| Lewis Hamilton 15:43 - Oct 11 with 10062 views | judespiveyg |
Now won as many races as Michael Schumacher, and will equal his 7 titles won by the end of the season. Britain's greatest ever sportsman? |  |
| I survived Ipswich 0-0 Burton |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 12:52 - Oct 12 with 2073 views | Ely_Blue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 16:47 - Oct 11 by StokieBlue |
I'm not sure you can take such a simple measure as the constructors championship when looking at 2019.
Ferrari totally shot themselves in the foot multiple times due to strategy, declaring Vettel the number 1 driver and the drivers having incidents on the track. They had a good car but a poor team around it.
LeClerc had the most pole positions in 2019. The Ferrari was massively faster on the straights because they were cheating and that is why it's so rubbish this year.
You're still probably right that the Mercedes was better (it was certainly a better outfit if you include the team) but I don't think it's as clear as you suggest. I actually think Hamilton would probably have won in 2019 in the Ferrari but of course that is something we can never know and is total speculation.
SB |
I actually said to my wife yesterday that I think Hamilton could win the title in the same Red Bull that Verstappen is driving in this year, much in the same way that MS was good in that Benetton before |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 12:56 - Oct 12 with 2072 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Lewis Hamilton on 11:34 - Oct 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Actually just had a quick think on this and think in Schumacher’s case it’s relevant to factor in his ill-advised return from retirement. Prior to this he’d been in 11 less races than Hamilton for his 91 wins
Arguably he also spend the first 30-odd races of his career in a worse car comparatively than anything Hamilton has ever driven
Whether his record is marginally better than Schumacher’s or not is irrelevant though really, it speaks for itself by pretty much any measure |
Schumacher's record is tainted in my eyes because of his habit of crashing into people who could win the Championship if they won the last race. Not a good look when you're lining up on the "All-time Greatest Sportsman" grid, even if it did mean your sponsors got some nice photos of you wearing their watch whilst spraying champagne to hang in their corporate HQ foyer. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 13:23 - Oct 12 with 2058 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 09:07 - Oct 12 by bluefunk |
He switched to Mercedes well before they had a dominant car and plays a major role in developing that car, so it’s not luck that he is in a dominant car. Are you also going to criticise Schumacher for being in a dominant Ferrari?,
The best teams recruit the best drivers, that’s a part of the sport. Hamilton also deserves credit for the style of his victories, no deliberately taking out competitions or other Schumacher style tactics. Whether he is GOAT is impossible to tell but he has certainly supplanted Schumacher in the modern era |
Pointing out facts is criticising him? Schumacher also had the best car, certainly at Ferrari though possibly not when he won the title with Benneton. |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 14:03 - Oct 12 with 2042 views | eireblue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 12:51 - Oct 12 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Murray is unquestionably, firmly fourth in that list. "Greatest" has other resonances, though. Murray had to contend with the huge build up of expectation after so many years without a British Mens Grand Slam winner, exacerbated, if anything, by how close Tiger Tim came.
And he's had to play within the restrictions of serious ongoing injury issues.
And, in a polar opposite of the F1 situation, he wasn't playing for the best team with the best set up, growing up in Scotland.
He's not our greatest sportsman, but he is a truly great sportsman.
It's Redgrave, for me. Too many questions about Nike Oregon and Salazar for Farah. Hoy is trumped by Redgrave because the funding, support and technical know-how given to UK cycling puts him, like Hamilton in F1, in the "competitive advantage" category.
For example, when the cycling authorities tried to stop Team GBs advantage at the Olympics they stipulated that all bikes and components must be commercially available to all other competitors.
So Team GBs production facility created an online shop so that other teams could order the parts and components. And flooded it with lots of slightly different variations for each part, with no indication as to which was best or the one that Hoy and Co would use. They could either buy everything and test every combination, replicating Team GBs Research and Development process and funding Team GB into the bargain, or just not buy and use our parts. Clever. Legal. Competitive Advantage.
Oh, and Redgrave had to overcome serious illness, which is another kind of greatness. |
Chris Froome should probably get a mention in terms of greatest British sports person.
Mind you, he is another cyclist, that falls off more than I do.
Hmmm, I could have been a contender me, if you ignore the speed thing, maybe I should make more of a fuss about this on Internet forums. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 14:06 - Oct 12 with 2040 views | solomon |
| Lewis Hamilton on 12:52 - Oct 12 by Ely_Blue |
I actually said to my wife yesterday that I think Hamilton could win the title in the same Red Bull that Verstappen is driving in this year, much in the same way that MS was good in that Benetton before |
Nice thought but I think that’s not what would happen. The Benetton of 94 and the red bull if 2019 are wildly different circumstances. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 13:57 - Oct 16 with 1981 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 08:48 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
I think if you're a very good driver and you have the best car for nearly a decade then racking up 6 or 7 world titles isn't a huge surprise. Mercedes have been utterly dominant. The only year Hamilton hasn't won the title it was won by his teammate who was a good driver but not anywhere near the discussion for being the best of his generation or an all time great. I don't have any issue with Hamilton being regarded as the best of his generation, he's been incredibly consistent in recent years, but I do find it odd when people try to downplay the impact of being in such a dominant car. |
I take issue with the first sentence. I think you have to be a great driver. Rosberg is a very good driver, and he didn't do that because Hamilton was in the other seat. I think if he was alongside Vettel, then it would have been them sharing seasons.
Vettel also had the best car for more than half the season and capitulated under the pressure Hamilton applied, even when the Mercedes was slower.
On Rosberg's win, Hamilton suffered more reliability issues throughout the season, and this was the primary reason for his loss. Rosberg knew this and that coupled with his personal sacrifices, is the reason he quit when he won.
Bottas is a good driver, being made to look bad. He wouldn't have beaten Vettel, when Vettel had the better car.
I think that people exaggerate the dominance of the Mercedes. Take this season, remove Hamilton from the equation and you have Bottas on 172 and Verstappen on 154. That is with Verstappen having three DNFs and Bottas having one. If Verstappen had finished 2nd rather than having a reliability issue, then he'd be on 172 too.
Point is, a good driver doesn't guarantee the championship, and very few drivers would have turned around that season that Ferrari were dominating as they wouldn't have got enough points when the Mercedes was doing relatively poorly.
But let's assume the Mercedes is unbeatable. Hamilton has driven some pretty wonky cars when you think about them as championship contenders. That first year he was in the Mercedes, it was a shocker. But he still got on the podium 5 (EDIT, 7 was the year before in the wonky McLaren) times, dragging it to a 4th place finish and winning 1 race.
Hamilton has actually won a race in every year he has competed. And Alonso, when taking aim at Vettel, said Hamilton is a true champion, because he has put cars in positions that he has no right to be in, whereas Vettel has only every put a car where it was meant to be.
But we agree on best of a generation. I just wish people (usually Ferrari fan boys) wouldn't knock Hamilton with one hand and build up Schumacher with the other. They were both the greatest of their era. They both were lucky with dominant cars. But they both earnt that right to be in it and earnt the right over their team's other driver. Hamilton more so.
Now if someone was to say Senna was the best for the Monaco race that he crashed on or the "greatest wet lap ever" then I wouldn't argue, you're entitled to that opinion.
If you were to say Lauda was the best because the way he revolutionised what it was to be a driver and came back from being on fire and given his rights, to win another GP (and nearly that years title). Then okay.
If you were to say Schumacher that transformed the Ferrari team and the way he drove into Hill in 1994 to win the title was amazing (I joke), then fine, I won't argue.
But I also wouldn't argue if you said Hamilton was the best, just look at that 2006 British GP win in the wet or look how he could match a 2-time world champion in his first year in the same car.
You don't win 7 championships by being very good driver in a great car, you have to be consistently great. [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 14:11]
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| Lewis Hamilton on 14:01 - Oct 16 with 1976 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 12:52 - Oct 12 by Ely_Blue |
I actually said to my wife yesterday that I think Hamilton could win the title in the same Red Bull that Verstappen is driving in this year, much in the same way that MS was good in that Benetton before |
Completely agree. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 14:04 - Oct 16 with 1970 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 14:03 - Oct 12 by eireblue |
Chris Froome should probably get a mention in terms of greatest British sports person.
Mind you, he is another cyclist, that falls off more than I do.
Hmmm, I could have been a contender me, if you ignore the speed thing, maybe I should make more of a fuss about this on Internet forums. |
I would have put him, but the scandal around drugs (which he was cleared of and I know nothing of the details) put me off recommending him. Certainly he has achieved a lot though. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 14:21 - Oct 16 with 1952 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 13:57 - Oct 16 by Kropotkin123 |
I take issue with the first sentence. I think you have to be a great driver. Rosberg is a very good driver, and he didn't do that because Hamilton was in the other seat. I think if he was alongside Vettel, then it would have been them sharing seasons.
Vettel also had the best car for more than half the season and capitulated under the pressure Hamilton applied, even when the Mercedes was slower.
On Rosberg's win, Hamilton suffered more reliability issues throughout the season, and this was the primary reason for his loss. Rosberg knew this and that coupled with his personal sacrifices, is the reason he quit when he won.
Bottas is a good driver, being made to look bad. He wouldn't have beaten Vettel, when Vettel had the better car.
I think that people exaggerate the dominance of the Mercedes. Take this season, remove Hamilton from the equation and you have Bottas on 172 and Verstappen on 154. That is with Verstappen having three DNFs and Bottas having one. If Verstappen had finished 2nd rather than having a reliability issue, then he'd be on 172 too.
Point is, a good driver doesn't guarantee the championship, and very few drivers would have turned around that season that Ferrari were dominating as they wouldn't have got enough points when the Mercedes was doing relatively poorly.
But let's assume the Mercedes is unbeatable. Hamilton has driven some pretty wonky cars when you think about them as championship contenders. That first year he was in the Mercedes, it was a shocker. But he still got on the podium 5 (EDIT, 7 was the year before in the wonky McLaren) times, dragging it to a 4th place finish and winning 1 race.
Hamilton has actually won a race in every year he has competed. And Alonso, when taking aim at Vettel, said Hamilton is a true champion, because he has put cars in positions that he has no right to be in, whereas Vettel has only every put a car where it was meant to be.
But we agree on best of a generation. I just wish people (usually Ferrari fan boys) wouldn't knock Hamilton with one hand and build up Schumacher with the other. They were both the greatest of their era. They both were lucky with dominant cars. But they both earnt that right to be in it and earnt the right over their team's other driver. Hamilton more so.
Now if someone was to say Senna was the best for the Monaco race that he crashed on or the "greatest wet lap ever" then I wouldn't argue, you're entitled to that opinion.
If you were to say Lauda was the best because the way he revolutionised what it was to be a driver and came back from being on fire and given his rights, to win another GP (and nearly that years title). Then okay.
If you were to say Schumacher that transformed the Ferrari team and the way he drove into Hill in 1994 to win the title was amazing (I joke), then fine, I won't argue.
But I also wouldn't argue if you said Hamilton was the best, just look at that 2006 British GP win in the wet or look how he could match a 2-time world champion in his first year in the same car.
You don't win 7 championships by being very good driver in a great car, you have to be consistently great. [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 14:11]
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Yeah that's fair. I think making a case for anyone being the best ever is difficult given the variables at play in comparing across generations and taking the impact of the quality of the car (and team) into account.
I think what you and Alonso say about Vettel is a little unfair though. No doubt the past few years he's struggled but he's got a lot of talent. You mention Hamilton winning a race in the pre-hybrid Mercedes when it was an upper midfield car and that is fair. Let's not forget though that Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso as a young driver. That's doing a bit more than putting the car where it should be. He also won races early on at Ferrari in a car that was a lot slower than the Mercedes at that time. No doubt Hamilton has gone on to eclipse him in recent years and has proved to be much more consistent and a more complete driver, but I think people have forgotten how talented Vettel is/was. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 14:41 - Oct 16 with 1943 views | RobTheMonk |
I always think that Ben Ainslie doesn't get the recognition he deserves. 4 Olympic gold medals means you're pretty damn good at what you do! |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 17:09 - Oct 16 with 1913 views | Radlett_blue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 13:57 - Oct 16 by Kropotkin123 |
I take issue with the first sentence. I think you have to be a great driver. Rosberg is a very good driver, and he didn't do that because Hamilton was in the other seat. I think if he was alongside Vettel, then it would have been them sharing seasons.
Vettel also had the best car for more than half the season and capitulated under the pressure Hamilton applied, even when the Mercedes was slower.
On Rosberg's win, Hamilton suffered more reliability issues throughout the season, and this was the primary reason for his loss. Rosberg knew this and that coupled with his personal sacrifices, is the reason he quit when he won.
Bottas is a good driver, being made to look bad. He wouldn't have beaten Vettel, when Vettel had the better car.
I think that people exaggerate the dominance of the Mercedes. Take this season, remove Hamilton from the equation and you have Bottas on 172 and Verstappen on 154. That is with Verstappen having three DNFs and Bottas having one. If Verstappen had finished 2nd rather than having a reliability issue, then he'd be on 172 too.
Point is, a good driver doesn't guarantee the championship, and very few drivers would have turned around that season that Ferrari were dominating as they wouldn't have got enough points when the Mercedes was doing relatively poorly.
But let's assume the Mercedes is unbeatable. Hamilton has driven some pretty wonky cars when you think about them as championship contenders. That first year he was in the Mercedes, it was a shocker. But he still got on the podium 5 (EDIT, 7 was the year before in the wonky McLaren) times, dragging it to a 4th place finish and winning 1 race.
Hamilton has actually won a race in every year he has competed. And Alonso, when taking aim at Vettel, said Hamilton is a true champion, because he has put cars in positions that he has no right to be in, whereas Vettel has only every put a car where it was meant to be.
But we agree on best of a generation. I just wish people (usually Ferrari fan boys) wouldn't knock Hamilton with one hand and build up Schumacher with the other. They were both the greatest of their era. They both were lucky with dominant cars. But they both earnt that right to be in it and earnt the right over their team's other driver. Hamilton more so.
Now if someone was to say Senna was the best for the Monaco race that he crashed on or the "greatest wet lap ever" then I wouldn't argue, you're entitled to that opinion.
If you were to say Lauda was the best because the way he revolutionised what it was to be a driver and came back from being on fire and given his rights, to win another GP (and nearly that years title). Then okay.
If you were to say Schumacher that transformed the Ferrari team and the way he drove into Hill in 1994 to win the title was amazing (I joke), then fine, I won't argue.
But I also wouldn't argue if you said Hamilton was the best, just look at that 2006 British GP win in the wet or look how he could match a 2-time world champion in his first year in the same car.
You don't win 7 championships by being very good driver in a great car, you have to be consistently great. [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 14:11]
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Comparing the achievements of those who participate in different sports is near impossible.
Measuring the relative greatness of F1 drivers from different generations is very difficult, but the number of world titles has to be a big factor. So that leaves Hamilton, Schumacher & Fangio at the top. Hard to argue with that. Fangio won only 5 titles but F1 only started when he was nearly 40 so he had fewer active years.
I don't know why some people want to keep putting Hamilton down; while F1 cars are now hugely technical, being that fraction of a second quicker than pretty much everyone else is a massive achievement. |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 17:26 - Oct 16 with 1899 views | 26_Paz |
He seems to get a lot of stick and I’m not really sure why. Great achievements in F1. I wouldn’t say greatest sportsman but certainly undervalued by most of the public. |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 18:07 - Oct 16 with 1886 views | IpswichBoyBlue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 20:27 - Oct 11 by Mercian |
When you compare him to recently knighted sportspeople such as Jessica Ennis-Hill, Mo Farrah and Andy Murray he is in my mind without doubt the most talented. Sir Andy for example ranks number 4 in his generation of tennis players where Lewis ranks in the top 5 of all time F1 drivers. Sir Mo is a superb long distance and even middle distance runner but still not in the class of Hamilton IMO. The thing is the other three did not tax dodge. This a a negative mark for Lewis which does not resonate well with the public. |
Lewis is an exceptional athlete, without doubt. SSR won 5 gold medals over 20 years as well as countless world and European titles. I struggle to find a greater sportsman than him. The dedication to the sport and the time away from family was enormous, yet he did it long term. Sir Steve Redgrave is the greatest sportsman of all time for me. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 22:58 - Oct 16 with 1828 views | Mercian |
| Lewis Hamilton on 18:07 - Oct 16 by IpswichBoyBlue |
Lewis is an exceptional athlete, without doubt. SSR won 5 gold medals over 20 years as well as countless world and European titles. I struggle to find a greater sportsman than him. The dedication to the sport and the time away from family was enormous, yet he did it long term. Sir Steve Redgrave is the greatest sportsman of all time for me. |
If I remember correctly Jessica Ennis-Hill refused to apologise to or soften her stance on Ched Evans even after he was cleared beyond reasonable doubt. For those not in the know a stand and Bramall Lane was named after her which she threatened to withdraw if Evans ever played for Sheffield United again. Very classy Jess. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 23:23 - Oct 16 with 1814 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 22:58 - Oct 16 by Mercian |
If I remember correctly Jessica Ennis-Hill refused to apologise to or soften her stance on Ched Evans even after he was cleared beyond reasonable doubt. For those not in the know a stand and Bramall Lane was named after her which she threatened to withdraw if Evans ever played for Sheffield United again. Very classy Jess. |
He wasn't cleared beyond reasonable doubt, there is no such thing. He was not convicted following appeal because the jury felt there was reasonable doubt about his guilt. At best he's still a scumbag and Jess is well within her rights to speak out against him. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 23:26 - Oct 16 with 1813 views | Mercian |
| Lewis Hamilton on 23:23 - Oct 16 by Herbivore |
He wasn't cleared beyond reasonable doubt, there is no such thing. He was not convicted following appeal because the jury felt there was reasonable doubt about his guilt. At best he's still a scumbag and Jess is well within her rights to speak out against him. |
Being a scumbag does not warrant having the prime years of his career taken from him and being a scumbag does not mean his is a rapist. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 23:33 - Oct 16 with 1811 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 23:26 - Oct 16 by Mercian |
Being a scumbag does not warrant having the prime years of his career taken from him and being a scumbag does not mean his is a rapist. |
I've read up enough about the case to have zero sympathy for him and every sympathy for Jess Ennis-Hill's position on it. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 07:07 - Oct 17 with 1762 views | IpswichBoyBlue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 22:58 - Oct 16 by Mercian |
If I remember correctly Jessica Ennis-Hill refused to apologise to or soften her stance on Ched Evans even after he was cleared beyond reasonable doubt. For those not in the know a stand and Bramall Lane was named after her which she threatened to withdraw if Evans ever played for Sheffield United again. Very classy Jess. |
Wow. We are discussing our greatest ever sportsman and you bring Ched Evans into it. Jessica Ennis-Hill has a lot more class than you. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 07:22 - Oct 17 with 1757 views | jeera |
| Lewis Hamilton on 07:07 - Oct 17 by IpswichBoyBlue |
Wow. We are discussing our greatest ever sportsman and you bring Ched Evans into it. Jessica Ennis-Hill has a lot more class than you. |
Well she certainly has a lot more class than Evans, not that that in itself is difficult.
But yes, at least she has principles to go with her talent. |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 07:25 - Oct 17 with 1754 views | solomon |
| Lewis Hamilton on 14:01 - Oct 16 by Kropotkin123 |
Completely agree. |
I think you are underestimating Verstappen, something that Hamilton does not do. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 07:26 - Oct 17 with 1754 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 07:07 - Oct 17 by IpswichBoyBlue |
Wow. We are discussing our greatest ever sportsman and you bring Ched Evans into it. Jessica Ennis-Hill has a lot more class than you. |
It was a bit of a curveball. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 10:03 - Oct 17 with 1713 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 07:25 - Oct 17 by solomon |
I think you are underestimating Verstappen, something that Hamilton does not do. |
I was under the impression I was talking about Hamilton vrs Bottas
What I thought I was saying was that Hamilton could beat Bottas this year if he was in the Red Bull. Not that I believe Hamilton would beat Verstappen if Hamilton was in the Red Bull and Verstappen was in the Mercedes.
As with my maths earlier regarding taking Hamilton out of the equation and taking into account the DNFs, I had Bottas and Verstappen on the same points (172 I think). So even if I believe Hamilton is a factor of one point better than Verstappen over the same distance, this puts him ahead of Bottas.
EDIT: As for Verstappen, if he was in the Mercedes alongside Lewis, I think it would be a lot closer. I think Lewis would win more championships across a given period of time, but I don't think it would be a shutout. [Post edited 17 Oct 2020 10:09]
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