| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement 09:31 - Sep 16 with 62600 views | Barneycurley |
and not be considered a racist? |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:43 - Sep 16 with 4458 views | LankHenners |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:33 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
Rubbish, equality of opportunity is everything, it is purely down to personal ambition, drive, want and need to grab those opportunities. |
Even the most cursory of research would tell you you're talking nonsense from a clearly outdated view of the world. It's that sort of language/attitude that has been holding people back/putting roadblocks in the way of progress.
Sad to see some people are still so ignorant in an age where so much information is available. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:49 - Sep 16 with 4446 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:25 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
'They are far less likely to access private education or get into Oxbridge, in the UK context.'
Care to define that a little? |
Although numbers are increasing, Oxbridge still admits a lower proposition of BAME students than the average across the University sector, for example. As recently as a couple of years ago, under 2% of students at Oxbridge identified as Black.
https://theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of
Bit rich for you to be asking such questions after you disappeared entirely when asked to back up another of your outlandish claims the other day. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:02 - Sep 16 with 4424 views | Bluedandy |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:03 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Genuine question, when the system is rigged against people of colour and perpetuates the ongoing unequal treatment of people of colour and the establishment is there to maintain and protect such a system, why would committed anti-racists be anything other than anti-establishment?
I've been through this before but I'll go there again. Racism is not just some knuckle dragger making monkey noises at a Black footballer. It's not even just Black people being proportionately WAY more likely to be pulled over or stopped and searched by the police. Racism is also that, within developed nations and across the world, people of colour are far more likely to be living in poverty. They are far less likely to access private education or get into Oxbridge, in the UK context. They are under-represented in highly paid executive roles. Making individuals aware of their own behaviour won't change those things. Capitalism as a system is based on inequality and our political institutions are set up to essentially maintain those inequalities. Committed anti-racists have every right to be anti-capitalists, in fact it's the only logical position to take.
If that makes you uncomfortable you are probably more concerned about maintaining a society that fundamentally treats people of colour worse than white people than you are about bringing about genuine equality for people of colour. Whether that makes you a racist or not is a rather nuanced issue, but it probably means you aren't really all that committed to combating racism in anything other than a lip service way. It then becomes a question of whether, if you don't really support anti-racism, you are actually tacitly supporting racism. |
Oh here we go ... such a sweeping generalisation, devoid of nuance, with the predictable coup de grâce ...if you disagree then you're a closet racist hellbent on perpetuating a system of white privilege over all other ethnic groups.
We know the routine now .... it's the anti-capitalist anti-racist playing the race card, wow didn't see that one coming.
Yes in this country the capitalist system is so rigged in favour of white Brits that in 2018 employees of Chinese, Indian and Mixed or Multiple ethnicity all had higher median hourly pay than White British employees ....
In fact the system is so rigged that in higher education in 2019, 68% of A-level pupils from a Chinese ethnic background got a higher education place in the UK, the highest entry rate out of all ethnic groups
Entry rates in 2019 were higher for all ethnic groups compared with those in 2006 ...
And the biggest increase in entry rates between 2006 and 2019 was among Black pupils, from 21.6% to 44.5%
While 30.3% of White pupils got a higher education place, the lowest entry rate; in fact White pupils have had the lowest entry rates for 13 consecutive years since (and including) 2007.
Elsewhere between 2008/09 and 2018/19, 85 percent of deaths in police custody in England and Wales were white people, who make up 86 percent of the UK population.
In the same time period, black people accounted for eight percent of the UK deaths in police custody, while only making up three percent of the total population.
That figure is unacceptably high, but conversely British Asians who make up 8% of the UK population accounted for 3% of deaths in police custody in the same time period.
So statistically you are more likely to die in police custody if you're British white than British Asian.
In conclusion, when seeking an accurate measure of racism in the UK, beware snake oil Marxists peddling toxic conjecture as facts. |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:02 - Sep 16 with 4422 views | Vic |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:20 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Their goal is to end racism in all its forms, including structural and systemic racism. Being anti-establishment and anti-capitalist is the logical position for an organisation with such an aim. Racism isn't just about individual people's attitudes. |
Agreed. I’m left with the question ‘so what would success actually look like for BLM?’ |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:24 - Sep 16 with 4381 views | LankHenners |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:02 - Sep 16 by Bluedandy |
Oh here we go ... such a sweeping generalisation, devoid of nuance, with the predictable coup de grâce ...if you disagree then you're a closet racist hellbent on perpetuating a system of white privilege over all other ethnic groups.
We know the routine now .... it's the anti-capitalist anti-racist playing the race card, wow didn't see that one coming.
Yes in this country the capitalist system is so rigged in favour of white Brits that in 2018 employees of Chinese, Indian and Mixed or Multiple ethnicity all had higher median hourly pay than White British employees ....
In fact the system is so rigged that in higher education in 2019, 68% of A-level pupils from a Chinese ethnic background got a higher education place in the UK, the highest entry rate out of all ethnic groups
Entry rates in 2019 were higher for all ethnic groups compared with those in 2006 ...
And the biggest increase in entry rates between 2006 and 2019 was among Black pupils, from 21.6% to 44.5%
While 30.3% of White pupils got a higher education place, the lowest entry rate; in fact White pupils have had the lowest entry rates for 13 consecutive years since (and including) 2007.
Elsewhere between 2008/09 and 2018/19, 85 percent of deaths in police custody in England and Wales were white people, who make up 86 percent of the UK population.
In the same time period, black people accounted for eight percent of the UK deaths in police custody, while only making up three percent of the total population.
That figure is unacceptably high, but conversely British Asians who make up 8% of the UK population accounted for 3% of deaths in police custody in the same time period.
So statistically you are more likely to die in police custody if you're British white than British Asian.
In conclusion, when seeking an accurate measure of racism in the UK, beware snake oil Marxists peddling toxic conjecture as facts. |
Arf at accusing someone of a lack of nuance then listing a load of context-less or warped statistics. Going by the language you use, I expect these have all been lifted straight of a heavily-biased right-wing publication. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:31 - Sep 16 with 4366 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:17 - Sep 16 by giant_stow |
I didn't realise BLM is an explicity anti-establishment and anti-capitalist group. For me that makes it harder for them to succeed. They'd have more chance of 'winning' with a simpler goal which more people could get behind. |
Mate, when you consider the establishment and capitalism’s roles in racism, and the profiteering off non-whites, you can understand their anti establishment and anti capitalism stance. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:37 - Sep 16 with 4347 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:33 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
Rubbish, equality of opportunity is everything, it is purely down to personal ambition, drive, want and need to grab those opportunities. |
You’re a prick mate.
You haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:41 - Sep 16 with 4340 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:02 - Sep 16 by Bluedandy |
Oh here we go ... such a sweeping generalisation, devoid of nuance, with the predictable coup de grâce ...if you disagree then you're a closet racist hellbent on perpetuating a system of white privilege over all other ethnic groups.
We know the routine now .... it's the anti-capitalist anti-racist playing the race card, wow didn't see that one coming.
Yes in this country the capitalist system is so rigged in favour of white Brits that in 2018 employees of Chinese, Indian and Mixed or Multiple ethnicity all had higher median hourly pay than White British employees ....
In fact the system is so rigged that in higher education in 2019, 68% of A-level pupils from a Chinese ethnic background got a higher education place in the UK, the highest entry rate out of all ethnic groups
Entry rates in 2019 were higher for all ethnic groups compared with those in 2006 ...
And the biggest increase in entry rates between 2006 and 2019 was among Black pupils, from 21.6% to 44.5%
While 30.3% of White pupils got a higher education place, the lowest entry rate; in fact White pupils have had the lowest entry rates for 13 consecutive years since (and including) 2007.
Elsewhere between 2008/09 and 2018/19, 85 percent of deaths in police custody in England and Wales were white people, who make up 86 percent of the UK population.
In the same time period, black people accounted for eight percent of the UK deaths in police custody, while only making up three percent of the total population.
That figure is unacceptably high, but conversely British Asians who make up 8% of the UK population accounted for 3% of deaths in police custody in the same time period.
So statistically you are more likely to die in police custody if you're British white than British Asian.
In conclusion, when seeking an accurate measure of racism in the UK, beware snake oil Marxists peddling toxic conjecture as facts. |
All you've done is posted some cherry picked stats that don't really address my core argument. I'm not even sure what your argument is as you've not formed one. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:42 - Sep 16 with 4337 views | giant_stow |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:31 - Sep 16 by NewcyBlue |
Mate, when you consider the establishment and capitalism’s roles in racism, and the profiteering off non-whites, you can understand their anti establishment and anti capitalism stance. |
Yeah I can certainly understand the thinking. My problem is on a pragmatic level: persuading people that they have to be anti-capitalists before they can be anti-racists will make real change next to impossible. You don’t persuade people by alienating them first and like or not, the moment you start talking about capitalism, many switch off. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:42 - Sep 16 with 4335 views | SpruceMoose |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:20 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Their goal is to end racism in all its forms, including structural and systemic racism. Being anti-establishment and anti-capitalist is the logical position for an organisation with such an aim. Racism isn't just about individual people's attitudes. |
Why oh why do people STILL not understand this? |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:45 - Sep 16 with 4330 views | Barneycurley |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:37 - Sep 16 by NewcyBlue |
You’re a prick mate.
You haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. |
Nice 1! You've done well there | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:46 - Sep 16 with 4327 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:42 - Sep 16 by giant_stow |
Yeah I can certainly understand the thinking. My problem is on a pragmatic level: persuading people that they have to be anti-capitalists before they can be anti-racists will make real change next to impossible. You don’t persuade people by alienating them first and like or not, the moment you start talking about capitalism, many switch off. |
That’s not what they’re saying at all.
They’re saying the root cause of all this can be traced back to the very backbone of capitalism.
Capitalism at the moment enables sweatshops in India, Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and many more countries.
This is also a problem in the here and now.
This is more than just a racism thing. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:47 - Sep 16 with 4324 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:45 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley |
Nice 1! You've done well there |
Thanks Barney. I think I got my point across. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:48 - Sep 16 with 4324 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:24 - Sep 16 by LankHenners |
Arf at accusing someone of a lack of nuance then listing a load of context-less or warped statistics. Going by the language you use, I expect these have all been lifted straight of a heavily-biased right-wing publication. |
I suspect they come from gov.org - however, cherry picking of stats to reinforce/refute arguments (and this applies to all sides) should lead to discussion as to what those stats really indicate, and are we drawing appropriate conclusions, rather than just saying 'my numbers are better than your numbers'.
And whenever I see percentages used, I always ask, 'percent of what?' |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:52 - Sep 16 with 4300 views | giant_stow |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:46 - Sep 16 by NewcyBlue |
That’s not what they’re saying at all.
They’re saying the root cause of all this can be traced back to the very backbone of capitalism.
Capitalism at the moment enables sweatshops in India, Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and many more countries.
This is also a problem in the here and now.
This is more than just a racism thing. |
Hmm I'm confused now, as Herbie is sure that that *is* what they're saying: that its a holistic struggle not just against racism, but also capitalism.
I agree with your disgust. My disagreement is how to get quick social change without having to persuade the population to be anti-capitalists first. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:55 - Sep 16 with 4290 views | SpruceMoose |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:25 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
'They are far less likely to access private education or get into Oxbridge, in the UK context.'
Care to define that a little? |
Care to define why you think the term 'mixed race' is 'outrageously offensive' a little? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:04 - Sep 16 with 4266 views | LankHenners |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:48 - Sep 16 by Ewan_Oozami |
I suspect they come from gov.org - however, cherry picking of stats to reinforce/refute arguments (and this applies to all sides) should lead to discussion as to what those stats really indicate, and are we drawing appropriate conclusions, rather than just saying 'my numbers are better than your numbers'.
And whenever I see percentages used, I always ask, 'percent of what?' |
Well probably originally yes, but you often see these sorts of stats posted sans context and they've clearly been collated and stuck together on some right-wing site somewhere. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:06 - Sep 16 with 4255 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:52 - Sep 16 by giant_stow |
Hmm I'm confused now, as Herbie is sure that that *is* what they're saying: that its a holistic struggle not just against racism, but also capitalism.
I agree with your disgust. My disagreement is how to get quick social change without having to persuade the population to be anti-capitalists first. |
Am I? I was responding to the OP's bemusement about BLM being anti-establishment with an explanation of why a progressive anti-racist movement would hold anti-establishment and anti-capitalist views. I stand by that argument and it's my own view that to be genuinely anti-racist requires you to also be anti-capitalist given how that system has created and perpetuated structural and systemic inequalities that disproportionately impact on people of colour. You don't eradicate that by sticking with the same system.
BLM, looking at their website, Express some similar views but are tempering their language so as not to explicitly say that they are an anti-capitalist organisation (thanks to Swanners for the link). That's probably sensible from a strategic point of view for the reasons you've put across but that doesn't mean the underlying arguments about changing the system aren't there in the background and ultimately that has to be the long term goal. Capitalism has shown that it can increase the overall wealth of a population but it cannot, or at least has not to date, fundamentally address structural inequality. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:06 - Sep 16 with 4254 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:55 - Sep 16 by SpruceMoose |
Care to define why you think the term 'mixed race' is 'outrageously offensive' a little? |
He can’t.
He’s too busy eating crayons whilst pushing broken biscuits into his nappy. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:07 - Sep 16 with 4251 views | GaryCooper |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:55 - Sep 16 by SpruceMoose |
Care to define why you think the term 'mixed race' is 'outrageously offensive' a little? |
No problem, surely mixed ethnicity is correct? There is only one race is there not? |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:08 - Sep 16 with 4240 views | GaryCooper |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:37 - Sep 16 by NewcyBlue |
You’re a prick mate.
You haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. |
STFU, you jumped up prick. | | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:10 - Sep 16 with 4223 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:07 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
No problem, surely mixed ethnicity is correct? There is only one race is there not? |
Some people prefer mixed heritage but your claim was that the term mixed race is 'utterly offensive'. That's simply not true and a lot of people pointed that out to you and you ran away. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:13 - Sep 16 with 4210 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 12:52 - Sep 16 by giant_stow |
Hmm I'm confused now, as Herbie is sure that that *is* what they're saying: that its a holistic struggle not just against racism, but also capitalism.
I agree with your disgust. My disagreement is how to get quick social change without having to persuade the population to be anti-capitalists first. |
They’re not saying they’re anti-capitalist to be anti-capitalist. They’re saying they’re anti-capitalist because of the history of capitalism and because of everything that it is profiting from right now. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:14 - Sep 16 with 4200 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:08 - Sep 16 by GaryCooper |
STFU, you jumped up prick. |
Ok sweetcheeks. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 13:16 - Sep 16 with 4194 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 09:57 - Sep 16 by tractordownsouth |
It's absolutely fine to disagree with the rioting, as well as their additional policies such as abolishing capitalism.
But if you disagree with Black Lives Matter as a statement, then yes you are a racist. |
if you disagreed with black lives matter as a statement you would be a good deal more than a racist. you'd be a sociopath with a severe psychological problems. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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