| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement 09:31 - Sep 16 with 62605 views | Barneycurley |
and not be considered a racist? |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:16 - Sep 16 with 6424 views | eireblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:07 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
No problem, surely mixed ethnicity is correct? There is only one race is there not? |
You have avoided the question.
This is intellectual cowardice. |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:19 - Sep 16 with 6420 views | GaryCooper |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:16 - Sep 16 by eireblue |
You have avoided the question.
This is intellectual cowardice. |
What question brains? |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:22 - Sep 16 with 6406 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:03 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Genuine question, when the system is rigged against people of colour and perpetuates the ongoing unequal treatment of people of colour and the establishment is there to maintain and protect such a system, why would committed anti-racists be anything other than anti-establishment?
I've been through this before but I'll go there again. Racism is not just some knuckle dragger making monkey noises at a Black footballer. It's not even just Black people being proportionately WAY more likely to be pulled over or stopped and searched by the police. Racism is also that, within developed nations and across the world, people of colour are far more likely to be living in poverty. They are far less likely to access private education or get into Oxbridge, in the UK context. They are under-represented in highly paid executive roles. Making individuals aware of their own behaviour won't change those things. Capitalism as a system is based on inequality and our political institutions are set up to essentially maintain those inequalities. Committed anti-racists have every right to be anti-capitalists, in fact it's the only logical position to take.
If that makes you uncomfortable you are probably more concerned about maintaining a society that fundamentally treats people of colour worse than white people than you are about bringing about genuine equality for people of colour. Whether that makes you a racist or not is a rather nuanced issue, but it probably means you aren't really all that committed to combating racism in anything other than a lip service way. It then becomes a question of whether, if you don't really support anti-racism, you are actually tacitly supporting racism. |
socio-economic in equality is distinct from racism. socio-economic inequality has many sources, not just racism, and affects many communities not just bame communities. trying to make socio-economic inequality and racism one and the same diminishes a proper understanding of racism.
racism is bad; we have too much socio-economic inequality. but socio-economic inequality in itself is not proof of racism. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:22 - Sep 16 with 6407 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:48 - Sep 16 by Ewan_Oozami |
I suspect they come from gov.org - however, cherry picking of stats to reinforce/refute arguments (and this applies to all sides) should lead to discussion as to what those stats really indicate, and are we drawing appropriate conclusions, rather than just saying 'my numbers are better than your numbers'.
And whenever I see percentages used, I always ask, 'percent of what?' |
Yes, it's simply a list of figures where the 'white' value is lower than the 'ethnic' value, with no attempt to interpret or justify relevance.
Take the university stats for example. Entry figures on their own are not particularly interesting. Yes they show that, as a whole, there is good relative access to University for those from ethnic groups. And that has to be a good thing. But then as students progress through university, those from ethnic backgrounds underperform relatively compared to white students.
That seems strange when even those ethnic students entering with with top grades seem to lag behind students from white backgrounds who entered with lower grades. And then the employment stats post university show a similar skew towards white students doing relatively better than all other ethnic groups. So what's going on there? I don't know the answer. Socio-economic groupings tend to be mentioned as one of the key drivers, but that's probably only part of the picture.
We see the same picture with women who proportionately get fewer opportunities the higher they progress through the university pyramid. There are no shortage of female undergraduate entries, but proportionally fewer post grads, even fewer lecturers, even fewer professors, even fewer pro vice chancellors, even fewer Vice Chancellors, etc. I this case it a complex interplay of socio-economic factors, not least because women still play the dominant role in child care. Point being, you'd understand none of that from the entry sats alone. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:23 - Sep 16 with 6398 views | eireblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:19 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
What question brains? |
So you lack reading comprehension or are just an intellectual coward? | | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:27 - Sep 16 with 6392 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:32 - Sep 16 by giant_stow |
I get your logic. Assuming you're right, I just think that bolting on being anti-capitalist will lose the movement many supporters who would have otherwise been there for them. It risks a messgae of to be anti-racist you have to be anti-capitlist, which is incorrect and self defeating. (I speak as someone who's questionned capitalism's worth many times on here) |
the current proper focus on racism will only have effect when it is incorporated into a policy programme adopted by people in government. that is true of all progressive movements - the campaigning and rioting phase has to be followed by a policy phase. it was true of the first civil rights movement. it's yet another reason why biden winning is so critical. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:28 - Sep 16 with 6392 views | HARRY10 |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:11 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley |
No, I stated that as example in the football in the UK the kick it out campaign was to eradicate racism in the game starting in the UK. So I was talking about footballs response to racism not the wider worlds response even in just sport. |
I suspect it was more of a case to placate sponsors and the project a good image, rather than it being something motivated by equality alone.
Football stadia in the UK have become almost church like where children with cancer are paraded on the pitch and a minutes applause is carried out almost before every the game, and during it, for some departed soul.
But never a question as to why some feel hostile to others of a different skin colour, or sexuality.
'When I fed the poor they called me a saint, when I asked why there are the poor they called me a communist and threw me into jail' |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:28 - Sep 16 with 6390 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:22 - Sep 16 by lowhouseblue |
socio-economic in equality is distinct from racism. socio-economic inequality has many sources, not just racism, and affects many communities not just bame communities. trying to make socio-economic inequality and racism one and the same diminishes a proper understanding of racism.
racism is bad; we have too much socio-economic inequality. but socio-economic inequality in itself is not proof of racism. |
When socio-economic inequality disproportionately impacts people of colour and when the current system has proved itself incapable of making a substantive impact on these kinds of structural inequalities then it very much becomes tied up with racism and anti-racism. It's a weak argument to say that the system isn't racist per se, it just happens to perpetuate deep-rooted social and economic inequalities that disproportionately affect people of colour. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:41 - Sep 16 with 6350 views | SpruceMoose |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:23 - Sep 16 by eireblue |
So you lack reading comprehension or are just an intellectual coward? |
Why not both? |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:42 - Sep 16 with 6349 views | hampstead_blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:02 - Sep 16 by Bluedandy |
Oh here we go ... such a sweeping generalisation, devoid of nuance, with the predictable coup de grâce ...if you disagree then you're a closet racist hellbent on perpetuating a system of white privilege over all other ethnic groups.
We know the routine now .... it's the anti-capitalist anti-racist playing the race card, wow didn't see that one coming.
Yes in this country the capitalist system is so rigged in favour of white Brits that in 2018 employees of Chinese, Indian and Mixed or Multiple ethnicity all had higher median hourly pay than White British employees ....
In fact the system is so rigged that in higher education in 2019, 68% of A-level pupils from a Chinese ethnic background got a higher education place in the UK, the highest entry rate out of all ethnic groups
Entry rates in 2019 were higher for all ethnic groups compared with those in 2006 ...
And the biggest increase in entry rates between 2006 and 2019 was among Black pupils, from 21.6% to 44.5%
While 30.3% of White pupils got a higher education place, the lowest entry rate; in fact White pupils have had the lowest entry rates for 13 consecutive years since (and including) 2007.
Elsewhere between 2008/09 and 2018/19, 85 percent of deaths in police custody in England and Wales were white people, who make up 86 percent of the UK population.
In the same time period, black people accounted for eight percent of the UK deaths in police custody, while only making up three percent of the total population.
That figure is unacceptably high, but conversely British Asians who make up 8% of the UK population accounted for 3% of deaths in police custody in the same time period.
So statistically you are more likely to die in police custody if you're British white than British Asian.
In conclusion, when seeking an accurate measure of racism in the UK, beware snake oil Marxists peddling toxic conjecture as facts. |
POTD.
Be careful they get angry when you tell them that the left doesn't have all the answers. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:44 - Sep 16 with 6347 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:42 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
POTD.
Be careful they get angry when you tell them that the left doesn't have all the answers. |
Not really, because it doesn't say anything. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:46 - Sep 16 with 6341 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:28 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
When socio-economic inequality disproportionately impacts people of colour and when the current system has proved itself incapable of making a substantive impact on these kinds of structural inequalities then it very much becomes tied up with racism and anti-racism. It's a weak argument to say that the system isn't racist per se, it just happens to perpetuate deep-rooted social and economic inequalities that disproportionately affect people of colour. |
but again socio-economic inequality is explained by much more than racism. the persistent educational underachievement of black boys in the uk isn't significantly explained by the racism of teachers or education authorities, be that overt or implicit. it reflects a whole complex web of geographical, cultural and inter-generational issues. similarly the persistent educational underachievement of white working class boys in the north east reflects a similarly complex web of geographical, cultural and inter-generational issues. socio-economic inequality needs desperately to be reduced and that will hugely benefit bame communities, but it is wrong to argue that inequality is by itself evidence of current racism as it is usually discussed. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:47 - Sep 16 with 6337 views | hampstead_blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:08 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
STFU, you jumped up prick. |
We can all agree to disagree but can the tone be mellowed...
No need to be personal. Be frank and pragmatic, but that's not needed | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:47 - Sep 16 with 6334 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:47 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
We can all agree to disagree but can the tone be mellowed...
No need to be personal. Be frank and pragmatic, but that's not needed |
SUQ 
*runs away* | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:58 - Sep 16 with 6306 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:46 - Sep 16 by lowhouseblue |
but again socio-economic inequality is explained by much more than racism. the persistent educational underachievement of black boys in the uk isn't significantly explained by the racism of teachers or education authorities, be that overt or implicit. it reflects a whole complex web of geographical, cultural and inter-generational issues. similarly the persistent educational underachievement of white working class boys in the north east reflects a similarly complex web of geographical, cultural and inter-generational issues. socio-economic inequality needs desperately to be reduced and that will hugely benefit bame communities, but it is wrong to argue that inequality is by itself evidence of current racism as it is usually discussed. |
Reducing socio-economic inequality would be good for a range of communities, agreed. I think you are misunderstanding my argument slightly. I am not saying that socio-economic inequality is because of racism as such, what I am saying is that it is a legitimate goal of anti-racism to oppose the current system and to seek radical socio-economic change given the disproportionate impact on people of colour of the inequalities that such a system perpetuates.
And there are aspects of socio-economic inequality that can be traced back to historic (and some ongoing) racism, for example historic lack of educational and employment opportunities that become deeply ingrained within communities over time in a society where social mobility is poor.
So I would maintain that there are very close links between being anti-racist in anything other than a lip service or surface change way and being anti-capitalist or at least anti-capitalist in capitalism's current guise. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:08 - Sep 16 with 6288 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:58 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Reducing socio-economic inequality would be good for a range of communities, agreed. I think you are misunderstanding my argument slightly. I am not saying that socio-economic inequality is because of racism as such, what I am saying is that it is a legitimate goal of anti-racism to oppose the current system and to seek radical socio-economic change given the disproportionate impact on people of colour of the inequalities that such a system perpetuates.
And there are aspects of socio-economic inequality that can be traced back to historic (and some ongoing) racism, for example historic lack of educational and employment opportunities that become deeply ingrained within communities over time in a society where social mobility is poor.
So I would maintain that there are very close links between being anti-racist in anything other than a lip service or surface change way and being anti-capitalist or at least anti-capitalist in capitalism's current guise. |
You'd maintain being wrong then. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:08 - Sep 16 with 6285 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:08 - Sep 16 by ElephantintheRoom |
You'd maintain being wrong then. |
So much edge, still no point. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:22 - Sep 16 with 6263 views | SpruceMoose |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:47 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
We can all agree to disagree but can the tone be mellowed...
No need to be personal. Be frank and pragmatic, but that's not needed |
That's laughable coming from you... | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:22 - Sep 16 with 6269 views | factual_blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:42 - Sep 16 by brazil1982 |
Not on this forum. |
That might be because racism breaks TWTD's terms and conditions.
Ageism, on the other hand, seems perfectly acceptable. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:59 - Sep 16 with 6228 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:58 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Reducing socio-economic inequality would be good for a range of communities, agreed. I think you are misunderstanding my argument slightly. I am not saying that socio-economic inequality is because of racism as such, what I am saying is that it is a legitimate goal of anti-racism to oppose the current system and to seek radical socio-economic change given the disproportionate impact on people of colour of the inequalities that such a system perpetuates.
And there are aspects of socio-economic inequality that can be traced back to historic (and some ongoing) racism, for example historic lack of educational and employment opportunities that become deeply ingrained within communities over time in a society where social mobility is poor.
So I would maintain that there are very close links between being anti-racist in anything other than a lip service or surface change way and being anti-capitalist or at least anti-capitalist in capitalism's current guise. |
agree completely with your first para. but doing something about gets you into the area of practical policy intervention in eduction, training, community support etc. calling out racism alone doesn't affect those things. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 15:02 - Sep 16 with 6223 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:59 - Sep 16 by lowhouseblue |
agree completely with your first para. but doing something about gets you into the area of practical policy intervention in eduction, training, community support etc. calling out racism alone doesn't affect those things. |
The BLM organisation do seem to be veering into that territory and legitimately so imo. That brings us round to where the conversation began really. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 15:13 - Sep 16 with 6202 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:42 - Sep 16 by giant_stow |
Yeah I can certainly understand the thinking. My problem is on a pragmatic level: persuading people that they have to be anti-capitalists before they can be anti-racists will make real change next to impossible. You don’t persuade people by alienating them first and like or not, the moment you start talking about capitalism, many switch off. |
The only people talking about the capitalism/anti-capitalist aspect are the anti-BLM people. |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 15:15 - Sep 16 with 6194 views | hampstead_blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:20 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Their goal is to end racism in all its forms, including structural and systemic racism. Being anti-establishment and anti-capitalist is the logical position for an organisation with such an aim. Racism isn't just about individual people's attitudes. |
This is why BLM will fail.
Your hard left political ambitions are proven to fail and create misery on an epic scale.
Capitalism put the screen in front of you. The water in the tap. The food on your table.
The establishment allows us to function and live safely and with agreed freedoms.
You will tear that down into chaos and deprivation.
By aligning all of those hideous beliefs with BLM you are doing damage to the message of 'end racism'.
It's the same with XR. The core message is a trojan horse for you and the hard left.
That is why you won't change anything. The establishment and capitalist society will simply move you along.
To get real traction and change, the arguments for a cleaner climate and end to racism need to be separated from the hard lefts wet dream.
I'm not racist and I care deeply about the environment.
I actively despise and loathe the failed and cruel systems promoted by the hard left. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 15:25 - Sep 16 with 6186 views | BlueBadger |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 14:22 - Sep 16 by factual_blue |
That might be because racism breaks TWTD's terms and conditions.
Ageism, on the other hand, seems perfectly acceptable. |
Give over, you silly old git. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 15:37 - Sep 16 with 6175 views | factual_blue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 15:25 - Sep 16 by BlueBadger |
Give over, you silly old git. |
I have forwarded your post to the shadowy, menacing organisations who monitor this sort of thing. | |
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