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I think it is really important to state that 3 innocent people did die in Reading 3 days ago, again by an individual who is known to the authorities, but that has nothing to do with discrimination and inequality, that's purely incompetence to keep and control a safe country through governance.
I have serious doubt in my mind that this individual flew the banner in some sort of misguided recognition for the people in Reading.
This individual flew the flag because he feels threatened by the statement 'Black Lives Matter'. BLM isn't about Black lives, it is about all lives.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 15:54 - Jun 23 by WubbleU
Not defending the banner, clearly racist, but does feel like people draw the boundaries wherever fits their point of view.
So BLM is for the greater good of all lives but we mustn't call it 'all lives matter' because that's not the point...except when it is the point.
No. BLM is relevant particularly because of a specific issue in terms of police treatment of black folk, and associated issues. Its an answer / opposition to that issue.
The "all lives matter" thing is purely people objecting to the existence and prominence of that message.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 16:28 - Jun 23 by sparks
No. BLM is relevant particularly because of a specific issue in terms of police treatment of black folk, and associated issues. Its an answer / opposition to that issue.
The "all lives matter" thing is purely people objecting to the existence and prominence of that message.
Plus the banner did not say "all lives matter". It said "white lives matter". The implication is that they believe there is as much threat to white freedom as to black. The banner effectively states there is no such thing as racism in this country - blacks are rightly treated because of how "they" treat whites.
Second, if they are claiming it as a direct response to the Reading attacks (which still isn't excusable), I would love to see a timeline of the planning and production of the banner that shows it was only after they happened. The link should clearly be made that they are standing up for the men who died in what may well have been a homophobic attack.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 12:24 - Jun 23 by blueprint
This was discussed on the Football away days Facebook page last night. A large amount were praising the people who instigated the fly past . When challenged they came out with the same lame arguments to justify it .
So many seem to think that “Black lives matters” means that nobody else’s does. They really don’t get it. One idiot said that because players took the knee that he will never set foot in a stadium again. Unbelievable.
Sadly I had to explain this to a close family member yesterday when she started spouting ‘yeah but all lives matter’. It’s like FFS we know all lives matter, but in practice that isn’t the case for so many people, hence the BLM movement
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 16:47 - Jun 23 with 3064 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 16:34 - Jun 23 by Nthsuffolkblue
Plus the banner did not say "all lives matter". It said "white lives matter". The implication is that they believe there is as much threat to white freedom as to black. The banner effectively states there is no such thing as racism in this country - blacks are rightly treated because of how "they" treat whites.
Second, if they are claiming it as a direct response to the Reading attacks (which still isn't excusable), I would love to see a timeline of the planning and production of the banner that shows it was only after they happened. The link should clearly be made that they are standing up for the men who died in what may well have been a homophobic attack.
It comes from the instinctive feeling that when someone else is being treated in a special way or given more attention- it is inequitable. I get that, but rationally you have to stop and ask why in this situation.
Of course, there are people in deprived circumstances of all backgrounds, so when they see a lot of focus and (often) money / political will being directed at one group's position- it feels a bit like they are being neglected or unfairly treated. Even if they are not.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 16:34 - Jun 23 by Nthsuffolkblue
Plus the banner did not say "all lives matter". It said "white lives matter". The implication is that they believe there is as much threat to white freedom as to black. The banner effectively states there is no such thing as racism in this country - blacks are rightly treated because of how "they" treat whites.
Second, if they are claiming it as a direct response to the Reading attacks (which still isn't excusable), I would love to see a timeline of the planning and production of the banner that shows it was only after they happened. The link should clearly be made that they are standing up for the men who died in what may well have been a homophobic attack.
And that's before considering it's also the name of a white supremacist group in the US. Which they may or may not have known (suspect they did given his fascination with SYL).
The Reading stabbings took place on Saturday evening, the plane was flying over Manchester on Monday evening. I'd be surprised if it was possible to arrange the logistics of this in under 48 hours. The man concerned has merely been handed a spurious 'cause' to attach his bigotry to.
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 19:47 - Jun 23 with 2913 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 16:28 - Jun 23 by sparks
No. BLM is relevant particularly because of a specific issue in terms of police treatment of black folk, and associated issues. Its an answer / opposition to that issue.
The "all lives matter" thing is purely people objecting to the existence and prominence of that message.
Interestingly enough, the people who are interested in 'all people' seem to vanish when, fro example, it's refugees growing at sea, I've noticed.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 12:32 - Jun 23 by Darth_Koont
Sadly, with all the dogwhistling that's been going on over the years, there are far too many angry white men who truly believe that BLM is an attack on them.
They think it's black lives mattering that has marginalised them. But it's not, what has marginalised them is the the populists who have co-opted their anger and lied to them.
If they had any insight into the root causes of their disillusionment and disenfranchisement then they'd see BLM and other progressive movements as their allies. Problem is that it's easier to hate and to blame than it is to think and perhaps accept some home truths.
Fantastic post
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 20:28 - Jun 23 with 2865 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 14:42 - Jun 23 by TheTrueBlue1878
I actually meant Burnley fan, not fans, just typo so thanks for picking that out.
I was listening to a young Burnley fan last night who was outraged by this, indicating the club has worked so hard to move away from this 'old faction supporter group' that once was prominent at Burnley.
I have to say I think 99% of Burnley fans will be outraged by this and I am certainly not categorising them all.
With respect I have to disagree with your assertion that 99% would be outraged.
We still haver a sizeable minority of people in this country who would support the White Lives Matter nonsense. I don't know whether the number would be ten or twenty percent or more but there are many including plenty who will pay lip service to anti-racism but will be constantly repeating racist messages on anonymous social media.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 20:28 - Jun 23 by Tangledupin_Blue
With respect I have to disagree with your assertion that 99% would be outraged.
We still haver a sizeable minority of people in this country who would support the White Lives Matter nonsense. I don't know whether the number would be ten or twenty percent or more but there are many including plenty who will pay lip service to anti-racism but will be constantly repeating racist messages on anonymous social media.
Unfortunately I think you're absolutely right.
This isn't fringe stuff, it's mainstream.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 21:33 - Jun 23 with 2772 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 20:37 - Jun 23 by Darth_Koont
Unfortunately I think you're absolutely right.
This isn't fringe stuff, it's mainstream.
Speaking from my point of view.
I've experienced all this nonsense in one form or another from 2 cousins, 3 of my mates and my sister.
All repeating along the same lines of reasoning.
So if that's anything to go by, that's not a great sign for progression.
You can gauge people's opinions too by their silence. I know who will respond to whatever posts I stick up on FB for example, in advance, who might argue, who will agree and who will stay quiet.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 21:33 - Jun 23 by jeera
Speaking from my point of view.
I've experienced all this nonsense in one form or another from 2 cousins, 3 of my mates and my sister.
All repeating along the same lines of reasoning.
So if that's anything to go by, that's not a great sign for progression.
You can gauge people's opinions too by their silence. I know who will respond to whatever posts I stick up on FB for example, in advance, who might argue, who will agree and who will stay quiet.
Whilst I get this "silence is violence" thing. It is divisive and not entirely fair or helpful imo.
I have in mind a recent minor FB conflict between two very old friends. I think highly of and am fond of both of them. I think one was possibly a little over zealous in the pro BLM position, and one had been enticed by the "all lives" type narrative.
I stayed silent. I have no desire to fall out with either and, realistically, my input (especially on the internet where all nuance and discussion goes to die) was unlikely to assist, rather than simply entrench positions.
I like to think that i did that with good reason. I respect the guy who called the other one out for doing so. But I think the other was misguided and enticed by the social media narratives, rather than remotely malicious or bigotted.
Never a perfect answer.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 21:33 - Jun 23 by jeera
Speaking from my point of view.
I've experienced all this nonsense in one form or another from 2 cousins, 3 of my mates and my sister.
All repeating along the same lines of reasoning.
So if that's anything to go by, that's not a great sign for progression.
You can gauge people's opinions too by their silence. I know who will respond to whatever posts I stick up on FB for example, in advance, who might argue, who will agree and who will stay quiet.
I get that people are upset and angry about the modern world.
But Jesus. Just take a look at who's been dividing and conquering to get in charge.
If anyone thinks that Trump, Johnson, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, Modi etc. plus their demon offspring like Farage, Robinson and Hopkins has anyone's interests but their own at heart ... then they're a f@cking idiot.
The modern world is complicated and yet very advanced and progressive. Anyone who says otherwise is A) a self-serving, populist c@nt, B) betting against evolution (cf Rees-Mogg and the disaster capitalists) or C) they'd rather blame darkies.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 21:55 - Jun 23 with 2736 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 21:45 - Jun 23 by sparks
Whilst I get this "silence is violence" thing. It is divisive and not entirely fair or helpful imo.
I have in mind a recent minor FB conflict between two very old friends. I think highly of and am fond of both of them. I think one was possibly a little over zealous in the pro BLM position, and one had been enticed by the "all lives" type narrative.
I stayed silent. I have no desire to fall out with either and, realistically, my input (especially on the internet where all nuance and discussion goes to die) was unlikely to assist, rather than simply entrench positions.
I like to think that i did that with good reason. I respect the guy who called the other one out for doing so. But I think the other was misguided and enticed by the social media narratives, rather than remotely malicious or bigotted.
Never a perfect answer.
That's my fault for not being clear.
I mean over some time on a range of things.
Say, the past couple of years including posts revolving around Brexit to the past few weeks concerning BLM.
The cousins I have seen posting things like brown people jumping from the rear of trucks as evidence that the EU is responsible for illegal immigration etc, to arguing the toss over Brexit including the sort of blatant lies we have all discussed on here many times.
My sister retorted immediately with the ALM matter thing a few weeks ago when I raised the subject. She's my sister so I can yell at her a bit and send her info by email and nag until she reads it so that is different.
Those who keep quiet, I was referring to my own posts; as in, like I say, I feel some are harbouring particular views but want to avoid confrontation with my views.
You know what I mean, you know who will respond to what and how, if at all.
I could pretty much tailor my posts according to an audience if I wished.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 21:45 - Jun 23 by sparks
Whilst I get this "silence is violence" thing. It is divisive and not entirely fair or helpful imo.
I have in mind a recent minor FB conflict between two very old friends. I think highly of and am fond of both of them. I think one was possibly a little over zealous in the pro BLM position, and one had been enticed by the "all lives" type narrative.
I stayed silent. I have no desire to fall out with either and, realistically, my input (especially on the internet where all nuance and discussion goes to die) was unlikely to assist, rather than simply entrench positions.
I like to think that i did that with good reason. I respect the guy who called the other one out for doing so. But I think the other was misguided and enticed by the social media narratives, rather than remotely malicious or bigotted.
Never a perfect answer.
I respect your approach to see them as people. That's important. But what's the problem with you saying what you think too?
I'm sure I'm not alone with having relatives and friends who, let's be honest, are basically wrong and are clinging onto something that was accepted a long time ago. I can tell them they're wrong and that they should be better, just like I'd tell my daughters if they went across the line (although they know the line better than me).
We may disagree and they may have a counter-argument but then let's hear it and discuss it. In my experience, when people are talking about racism they're always talking about themselves.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 22:45 - Jun 23 with 2664 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 16:46 - Jun 23 by Blueastheycome
Sadly I had to explain this to a close family member yesterday when she started spouting ‘yeah but all lives matter’. It’s like FFS we know all lives matter, but in practice that isn’t the case for so many people, hence the BLM movement
Had a discussion with my Mum the other day because she liked the ‘Police lives matter’ meme doing the rounds on Facebook.
Her response was that she couldn’t care less about what’s happening in the US, it’s not a problem in the UK and she was appalled at police officers being attacked at the recent BLM ‘riots’ (her words) in London.
Made me realise that if you live in deepest Suffolk, are in your 70s and only read the Daily Mail and watch Sky News - chances are you have a very different world view to me!!!
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 06:49 - Jun 24 with 2535 views
If Black LIves Matter is about all lives they could make their message a bit more clear by saying Lives Matter, or All Lives Matter.
There were well over 1000 comments on The Times article on this flypast and the vast majority were saying there was nothing wrong with it - a view sort of confirmed by the police as there is nothing to press charges about.
I don't think the vast majority of Times readers are ignorant racists - its just they don't necessarily agree with the nuanced opinion that you don't have to say 'white lives matter' as its never been an issue.... something a few million people living in poverty take issue with.... not to mention the inherent ignorant assumption that Black Lives are the only ones being oppressed or murdered by the system.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 06:49 - Jun 24 by ElephantintheRoom
If Black LIves Matter is about all lives they could make their message a bit more clear by saying Lives Matter, or All Lives Matter.
There were well over 1000 comments on The Times article on this flypast and the vast majority were saying there was nothing wrong with it - a view sort of confirmed by the police as there is nothing to press charges about.
I don't think the vast majority of Times readers are ignorant racists - its just they don't necessarily agree with the nuanced opinion that you don't have to say 'white lives matter' as its never been an issue.... something a few million people living in poverty take issue with.... not to mention the inherent ignorant assumption that Black Lives are the only ones being oppressed or murdered by the system.
Oh dear.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 06:49 - Jun 24 by ElephantintheRoom
If Black LIves Matter is about all lives they could make their message a bit more clear by saying Lives Matter, or All Lives Matter.
There were well over 1000 comments on The Times article on this flypast and the vast majority were saying there was nothing wrong with it - a view sort of confirmed by the police as there is nothing to press charges about.
I don't think the vast majority of Times readers are ignorant racists - its just they don't necessarily agree with the nuanced opinion that you don't have to say 'white lives matter' as its never been an issue.... something a few million people living in poverty take issue with.... not to mention the inherent ignorant assumption that Black Lives are the only ones being oppressed or murdered by the system.
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Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 08:21 - Jun 24 with 2487 views
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 14:52 - Jun 23 by BryanPlug
[content removed at owner's request]
Ironically, though, I imagine the Burnley twerp and his ilk are precisely the sort who hold all Muslims responsible when an individual Muslim commits an act of terror.
Burnley fans not apologising for plane... on 06:49 - Jun 24 by ElephantintheRoom
If Black LIves Matter is about all lives they could make their message a bit more clear by saying Lives Matter, or All Lives Matter.
There were well over 1000 comments on The Times article on this flypast and the vast majority were saying there was nothing wrong with it - a view sort of confirmed by the police as there is nothing to press charges about.
I don't think the vast majority of Times readers are ignorant racists - its just they don't necessarily agree with the nuanced opinion that you don't have to say 'white lives matter' as its never been an issue.... something a few million people living in poverty take issue with.... not to mention the inherent ignorant assumption that Black Lives are the only ones being oppressed or murdered by the system.
"If Black LIves Matter is about all lives they could make their message a bit more clear by saying Lives Matter, or All Lives Matter."
How can people get mad about this and yet put absolutely zero thought into the words they use.
The phrase is not "Black lives matter more than others" or "Black lives matter, ignore all the rest".
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