| Today's scapegoat? on 08:16 - May 20 with 1656 views | pointofblue |
Then surely they should publish the advice? As they have nothing to hide and have been following it every step of the way. |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:21 - May 20 with 1634 views | bluelagos |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:16 - May 20 by pointofblue |
Then surely they should publish the advice? As they have nothing to hide and have been following it every step of the way. |
I wonder why the government that spent weeks claiming they were "following the science" haven't published, in full, without redactions, the advice?
Struggling to think of a legitimate reason, when the scientists involved are happy for it to be published. |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:22 - May 20 with 1627 views | artsbossbeard |
It's so easy to simply sit back and blame the virus handling on the government especially as it's so easy to simply sit back and blame the virus handling on the government. |  |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:28 - May 20 with 1603 views | pointofblue |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:21 - May 20 by bluelagos |
I wonder why the government that spent weeks claiming they were "following the science" haven't published, in full, without redactions, the advice?
Struggling to think of a legitimate reason, when the scientists involved are happy for it to be published. |
Reading the article their own back benches are starting to turn, one Conservative MP has written to the PM asking for the advice to be published in full. | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:29 - May 20 with 1590 views | Herbivore |
I think the government are playing a dangerous game here. Our country is a mess and there are many idiots about, but I'm not sure we're quite stuffed enough that the government can go full Trump and get away with it. |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:30 - May 20 with 1606 views | Guthrum |
To be fair, Coffey is not entirely wrong. Duff advice leads to wrong decisions. Some of the early scientific modelling was logically arrived at, but proven to be incorrect as more data came in, analysed and its implications understood. Which inevitably shaped the Government's actions. And, as a result, probably cost lives.
But, equally, this was not a situation where there were any clear and easy answers. To have been really effective, we needed to have begun the lockdown before we knew it had spread to Europe at all (and quarantined everybody who had been skiing in Italy or Austria). By the time the Lombardy outbreak had begun in earnest, it was already too late. Simply not enough was undestood about Covid-19 at that stage. |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:31 - May 20 with 1595 views | pointofblue |
Not the teachers themselves but the unions, to be pedantic. The Mail and the unions have had such a close relationship after all... | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:35 - May 20 with 1589 views | bluelagos |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:30 - May 20 by Guthrum |
To be fair, Coffey is not entirely wrong. Duff advice leads to wrong decisions. Some of the early scientific modelling was logically arrived at, but proven to be incorrect as more data came in, analysed and its implications understood. Which inevitably shaped the Government's actions. And, as a result, probably cost lives.
But, equally, this was not a situation where there were any clear and easy answers. To have been really effective, we needed to have begun the lockdown before we knew it had spread to Europe at all (and quarantined everybody who had been skiing in Italy or Austria). By the time the Lombardy outbreak had begun in earnest, it was already too late. Simply not enough was undestood about Covid-19 at that stage. |
Where that falls down Guthers is when you consider all the UK organisations that shut down before the government locked down.
The London marathon was cancelled, the Scottish FA, even the Queen. We were slow to lockdown and to hide behind the science is a cop out imho. 10 minutes watching skynews pictures of Italian hospitals was enough for most people to grasp the dangers. That and a basic understanding of how viruses spread.
They dithered when all around were taking actions. Including many in the UK. [Post edited 20 May 2020 8:37]
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:38 - May 20 with 1570 views | sparks |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:35 - May 20 by bluelagos |
Where that falls down Guthers is when you consider all the UK organisations that shut down before the government locked down.
The London marathon was cancelled, the Scottish FA, even the Queen. We were slow to lockdown and to hide behind the science is a cop out imho. 10 minutes watching skynews pictures of Italian hospitals was enough for most people to grasp the dangers. That and a basic understanding of how viruses spread.
They dithered when all around were taking actions. Including many in the UK. [Post edited 20 May 2020 8:37]
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They have the age old problem that you cant trust the public with facts.
If they released papers, they will be quote mined, cherry picked- and decisions reasonably made on reasonable advice will be questioned and held up by people who don't read the whole document or understand the non black and white nature of such things. So they dont release it, in order to protect their arses- even if they have followed advice rigorously.
That is not a good reason, democratically speaking, not to publish though. The pressure should be ramped up.
Whatever happened to that report on Russia prior to the election whilst we are at it? |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:42 - May 20 with 1551 views | giant_stow |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:38 - May 20 by sparks |
They have the age old problem that you cant trust the public with facts.
If they released papers, they will be quote mined, cherry picked- and decisions reasonably made on reasonable advice will be questioned and held up by people who don't read the whole document or understand the non black and white nature of such things. So they dont release it, in order to protect their arses- even if they have followed advice rigorously.
That is not a good reason, democratically speaking, not to publish though. The pressure should be ramped up.
Whatever happened to that report on Russia prior to the election whilst we are at it? |
If the scientists involved suggested loads of policies which were never enacted, surely they'll leak it out sooner or later just to protect themselves, no? |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:47 - May 20 with 1535 views | Guthrum |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:35 - May 20 by bluelagos |
Where that falls down Guthers is when you consider all the UK organisations that shut down before the government locked down.
The London marathon was cancelled, the Scottish FA, even the Queen. We were slow to lockdown and to hide behind the science is a cop out imho. 10 minutes watching skynews pictures of Italian hospitals was enough for most people to grasp the dangers. That and a basic understanding of how viruses spread.
They dithered when all around were taking actions. Including many in the UK. [Post edited 20 May 2020 8:37]
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But even they were far too late. Nobody was even considering lockdown in the last two weeks of February. Before the situation in Italian hospitals had even developed.
Part of the problem was basic understanding of how viruses spread. Some of the scientists were working on models based on one set of diseases (and the Chinese data), whereas Covid was not, in reality, behaving like that. As the Italian data proved. But that took time to arrive and be analysed.
That's not to say the Government is blameless. Perhaps they were heeding the wrong advice because it was closer to what they wanted to hear than the other voices. There was that feeble "voluntary social distancing" period, which lost us a week. | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:47 - May 20 with 1536 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:30 - May 20 by Guthrum |
To be fair, Coffey is not entirely wrong. Duff advice leads to wrong decisions. Some of the early scientific modelling was logically arrived at, but proven to be incorrect as more data came in, analysed and its implications understood. Which inevitably shaped the Government's actions. And, as a result, probably cost lives.
But, equally, this was not a situation where there were any clear and easy answers. To have been really effective, we needed to have begun the lockdown before we knew it had spread to Europe at all (and quarantined everybody who had been skiing in Italy or Austria). By the time the Lombardy outbreak had begun in earnest, it was already too late. Simply not enough was undestood about Covid-19 at that stage. |
True, duff advice can lead to bad decisions. Which is why they needed to be transparent and allow scrutiny of their decisions and how they came by them. That's the fundamental bit of "following the science" they forgot. People were telling them this non-stop, but they ignored everyone. |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 08:50 - May 20 with 1522 views | m14_blue |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:42 - May 20 by giant_stow |
If the scientists involved suggested loads of policies which were never enacted, surely they'll leak it out sooner or later just to protect themselves, no? |
They will now.
I have a feeling that Coffey will be extremely unpopular with Cummings et al for this. The last thing they want is for the scientists to start talking openly about how decisions were arrived at, we saw the first hints of that in yesterday’s conference and it didn’t paint the government in a good light at all. | | | |
| Today's scapegoat? on 09:29 - May 20 with 1452 views | GeoffSentence |
If it's all down to the scientists, what's the point of this government? |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 09:32 - May 20 with 1446 views | Guthrum |
| Today's scapegoat? on 09:29 - May 20 by GeoffSentence |
If it's all down to the scientists, what's the point of this government? |
Because somebody has to decide which are the right scientists to follow and, more importantly, to temper the epidemiology with practical economics and an understanding of what the population can take (or are prepared to accept). Like the head of a cross-disciplinary committee. | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 09:46 - May 20 with 1421 views | EdwardStone |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:38 - May 20 by sparks |
They have the age old problem that you cant trust the public with facts.
If they released papers, they will be quote mined, cherry picked- and decisions reasonably made on reasonable advice will be questioned and held up by people who don't read the whole document or understand the non black and white nature of such things. So they dont release it, in order to protect their arses- even if they have followed advice rigorously.
That is not a good reason, democratically speaking, not to publish though. The pressure should be ramped up.
Whatever happened to that report on Russia prior to the election whilst we are at it? |
And I'm still waiting to see the Acruri report
Y'know, the one where the taxpayer gifted large slabs of money/access to the blonde pole-dancing lass that Johnson was spaffing
* edit....minor speling erorr* [Post edited 20 May 2020 11:28]
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| Today's scapegoat? on 09:54 - May 20 with 1406 views | Pendejo |
Follow the gourd! |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 10:09 - May 20 with 1395 views | GeoffSentence |
| Today's scapegoat? on 09:32 - May 20 by Guthrum |
Because somebody has to decide which are the right scientists to follow and, more importantly, to temper the epidemiology with practical economics and an understanding of what the population can take (or are prepared to accept). Like the head of a cross-disciplinary committee. |
Yes, so if they got it wrong then they failed in all that bit. | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 10:11 - May 20 with 1394 views | m14_blue |
| Today's scapegoat? on 09:29 - May 20 by GeoffSentence |
If it's all down to the scientists, what's the point of this government? |
This is how I reckon the meetings have been going (pure conjecture obviously but time will tell), using testing as an example but similar could apply to PPE, care homes, schools etc
Government: What sort of testing regime should we put in place?
Scientists: As many as possible. An effective track and trace regime is crucial.
Government: We don’t have any track and trace capability and only have capacity for 10,000 tests a day.
Scientists: Oh. In that case you’ll have to make sure patients in hospitals are getting them I guess.
Government to the world: We are following the science by only testing hospital patients despite that appearing out of step with the better performing countries. We have world leading experts and are following their advice.
And so it’s sort of true that they’re ‘following the science’ but it’s very much shaped by the politics. The scientists go along with it because it’s sort of true and they know how vital it is not to undermine public trust in the government during a public health crisis.
However, if politicians are now going to start openly criticising that advice, and therefore blaming the scientists for our enormous death toll, I suspect the delicately balanced apple cart won’t last long.
I also don’t think for one second that Therese Coffey was anywhere near any decision making or that she has a clue about what advice was given. | | | |
| Today's scapegoat? on 10:15 - May 20 with 1387 views | factual_blue |
| Today's scapegoat? on 09:54 - May 20 by Pendejo |
Follow the gourd! |
No! Let us gather shoes together! |  |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 11:08 - May 20 with 1371 views | Pendejo |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:35 - May 20 by bluelagos |
Where that falls down Guthers is when you consider all the UK organisations that shut down before the government locked down.
The London marathon was cancelled, the Scottish FA, even the Queen. We were slow to lockdown and to hide behind the science is a cop out imho. 10 minutes watching skynews pictures of Italian hospitals was enough for most people to grasp the dangers. That and a basic understanding of how viruses spread.
They dithered when all around were taking actions. Including many in the UK. [Post edited 20 May 2020 8:37]
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Did we either or were we late due to the Chinese covering it up until horse well and truly bolted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52589449 | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 11:40 - May 20 with 1354 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Today's scapegoat? on 08:30 - May 20 by Guthrum |
To be fair, Coffey is not entirely wrong. Duff advice leads to wrong decisions. Some of the early scientific modelling was logically arrived at, but proven to be incorrect as more data came in, analysed and its implications understood. Which inevitably shaped the Government's actions. And, as a result, probably cost lives.
But, equally, this was not a situation where there were any clear and easy answers. To have been really effective, we needed to have begun the lockdown before we knew it had spread to Europe at all (and quarantined everybody who had been skiing in Italy or Austria). By the time the Lombardy outbreak had begun in earnest, it was already too late. Simply not enough was undestood about Covid-19 at that stage. |
Enough was known to lockdown a week or even two, earlier. Other countries did and fewer people have died |  | | |
| Today's scapegoat? on 12:48 - May 20 with 1319 views | Guthrum |
| Today's scapegoat? on 11:40 - May 20 by reusersfreekicks |
Enough was known to lockdown a week or even two, earlier. Other countries did and fewer people have died |
A week or two earlier would have helped a bit (certainly the former should have happened, rather than the feeble "voluntary social distancing" which was announced). But the virus was already well established in the UK before that. | |
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| Today's scapegoat? on 07:55 - May 22 with 1184 views | Herbivore |
| Today's scapegoat? on 12:48 - May 20 by Guthrum |
A week or two earlier would have helped a bit (certainly the former should have happened, rather than the feeble "voluntary social distancing" which was announced). But the virus was already well established in the UK before that. |
This guy thinks it would have made a fair difference had we locked down a week or two earlier: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52764645
I think when a scientist that is part of SAGE is telling people that the "following the science" line is misleading then people need to take heed of that. | |
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