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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:09 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
BLM being anti-establishment and anti-capitalist doesn't make you uncomfortable? Then why have you spoken out against the BLM movement being anti-establishment in this very thread?
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:20 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
Their goal is to end racism in all its forms, including structural and systemic racism. Being anti-establishment and anti-capitalist is the logical position for an organisation with such an aim. Racism isn't just about individual people's attitudes.
I get your logic. Assuming you're right, I just think that bolting on being anti-capitalist will lose the movement many supporters who would have otherwise been there for them. It risks a messgae of to be anti-racist you have to be anti-capitlist, which is incorrect and self defeating. (I speak as someone who's questionned capitalism's worth many times on here)
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:24 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
And it hasn't eradicated racism in football in the UK, so even with a very limited remit it hasn't been successful. And even if it had, it wouldn't have made life any better for 99.9999% of Black people in the UK given how few of them are professional footballers. I'm not sure what your example was intended to demonstrate other than that you like Kick it Out because it's not too intrusive and doesn't have a wider political agenda.
[Post edited 16 Sep 2020 10:29]
No I am saying its possible to make a stand and educate without as example cordoning off parts of a city which leads to the demise of a civil society.
I don't get the BLM or nothing agenda that seems to be out there.
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:32 - Sep 16 by giant_stow
I get your logic. Assuming you're right, I just think that bolting on being anti-capitalist will lose the movement many supporters who would have otherwise been there for them. It risks a messgae of to be anti-racist you have to be anti-capitlist, which is incorrect and self defeating. (I speak as someone who's questionned capitalism's worth many times on here)
I would disagree that it's incorrect. I think if you're genuinely anti-racist then being anti-capitalist goes hand in hand, at least capitalism in its current guise. You cannot bring about genuine equality for people of colour whilst maintaining the current political and economic status quo. I understand that makes people uncomfortable and puts them off, but then I'd argue those people only support the cause in a tokenistic way.
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:39 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley
No I am saying its possible to make a stand and educate without as example cordoning off parts of a city which leads to the demise of a civil society.
I don't get the BLM or nothing agenda that seems to be out there.
I'm not sure using an unsuccessful example of tackling racism in a very specific context is really helping your argument here, mate. Re-read my long post on the previous page and then you might understand why more than just putting up posters is needed to fulfil the aim of creating racial equality.
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:43 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
I would disagree that it's incorrect. I think if you're genuinely anti-racist then being anti-capitalist goes hand in hand, at least capitalism in its current guise. You cannot bring about genuine equality for people of colour whilst maintaining the current political and economic status quo. I understand that makes people uncomfortable and puts them off, but then I'd argue those people only support the cause in a tokenistic way.
You seem to be suggesting that there is some monolithic block which will condemn anyone who does not fall in line with their (supposed)absolute doctrine.
I suspect this is your subtle (flawed)way of bringing up the debate, without nailing your colours (no pun) to the mast.
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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:01 - Sep 16 with 5801 views
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:54 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
What?
Well driving a merc living in a tax haven and getting paid 40 mill a year is anti capitalism yeah? So he obviously doesn't support BLM well not in your eyes anyway
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:01 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley
Well driving a merc living in a tax haven and getting paid 40 mill a year is anti capitalism yeah? So he obviously doesn't support BLM well not in your eyes anyway
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:43 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
I would disagree that it's incorrect. I think if you're genuinely anti-racist then being anti-capitalist goes hand in hand, at least capitalism in its current guise. You cannot bring about genuine equality for people of colour whilst maintaining the current political and economic status quo. I understand that makes people uncomfortable and puts them off, but then I'd argue those people only support the cause in a tokenistic way.
hmm deep stuff and I'm busy - see your point, but I would argue that a highly regulated capitalist system should be able to cater for complete equality of opportunity for all. I'd also say the movement actually *needs* tokenistic supporters - not everyone can back a cause wholeheartedly, but that doesn't mean their 'support' is worthless. In fact, accepting grey areas in public life and opinion will be a cruical part of moving away from the current harmful polarisation in the world.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:03 - Sep 16 by giant_stow
hmm deep stuff and I'm busy - see your point, but I would argue that a highly regulated capitalist system should be able to cater for complete equality of opportunity for all. I'd also say the movement actually *needs* tokenistic supporters - not everyone can back a cause wholeheartedly, but that doesn't mean their 'support' is worthless. In fact, accepting grey areas in public life and opinion will be a cruical part of moving away from the current harmful polarisation in the world.
Equality of opportunity alone isn't sufficient though, since in practice access to opportunities is dictated by an individual's material circumstances. The kind of capitalist system that could meaningfully offer greater substantive equality would look nothing like capitalism as we know it.
You have to be really careful. It's the same as XR.
At the end of the day some people will take it the wrong way but so long as you are comfortable and happy with your stance then you can tell them to quieten down.
Don't feel you have to support an organisation even if you agree with the message.
Stand-up for what you believe. Don't let shouty angry people push you around.
Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:51 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley
Like Lewis Hamilton as example?
The only criticism you could level at Mr Hamilton is the development of his mid Atlantic accent he seems to have acquired. To be fair to him he’s tried damn hard to get the message (he’s suffered abuse whilst karting at a very young age and since) over by using his influence.
I stand by the accent though.
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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:21 - Sep 16 with 5766 views
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:03 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
Genuine question, when the system is rigged against people of colour and perpetuates the ongoing unequal treatment of people of colour and the establishment is there to maintain and protect such a system, why would committed anti-racists be anything other than anti-establishment?
I've been through this before but I'll go there again. Racism is not just some knuckle dragger making monkey noises at a Black footballer. It's not even just Black people being proportionately WAY more likely to be pulled over or stopped and searched by the police. Racism is also that, within developed nations and across the world, people of colour are far more likely to be living in poverty. They are far less likely to access private education or get into Oxbridge, in the UK context. They are under-represented in highly paid executive roles. Making individuals aware of their own behaviour won't change those things. Capitalism as a system is based on inequality and our political institutions are set up to essentially maintain those inequalities. Committed anti-racists have every right to be anti-capitalists, in fact it's the only logical position to take.
If that makes you uncomfortable you are probably more concerned about maintaining a society that fundamentally treats people of colour worse than white people than you are about bringing about genuine equality for people of colour. Whether that makes you a racist or not is a rather nuanced issue, but it probably means you aren't really all that committed to combating racism in anything other than a lip service way. It then becomes a question of whether, if you don't really support anti-racism, you are actually tacitly supporting racism.
'They are far less likely to access private education or get into Oxbridge, in the UK context.'
Care to define that a little?
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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:25 - Sep 16 with 5777 views
It’s extremely telling of a lot of our society that a movement which calls for racial equality is being accused of being ‘Marxist’ or whatever. Surely racial issues effect people across the political spectrum and anyone looking to criticise BLM has to actively look for negatives in a predominantly positive movement. Every movement will have bad apples, of course. But I support BLM and what they stand for even though I’m far from a Marxist etc. Anyone who opposes the movement should actually question what their true motivations are, and if they still oppose it, then maybe there’s even more reason for BLM to exist.
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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:33 - Sep 16 with 5742 views
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:10 - Sep 16 by Herbivore
Equality of opportunity alone isn't sufficient though, since in practice access to opportunities is dictated by an individual's material circumstances. The kind of capitalist system that could meaningfully offer greater substantive equality would look nothing like capitalism as we know it.
Rubbish, equality of opportunity is everything, it is purely down to personal ambition, drive, want and need to grab those opportunities.
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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:38 - Sep 16 with 5717 views
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 09:49 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley
No I am definitely talking about them as a movement.
No normal sane person would support the obvious demeaning, and discriminating of people that are just of a different coloured skin, that's surely a given. But they've in my eyes become all that's bad in the fight for the end to discrimination.
Extreme and anti establishment is what I see and yes its possibly the minority that chase police down streets in London intimidating them but its also the minority of police that put pressure on peoples necks ending in their deaths.
"No normal sane person would support the obvious demeaning, and discriminating of people that are just of a different coloured skin, that's surely a given"
No unfortunately it is not a given, if it was there would have been no need for a BLM movement in the first place.
[Post edited 16 Sep 2020 12:21]
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Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:39 - Sep 16 with 5714 views
Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:33 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper
Rubbish, equality of opportunity is everything, it is purely down to personal ambition, drive, want and need to grab those opportunities.
Fair play, that's one of the daftest things I've read on here in a long time. Access to opportunities still very much depends on which side of the tracks you were born including, but not limited to, which skin/body you were given.
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