| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement 09:31 - Sep 16 with 63014 views | Barneycurley |
and not be considered a racist? |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 22:01 - Sep 16 with 2830 views | Ryorry |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 21:55 - Sep 16 by eireblue |
Do you have a vote?
Pankhurst was horrified by the screams of women being force-fed during hunger strikes. In her autobiography she wrote: "I shall never while I live forget the suffering I experienced during the days when those cries were ringing in my ears." |
I was thinking of and referring to the current situation in the USA when I wrote that tbh, and pretty sure that the vast majority of BAME people with a vote there will be voting Biden anyway.
A lot more seems to be being demanded, in comparison with which the act of giving UK women the vote back in the day looks a pretty simple one. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 22:04 - Sep 16 with 2839 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 16:52 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
Agree.
All of the points you make would cause utter anarchy.
It will be like the film 'The Purge'.
The Hard left have stolen the cause and are soiling it with their own hatred and bile.
Maybe we need to cleanse the BLM of those smelly lefties who want chaos and ruin....... |
I wonder what BLM will look like once you have purged it of all the smelly lefties?
Will it be run by Priti Patel and only look after the interests of those members of the black community who happen to have made it into the upper echelons of western society?
The current model of capitalism has many flaws just as rampant communism imposed by authoritarian regimes does. However, capitalism does not have to promote huge inequalities. Neither do left-wing policies have to lead to corrupt authoritarian regimes dictating conditions for all.
Maybe something along the lines of Fairtrade and similar organisations but legislated through governance where profiteering at the expense of the poor is prevented would be what a fairer society would look like. Ultimately the goal of BLM is for black people to have the same freedom to walk around, drive around and live their lives, learn and progress as non-black people. It is horrific some of what is still readily seen if only you open your eyes to it. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 22:05 - Sep 16 with 2837 views | eireblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 21:29 - Sep 16 by Vic |
That’s the States, but I’m interested in what it all means here in the UK. The two situations are not the same - our police are not always saints, but I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the same as in the US. The impression I’m getting is that everywhere is treated the same and labeled the same by BLM, with little nuance - and that’s not a good.
Talk of defunding the police in the UK without a specific proposed alternative doesn’t get my vote I’m afraid. It’s easy to say what we’re against, but to say what the alternative looks like is a different thing. And at the moment I’m seeing a movement with little recognition of different situations and with few positive alternative policies.
I’m not against BLM and I abhor racism but I’d like to see a few more costed initiative and examples of where these policies are currently working. |
Worth reading about how knife crime was reduced in Scotland.
It wasn’t by giving the police more money for equipment. |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 22:18 - Sep 16 with 2816 views | eireblue |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 22:01 - Sep 16 by Ryorry |
I was thinking of and referring to the current situation in the USA when I wrote that tbh, and pretty sure that the vast majority of BAME people with a vote there will be voting Biden anyway.
A lot more seems to be being demanded, in comparison with which the act of giving UK women the vote back in the day looks a pretty simple one. |
I was more referring to your line
“I'm no historian but I can't recall rioting and revolution ever achieving anything long-lasting”
Unfortunately, people don’t really seem to learn lessons from history.
If people in power repress a minority, bad stuff typically happens.
It may seem a simple right to us.
Back in the day, there were riots, and women were put in prison, some went on hunger strike and were force fed, just for wanting the vote.
I would suggest, giving women the vote was a big deal.
Repression of women has been fairly consistent throughout human history.
Capitalism twinned with racism has only been around a few hundred years. | | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:00 - Sep 16 with 2780 views | IPS_wich |
I haven’t read through all of the comments, but my two cents worth.
I think you have to distinguish between the cause, the movement and the association.
If you disagree with the cause - that is the systematic discrimination of people based upon the skin is abhorrent - then yes that almost certainly makes you a racist.
If you disagree with the movement - that is a collective and global objection to highlight and address the cause then that either makes you a racist, a deliberate or obtuse contrarian or just someone really really ignorant - but probably most likely a racist.
If you disagree with the actions or words of those associated with the movement, then you have to be really clear what it is you disagree with and whether that in the big picture it really matters.
The BLM movement has its roots in left wing politics - and that is where I see the problem for some. Two of the extreme left philosophies are anti-capitalism and anarchism, and they attract a certain type that many people in western ‘capitalist’ societies instinctively disagree with. It’s no different the Extinction Rebellion movement, you can believe in the cause, support the movement but then object to some of those that choose to associate with the movement.
25 years ago when I was a student I participated in a few Anti Nazi League protests, but stopped going because they were always organised by the local branch of Socialist Worker who would get really sh1tty with you if you didn’t agree with their anti-capitalist view of the world. Didn’t stop me wearing the ANL badge on my coat and donating to them.
Anyway, the short of it, if you’ve read this and still disagree with the cause and the movement - then maybe have a long hard look in the mirror. But, if you instinctively and passionately believe in the cause and the movement; but are frustrated/disappointed that it has attracted associations that you don’t agree with - then that’s ok - just be very clear about what it is you mean. |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:13 - Sep 16 with 2768 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 21:29 - Sep 16 by Vic |
That’s the States, but I’m interested in what it all means here in the UK. The two situations are not the same - our police are not always saints, but I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the same as in the US. The impression I’m getting is that everywhere is treated the same and labeled the same by BLM, with little nuance - and that’s not a good.
Talk of defunding the police in the UK without a specific proposed alternative doesn’t get my vote I’m afraid. It’s easy to say what we’re against, but to say what the alternative looks like is a different thing. And at the moment I’m seeing a movement with little recognition of different situations and with few positive alternative policies.
I’m not against BLM and I abhor racism but I’d like to see a few more costed initiative and examples of where these policies are currently working. |
I seem to recall that you vote for a party that's been actively defunding the police though?
At least BLM is proposing using the money to address the root causes. |  | | |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:14 - Sep 16 with 2766 views | SpruceMoose |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:13 - Sep 16 by Clapham_Junction |
I seem to recall that you vote for a party that's been actively defunding the police though?
At least BLM is proposing using the money to address the root causes. |
I'm sure that's different somehow. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:20 - Sep 16 with 2748 views | Ryorry |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 22:18 - Sep 16 by eireblue |
I was more referring to your line
“I'm no historian but I can't recall rioting and revolution ever achieving anything long-lasting”
Unfortunately, people don’t really seem to learn lessons from history.
If people in power repress a minority, bad stuff typically happens.
It may seem a simple right to us.
Back in the day, there were riots, and women were put in prison, some went on hunger strike and were force fed, just for wanting the vote.
I would suggest, giving women the vote was a big deal.
Repression of women has been fairly consistent throughout human history.
Capitalism twinned with racism has only been around a few hundred years. |
I know what you mean, but my basic point was that asking supporters of BLM to participate in the overthrowing of capitalism is like asking a family to make an epic film on the scale of Star Wars instead of a home movie. Over-facing people by presenting them with what seems a target so huge that it's unrealistic may put them off doing anything at all.
Last line was a bit of a throw away & referring again to a scale akin to the French Revolution or our 17thC civil war. Your references to the success of the Suffragettes in a way underlines my point that *comparatively* small single issue campaigns may well be successful, and act as stepping stones to further gains in future.
Edit - btw, after over 65 years of education, I'm pretty well read re the Suffragette movement thanks. My gratitude to them has been one of the main drivers in ensuring I've got myself down to the polling station (or had a postal vote) for every GE & EU election in the last 50-something years, and for most of the local elections in that time too. [Post edited 16 Sep 2020 23:40]
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:22 - Sep 16 with 2752 views | jeera |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 21:29 - Sep 16 by Vic |
That’s the States, but I’m interested in what it all means here in the UK. The two situations are not the same - our police are not always saints, but I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the same as in the US. The impression I’m getting is that everywhere is treated the same and labeled the same by BLM, with little nuance - and that’s not a good.
Talk of defunding the police in the UK without a specific proposed alternative doesn’t get my vote I’m afraid. It’s easy to say what we’re against, but to say what the alternative looks like is a different thing. And at the moment I’m seeing a movement with little recognition of different situations and with few positive alternative policies.
I’m not against BLM and I abhor racism but I’d like to see a few more costed initiative and examples of where these policies are currently working. |
Vic, the link you gave when replying to Swansea's post on police defunding was on the States. That was the context of the link you gave.*
But as others have helpfully pointed out, the UK government of the past decade have significantly reduced police funding.
As well as services to communities, directly through cuts, so a double whammy in many ways.
There is no point to be argued here and it's disappointing to see you and others scratching around trying to create something to argue against.
*from your link:
"Right now, Minneapolis and cities across our country are on fire, and our people are hurting – the violence against Black bodies felt in the ongoing mass disobedience, all while we grapple with a pandemic that is disproportionately affecting, infecting, and killing us." [Post edited 16 Sep 2020 23:24]
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 04:59 - Sep 17 with 2681 views | bluelagos |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 10:39 - Sep 16 by Barneycurley |
No I am saying its possible to make a stand and educate without as example cordoning off parts of a city which leads to the demise of a civil society.
I don't get the BLM or nothing agenda that seems to be out there. |
Of course it is posssible to support the cause of equal rights for people of colour without supporting all of the methods of the BLM movement. Much the same as the green / XR issues.
But for those who do critcise the methods being adopted I simply ask not what methods ger your approval, but what have you actually done to assist in the movement, over the years?
Because if the answer is sfa, then it is pretty clear that your arguments are nothing more than a pathetic attempt at trolling rather than a genuine belief in challenging racism.
So Barney, do please enlighten us as to what you have personally done to push the rights of people of colour... |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 05:21 - Sep 17 with 2675 views | Barneycurley |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 04:59 - Sep 17 by bluelagos |
Of course it is posssible to support the cause of equal rights for people of colour without supporting all of the methods of the BLM movement. Much the same as the green / XR issues.
But for those who do critcise the methods being adopted I simply ask not what methods ger your approval, but what have you actually done to assist in the movement, over the years?
Because if the answer is sfa, then it is pretty clear that your arguments are nothing more than a pathetic attempt at trolling rather than a genuine belief in challenging racism.
So Barney, do please enlighten us as to what you have personally done to push the rights of people of colour... |
Well I've proactively employed three indigenous people into my business, helped one of them gain state funded housing, enabled another to take paid time away from work (which wasn't in their remit to take) to deal with serious domestic violence, I've supported numerous others through mental health guidance to seek counselling over the years also.
So I would say I have done a reasonable amount and yes I disagree with the way BLM go about their business. That ok? That make my concerns more legitimate in your eyes? | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 05:25 - Sep 17 with 2668 views | bluelagos |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 05:21 - Sep 17 by Barneycurley |
Well I've proactively employed three indigenous people into my business, helped one of them gain state funded housing, enabled another to take paid time away from work (which wasn't in their remit to take) to deal with serious domestic violence, I've supported numerous others through mental health guidance to seek counselling over the years also.
So I would say I have done a reasonable amount and yes I disagree with the way BLM go about their business. That ok? That make my concerns more legitimate in your eyes? |
Yep it does.
Sadly many who post on here about BLM are nothing but trolls. And I think the question I asked it perfectly valid, as is your response. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:26 - Sep 17 with 2607 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 05:21 - Sep 17 by Barneycurley |
Well I've proactively employed three indigenous people into my business, helped one of them gain state funded housing, enabled another to take paid time away from work (which wasn't in their remit to take) to deal with serious domestic violence, I've supported numerous others through mental health guidance to seek counselling over the years also.
So I would say I have done a reasonable amount and yes I disagree with the way BLM go about their business. That ok? That make my concerns more legitimate in your eyes? |
What would be an acceptable way for them to go about their business in your eyes? |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:31 - Sep 17 with 2603 views | Vic |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:13 - Sep 16 by Clapham_Junction |
I seem to recall that you vote for a party that's been actively defunding the police though?
At least BLM is proposing using the money to address the root causes. |
Not sure that anyone, even my family knows which way I voted! I doubt it was the way you think it was though, |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:34 - Sep 17 with 2602 views | Vic |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 21:56 - Sep 16 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"That's the states". 4 years ago Dalian Atkinson was repeatedly tasered until he was dead. The officers involved are facing charges which they still have not had heard. There are videos of Suffolk Constabulary pulling over drivers because they are black.
It happens here. |
Oh yes, for sure. I’m not for a moment denying that things happen here that shouldn’t. But it’s not at the same level as the States and I don’t think the two places should be conflated. It doesn’t help the case of BLM any good at all to suggest that it’s the same the world over. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:45 - Sep 17 with 2596 views | Barneycurley |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:26 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
What would be an acceptable way for them to go about their business in your eyes? |
Civil disobedience is 1 thing, that was able amongst other things to push change in the past and we now have the internet which obviously can be used for good and to help drive change although obviously the internet was invented by a capitalist some time ago which I assume on your eyes rules that out.
I'll pose you a question... My line of work has allowed me and the company I work for employ and empower hundreds and thousands of indengeous Australians to gain meaningful and in world terms well paid work. It enables them to become better people and help the struggle to educate their own families. It allows them to become role models and to push their children towards better education
The indigenous Australians that work are many more times likely to avoid any time in prison, to live longer and more likely to lead enriched lives than their peers that aren't as lucky. This brought about by capitalism a company that makes money for shareholders.
You would prefer this not to happen? | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:59 - Sep 17 with 2586 views | DanTheMan |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:45 - Sep 17 by Barneycurley |
Civil disobedience is 1 thing, that was able amongst other things to push change in the past and we now have the internet which obviously can be used for good and to help drive change although obviously the internet was invented by a capitalist some time ago which I assume on your eyes rules that out.
I'll pose you a question... My line of work has allowed me and the company I work for employ and empower hundreds and thousands of indengeous Australians to gain meaningful and in world terms well paid work. It enables them to become better people and help the struggle to educate their own families. It allows them to become role models and to push their children towards better education
The indigenous Australians that work are many more times likely to avoid any time in prison, to live longer and more likely to lead enriched lives than their peers that aren't as lucky. This brought about by capitalism a company that makes money for shareholders.
You would prefer this not to happen? |
I don't get arguments like this to be totally honest.
You could make the same kind of arguments about Fuedalism, and I doubt anybody is going in a rush to go back to that either.
The main issue is that there is literally no other choice for those indigenous Australians, no other system they could be a part of as an alternative. They live in a capitalist society, so of course those with a job will fare better than those without, and be less likely to commit crime because they have income.
That doesn't actually prove that every other potential system, even with minor changes, is worse.
Also one could argue that capitalism was part of the reason they don't "own" the land in the first place. We colonised an island that was already populated and took their land. Seems a bit cheeky to now turn round and say "look, we gave them a job! Aren't we great!?" |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 08:01 - Sep 17 with 2582 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:45 - Sep 17 by Barneycurley |
Civil disobedience is 1 thing, that was able amongst other things to push change in the past and we now have the internet which obviously can be used for good and to help drive change although obviously the internet was invented by a capitalist some time ago which I assume on your eyes rules that out.
I'll pose you a question... My line of work has allowed me and the company I work for employ and empower hundreds and thousands of indengeous Australians to gain meaningful and in world terms well paid work. It enables them to become better people and help the struggle to educate their own families. It allows them to become role models and to push their children towards better education
The indigenous Australians that work are many more times likely to avoid any time in prison, to live longer and more likely to lead enriched lives than their peers that aren't as lucky. This brought about by capitalism a company that makes money for shareholders.
You would prefer this not to happen? |
That hasn't answered my question. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 08:05 - Sep 17 with 2577 views | Herbivore |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:59 - Sep 17 by DanTheMan |
I don't get arguments like this to be totally honest.
You could make the same kind of arguments about Fuedalism, and I doubt anybody is going in a rush to go back to that either.
The main issue is that there is literally no other choice for those indigenous Australians, no other system they could be a part of as an alternative. They live in a capitalist society, so of course those with a job will fare better than those without, and be less likely to commit crime because they have income.
That doesn't actually prove that every other potential system, even with minor changes, is worse.
Also one could argue that capitalism was part of the reason they don't "own" the land in the first place. We colonised an island that was already populated and took their land. Seems a bit cheeky to now turn round and say "look, we gave them a job! Aren't we great!?" |
This. It's a nonsense argument really. I like the idea too that if you think capitalism isn't great then you should also be against the Internet. That's one of the more amusing leaps of logic I've seen on here. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 09:13 - Sep 17 with 2533 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 07:31 - Sep 17 by Vic |
Not sure that anyone, even my family knows which way I voted! I doubt it was the way you think it was though, |
Obviously they're not on TWTD
Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... by Vic 3 Dec 2019 19:26I'm at work so can't watch.
But you asked why I would still vote Tory. Even if I watch the source material i do believe that my answer will still be that I dont trust labour with the countries finances.
I'll watch it later if I can.
And someone said why mention Venezuela? Just because JC used to praise the government up!
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 09:55 - Sep 17 with 2508 views | Darth_Koont |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 23:00 - Sep 16 by IPS_wich |
I haven’t read through all of the comments, but my two cents worth.
I think you have to distinguish between the cause, the movement and the association.
If you disagree with the cause - that is the systematic discrimination of people based upon the skin is abhorrent - then yes that almost certainly makes you a racist.
If you disagree with the movement - that is a collective and global objection to highlight and address the cause then that either makes you a racist, a deliberate or obtuse contrarian or just someone really really ignorant - but probably most likely a racist.
If you disagree with the actions or words of those associated with the movement, then you have to be really clear what it is you disagree with and whether that in the big picture it really matters.
The BLM movement has its roots in left wing politics - and that is where I see the problem for some. Two of the extreme left philosophies are anti-capitalism and anarchism, and they attract a certain type that many people in western ‘capitalist’ societies instinctively disagree with. It’s no different the Extinction Rebellion movement, you can believe in the cause, support the movement but then object to some of those that choose to associate with the movement.
25 years ago when I was a student I participated in a few Anti Nazi League protests, but stopped going because they were always organised by the local branch of Socialist Worker who would get really sh1tty with you if you didn’t agree with their anti-capitalist view of the world. Didn’t stop me wearing the ANL badge on my coat and donating to them.
Anyway, the short of it, if you’ve read this and still disagree with the cause and the movement - then maybe have a long hard look in the mirror. But, if you instinctively and passionately believe in the cause and the movement; but are frustrated/disappointed that it has attracted associations that you don’t agree with - then that’s ok - just be very clear about what it is you mean. |
Great post.
It’s important to remember that social change and advancement has come predominantly from the left. It’s about balancing our more animalistic urges of which capitalism is one of the most useful and still an important driver in society.
People like Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Mandela were socialist (at least implicitly) and were certainly demonised as extreme socialists as a result. However their political beliefs didn’t detract from their desire to make the world a better, fairer place, they informed it.
People who struggle with BLM around anti-capitalism really just struggle with the bigger debate about society and people’s wellbeing. |  |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:34 - Sep 17 with 2452 views | Ryorry |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 09:55 - Sep 17 by Darth_Koont |
Great post.
It’s important to remember that social change and advancement has come predominantly from the left. It’s about balancing our more animalistic urges of which capitalism is one of the most useful and still an important driver in society.
People like Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Mandela were socialist (at least implicitly) and were certainly demonised as extreme socialists as a result. However their political beliefs didn’t detract from their desire to make the world a better, fairer place, they informed it.
People who struggle with BLM around anti-capitalism really just struggle with the bigger debate about society and people’s wellbeing. |
There's also obviously a group who whilst they support BLM and social change/advancement, and are also left of centre to some degree, think it's better if those changes can be achieved without violence on the streets. This may mean incrementally rather than in one massive fell swoop.
And whilst Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Mandela are true heroes to probably most people on this forum, India, the USA and SA are clearly still capitalist countries with plenty of problems - Rome wasn't built in a day! | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:42 - Sep 17 with 2450 views | DanTheMan |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:34 - Sep 17 by Ryorry |
There's also obviously a group who whilst they support BLM and social change/advancement, and are also left of centre to some degree, think it's better if those changes can be achieved without violence on the streets. This may mean incrementally rather than in one massive fell swoop.
And whilst Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Mandela are true heroes to probably most people on this forum, India, the USA and SA are clearly still capitalist countries with plenty of problems - Rome wasn't built in a day! |
Just a note on Martin Luther King
He was accused of the exact same kind of thing. | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:55 - Sep 17 with 2423 views | Ryorry |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:42 - Sep 17 by DanTheMan |
Just a note on Martin Luther King
He was accused of the exact same kind of thing. |
I know,I know! | |
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| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:59 - Sep 17 with 2415 views | Darth_Koont |
| Is it possible to disagree with the BLM movement on 11:34 - Sep 17 by Ryorry |
There's also obviously a group who whilst they support BLM and social change/advancement, and are also left of centre to some degree, think it's better if those changes can be achieved without violence on the streets. This may mean incrementally rather than in one massive fell swoop.
And whilst Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Mandela are true heroes to probably most people on this forum, India, the USA and SA are clearly still capitalist countries with plenty of problems - Rome wasn't built in a day! |
True but socialism hasn’t been about abandoning capitalism for the past 50 years or more. And western socialism has never really been about that.
It’s about reforming and balancing capitalism. So it’s no surprise that in the period where socialism and indeed social democracy have been demonised that we’ve seen a particularly toxic brand of neoliberal capitalism come to the fore.
I don’t condone violence but I do think the anger is entirely justifiable and the disease and its cure are the responsibility of the moderates who have ignored or downplayed that anger. | |
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