional reaction this morning to the leak and may have gone a bit over the top in retrospect, I'm happy to concede that as what is suggested as an option in the leaks directly effects me and several my extended family.
What I'm fairly strong on though is that under no circumstances should it even be considered as an option, but I guess that's driven by the values and rhetoric I hold so meh. Just surprised so many people believe it should be explored. | | | |
| How many Creme Eggs.... on 10:45 - May 13 with 397 views | giant_stow |
| How many Creme Eggs.... on 10:40 - May 13 by Bloots |
....can you shove up your bum? |
That was indeed a cracker! I even showed it Mrs Ullaa.
(20) | |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:48 - May 13 with 381 views | Darth_Koont |
| Ah, it's started... on 10:43 - May 13 by Libero |
Apologies for characterising you in a manor you don't agree with, was purely my own assessment.
Appreciate your response none the less, I was looking to use you as a barometer of sorts. There's no doubt I had an emotional reaction this morning to the leak and may have gone a bit over the top in retrospect, I'm happy to concede that as what is suggested as an option in the leaks directly effects me and several my extended family.
What I'm fairly strong on though is that under no circumstances should it even be considered as an option, but I guess that's driven by the values and rhetoric I hold so meh. Just surprised so many people believe it should be explored. |
No, you're right to raise it.
This is the "hypothetical option" we've been taking for years. We can pretend this is speculation and exploratory if we want but it's now it needs to be challenged. | |
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| Ah, it's started... on 10:53 - May 13 with 373 views | homer_123 |
| Ah, it's started... on 09:20 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
We’ve seen unprecedented government spending to keep people in jobs and stop businesses going bankrupt in the past couple of months. This has to be paid for and some difficult decision will have to be made.
But freezing the pay of health workers in particular will be a completely unacceptable, both morally and politically. And for those two reasons, and knowing Boris Johnson the latter will be his main consideration, I dint see the pay freeze happening.
Scrapping HS2 will be a more likely option. |
Though the cost of scrapping it at this stage would also be astronimical. |  |
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