| Lewis Hamilton 15:43 - Oct 11 with 8243 views | judespiveyg |
Now won as many races as Michael Schumacher, and will equal his 7 titles won by the end of the season. Britain's greatest ever sportsman? |  |
| I survived Ipswich 0-0 Burton |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 21:25 - Oct 11 with 1953 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:21 - Oct 11 by J2BLUE |
In any other era Murray would have been #1. |
He was number 1 in his era, for a few weeks at least. |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 21:25 - Oct 11 with 1953 views | StokieBlue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:21 - Oct 11 by jeera |
A couple of times when I've been unable to sleep I've found myself looking up a few old classic matches online. There's a number of famous matches that are on youtube with a narration of the moves etc.
More interesting than it sounds!
I just struggle to concentrate enough to give anyone a decent game myself atm. |
Seems you can't link to user accounts in YouTube.
Search for AGADMATOR in YouTube and you'll find it.
Explanations of both classic and recent matches. It's very good and as you say, more interesting than it may sound :).
SB [Post edited 11 Oct 2020 21:29]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 21:49 - Oct 11 with 1927 views | jeera |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:25 - Oct 11 by StokieBlue |
Seems you can't link to user accounts in YouTube.
Search for AGADMATOR in YouTube and you'll find it.
Explanations of both classic and recent matches. It's very good and as you say, more interesting than it may sound :).
SB [Post edited 11 Oct 2020 21:29]
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I was about to say the link didn't work!
But have found him from that on youtube, ta muchly.
I should show an interest again really. I used to enjoy a game here and there. If I'm honest in my 20s it became synonymous with having a smoke so when that got phased out... |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 21:49 - Oct 11 with 1921 views | Funge |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:21 - Oct 11 by J2BLUE |
In any other era Murray would have been #1. |
Heh, interesting!
I think Sampras takes Murray, at his peak.
Federer beats everyone, and so does Djokovic. Nadal beats everyone (including Zeus) on clay - but Murray/ Sampras - that would be a hell of a match.
I'm otherwise in agreement, but Sampras was a berserk athlete. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:49 - Oct 11 with 1921 views | stonojnr |
| Lewis Hamilton on 20:58 - Oct 11 by Mercian |
F1 drivers are among the fittest of all sports people. A lot fitter than many would imagine. They also have to be light as they can be, sometimes to the determent to their physical and mental health. Jenson Button is a very good amateur tri-athelete but he originally took up the sport to keep his weight down as he was quite large for an F1 driver. Reading interviews with Jenson it is clear that had a negative effect on his health. Apparently he loves it now he has retired but it was too much when he was still competing. |
the weight side for drivers is better now than it was in Buttons final years, as the drivers weight now has to be a minimum of 80kg with seat, so if a driver is under that weight the teams have to add extra ballast.
whereas in Buttons last few years the drivers weight was being included in the cars minimum weight limit, so teams would try and develop a really light car and use ballast to bump up the weight to the limit and move the weight around to solve handling problems on different circuits, but the heavier the driver, the less ballast the teams could use.
so the teams told drivers to lose weight, and some of them were pushing the limits on what was actually healthy for them, it was certainly suggested drivers had passed out behind the wheel or were close to passing out just from malnutrition trying to hit this weight target
Rosberg said he literally ate as little as he could in his championship year as if he could lose a bit of weight it translated into a gain maybe even just of a tenth in lap time, that could be the difference between getting pole from Hamilton, that meant he had the strategy call and the advantage in the race.
as for where Hamiltons achievement ranks in all time, no I dont think he is the GOAT, though you dont win 91 GPs by luck alone,certainly in the top 10 drivers for sure, but competition has been sorely lacking the past decade.
as you might look back and say Prost only won 51, Senna 41 so they werent as good ? but you look back at the competition those drivers were up against, multiple world champions, intra team rivalries, whereas now if a Mercedes doesnt win the race, its actually a surprise, doesnt mean its easy, they still have to do the job properly to win, but its a bit like Celtic winning the Scottish premier league each season.
and its not like the Marquez situation in MotoGP, Marquez can clearly do things on his Honda bike no other MotoGP rider can do on the same bike, take him out through injury and its a complete lottery who wins MotoGP. If Hamilton was sidelined through injury, well Bottas would be winning instead, assuming he cut the mistakes out, which probably would be the case as he's overdriving trying to compete with Hamilton. But its not like F1 would suddenly become an Albon followed by Norris or Ricciardo, race win situation, put Hulkenberg in as the reserve driver in a Merc and he'd win the championship, thats the car advantage which makes it difficult to judge purely on winningest stats who is the best ever |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:59 - Oct 11 with 1904 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:49 - Oct 11 by Funge |
Heh, interesting!
I think Sampras takes Murray, at his peak.
Federer beats everyone, and so does Djokovic. Nadal beats everyone (including Zeus) on clay - but Murray/ Sampras - that would be a hell of a match.
I'm otherwise in agreement, but Sampras was a berserk athlete. |
Sampras beats Murray on grass, Murray beats Sampras on clay. On hard courts they'd have some classic matches, with Murray probably coming out on top more often in Australia and Sampras having the edge at the US Open. That's my take anyway. Think Sampras was probably more consistent in being able to maintain his best level. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 22:18 - Oct 11 with 1890 views | Funge |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:59 - Oct 11 by Herbivore |
Sampras beats Murray on grass, Murray beats Sampras on clay. On hard courts they'd have some classic matches, with Murray probably coming out on top more often in Australia and Sampras having the edge at the US Open. That's my take anyway. Think Sampras was probably more consistent in being able to maintain his best level. |
Difficult to argue against any of what you've posted there - some very fine margins at play across all 4 surfaces between the 2.
Which I suppose probably validates J2s point - take Djok, Fed and Nadal out of the equation, and it's between Murray and Sampras for GOAT. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 22:33 - Oct 11 with 1876 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Lewis Hamilton on 21:49 - Oct 11 by stonojnr |
the weight side for drivers is better now than it was in Buttons final years, as the drivers weight now has to be a minimum of 80kg with seat, so if a driver is under that weight the teams have to add extra ballast.
whereas in Buttons last few years the drivers weight was being included in the cars minimum weight limit, so teams would try and develop a really light car and use ballast to bump up the weight to the limit and move the weight around to solve handling problems on different circuits, but the heavier the driver, the less ballast the teams could use.
so the teams told drivers to lose weight, and some of them were pushing the limits on what was actually healthy for them, it was certainly suggested drivers had passed out behind the wheel or were close to passing out just from malnutrition trying to hit this weight target
Rosberg said he literally ate as little as he could in his championship year as if he could lose a bit of weight it translated into a gain maybe even just of a tenth in lap time, that could be the difference between getting pole from Hamilton, that meant he had the strategy call and the advantage in the race.
as for where Hamiltons achievement ranks in all time, no I dont think he is the GOAT, though you dont win 91 GPs by luck alone,certainly in the top 10 drivers for sure, but competition has been sorely lacking the past decade.
as you might look back and say Prost only won 51, Senna 41 so they werent as good ? but you look back at the competition those drivers were up against, multiple world champions, intra team rivalries, whereas now if a Mercedes doesnt win the race, its actually a surprise, doesnt mean its easy, they still have to do the job properly to win, but its a bit like Celtic winning the Scottish premier league each season.
and its not like the Marquez situation in MotoGP, Marquez can clearly do things on his Honda bike no other MotoGP rider can do on the same bike, take him out through injury and its a complete lottery who wins MotoGP. If Hamilton was sidelined through injury, well Bottas would be winning instead, assuming he cut the mistakes out, which probably would be the case as he's overdriving trying to compete with Hamilton. But its not like F1 would suddenly become an Albon followed by Norris or Ricciardo, race win situation, put Hulkenberg in as the reserve driver in a Merc and he'd win the championship, thats the car advantage which makes it difficult to judge purely on winningest stats who is the best ever |
Surely the biggest difference now is the length of the schedule, which means that piling up poles and wins is ‘easier’ by virtue of having more opportunities. Easier of course being a relative term as Hamilton still has to beat the rest of the grid
That said I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamilton was still up there in % terms, and 7 world titles is ridiculous, assuming the inevitable happens |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 23:16 - Oct 11 with 1855 views | eireblue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 22:18 - Oct 11 by Funge |
Difficult to argue against any of what you've posted there - some very fine margins at play across all 4 surfaces between the 2.
Which I suppose probably validates J2s point - take Djok, Fed and Nadal out of the equation, and it's between Murray and Sampras for GOAT. |
Hmmm, strange way to spell Borg. [Post edited 11 Oct 2020 23:17]
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| Lewis Hamilton on 23:29 - Oct 11 with 1840 views | Blue12345 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 15:53 - Oct 11 by Westover |
No because he wouldn't be winning if he was driving a Williams he has the best car, I watch F1 but it's not a level playing field. |
I’m not a Hamilton fan by any means. But he is the best F1 driver. He won his first world title in a McLaren which was by no means the best car or team. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 23:54 - Oct 11 with 1836 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 16:46 - Oct 11 by Herbivore |
It's interesting though that Jenson Button doesn't rate him as the greatest ever having been his teammate and for 3 years (and accruing more points than him over that 2 year period). I think picking the greatest F1 driver is hard as comparisons across eras are difficult and the car plays such a huge part in it. No doubt Lewis is a great though. |
Jenson Button's point was that you can't compare people over different generations, as it was a different sport. So Jackie Stewart can't be compare to Lewis Hamilton, which I think is fair to hold that view.
Jenson out scored Lewis at the peak of Jenson's career. Lewis was about the same age as Verstappen is now, who most would argue is good, but likely to be a shadow of the driver he has the potential to be in a few more years.
Hamilton was one race away from winning F1 in his first year as a rookie, matching the two time reigning world champion, who had the same car.
My view is that Hamilton is the best of his generation. Alonso says as much too. He also adds that both him and Schumacher have been in the right place at the right time, but that shouldn't detract from their talent and that having the best car isn't enough to achieve what Lewis and Schumacher have achieved.
More generally for the thread as a whole. Does Ronaldo win as many Champions League trophies of he plays his entire career at Ipswich and not Real Madrid? Obviously not, that is why he moved the Real Madrid from Man Utd and not to Ipswich. Same with cars. If Lewis didn't drive for Mercedes, we'd have an exciting championship between Bottas and Verstappen, where people would bet on Verstappen.
The other one that gets thrown around is that they aren't proper sportsman. You have to be physically fit you have to be to control the car's g force with the accuracy that they do. Jenson Button took up triathlons to aid his F1 fitness.
And in answer to the original question. I struggle to think of a greater or a more dominant sportsman. I see Calzaghe was said, which is a good shout. Redgrave is another. [Post edited 12 Oct 2020 0:07]
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| Lewis Hamilton on 00:14 - Oct 12 with 1824 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 22:33 - Oct 11 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Surely the biggest difference now is the length of the schedule, which means that piling up poles and wins is ‘easier’ by virtue of having more opportunities. Easier of course being a relative term as Hamilton still has to beat the rest of the grid
That said I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamilton was still up there in % terms, and 7 world titles is ridiculous, assuming the inevitable happens |
He has a better % than Schumacher in both wins and poles. He's in third on % wins. Most have traditionally said Fangio is the GOAT in F1 and he leads the % wins. 46% compares to Lewis' 35%. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 07:39 - Oct 12 with 1780 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Lewis Hamilton on 00:14 - Oct 12 by Kropotkin123 |
He has a better % than Schumacher in both wins and poles. He's in third on % wins. Most have traditionally said Fangio is the GOAT in F1 and he leads the % wins. 46% compares to Lewis' 35%. |
Saved me looking - ta! | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 08:48 - Oct 12 with 1762 views | Herbivore |
| Lewis Hamilton on 23:54 - Oct 11 by Kropotkin123 |
Jenson Button's point was that you can't compare people over different generations, as it was a different sport. So Jackie Stewart can't be compare to Lewis Hamilton, which I think is fair to hold that view.
Jenson out scored Lewis at the peak of Jenson's career. Lewis was about the same age as Verstappen is now, who most would argue is good, but likely to be a shadow of the driver he has the potential to be in a few more years.
Hamilton was one race away from winning F1 in his first year as a rookie, matching the two time reigning world champion, who had the same car.
My view is that Hamilton is the best of his generation. Alonso says as much too. He also adds that both him and Schumacher have been in the right place at the right time, but that shouldn't detract from their talent and that having the best car isn't enough to achieve what Lewis and Schumacher have achieved.
More generally for the thread as a whole. Does Ronaldo win as many Champions League trophies of he plays his entire career at Ipswich and not Real Madrid? Obviously not, that is why he moved the Real Madrid from Man Utd and not to Ipswich. Same with cars. If Lewis didn't drive for Mercedes, we'd have an exciting championship between Bottas and Verstappen, where people would bet on Verstappen.
The other one that gets thrown around is that they aren't proper sportsman. You have to be physically fit you have to be to control the car's g force with the accuracy that they do. Jenson Button took up triathlons to aid his F1 fitness.
And in answer to the original question. I struggle to think of a greater or a more dominant sportsman. I see Calzaghe was said, which is a good shout. Redgrave is another. [Post edited 12 Oct 2020 0:07]
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I think if you're a very good driver and you have the best car for nearly a decade then racking up 6 or 7 world titles isn't a huge surprise. Mercedes have been utterly dominant. The only year Hamilton hasn't won the title it was won by his teammate who was a good driver but not anywhere near the discussion for being the best of his generation or an all time great. I don't have any issue with Hamilton being regarded as the best of his generation, he's been incredibly consistent in recent years, but I do find it odd when people try to downplay the impact of being in such a dominant car. | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 09:07 - Oct 12 with 1754 views | bluefunk |
| Lewis Hamilton on 08:48 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
I think if you're a very good driver and you have the best car for nearly a decade then racking up 6 or 7 world titles isn't a huge surprise. Mercedes have been utterly dominant. The only year Hamilton hasn't won the title it was won by his teammate who was a good driver but not anywhere near the discussion for being the best of his generation or an all time great. I don't have any issue with Hamilton being regarded as the best of his generation, he's been incredibly consistent in recent years, but I do find it odd when people try to downplay the impact of being in such a dominant car. |
He switched to Mercedes well before they had a dominant car and plays a major role in developing that car, so it’s not luck that he is in a dominant car. Are you also going to criticise Schumacher for being in a dominant Ferrari?,
The best teams recruit the best drivers, that’s a part of the sport. Hamilton also deserves credit for the style of his victories, no deliberately taking out competitions or other Schumacher style tactics. Whether he is GOAT is impossible to tell but he has certainly supplanted Schumacher in the modern era |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 09:10 - Oct 12 with 1752 views | hype313 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 16:46 - Oct 11 by judespiveyg |
It's always hard to tell with him because he's been unlucky enough to be in an era with arguably the three best players ever. I have no doubt that in any other era he would have taken loads more titles but just the three slams and no Australian or French works against him. |
To be fair, given how dominant Nadal is on clay, it would be harsh to judge Murray on not winning at Roland Garros, especially after the way he destroyed Novak yesterday.
The Australian, yes, because that his his self proclaimed favorite surface. |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 10:19 - Oct 12 with 1724 views | BlueRaider |
No, all he proves each year is that he is a better driver than his team mate. His car is so much better than everyone elses | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 10:45 - Oct 12 with 1706 views | eireblue |
| Lewis Hamilton on 09:07 - Oct 12 by bluefunk |
He switched to Mercedes well before they had a dominant car and plays a major role in developing that car, so it’s not luck that he is in a dominant car. Are you also going to criticise Schumacher for being in a dominant Ferrari?,
The best teams recruit the best drivers, that’s a part of the sport. Hamilton also deserves credit for the style of his victories, no deliberately taking out competitions or other Schumacher style tactics. Whether he is GOAT is impossible to tell but he has certainly supplanted Schumacher in the modern era |
I think the key thing that should be considered is Hamilton’s first year.
His team mate was Alonso, who had just won two world championships.
Lots of commentators talk of Alonso being one of the best ever, and Hamilton, in his first year was his equal, if not slightly better. They had the same points but Hamilton had more polls.
He only lost that championship by one point. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 11:17 - Oct 12 with 1692 views | J4ck22 |
| Lewis Hamilton on 09:07 - Oct 12 by bluefunk |
He switched to Mercedes well before they had a dominant car and plays a major role in developing that car, so it’s not luck that he is in a dominant car. Are you also going to criticise Schumacher for being in a dominant Ferrari?,
The best teams recruit the best drivers, that’s a part of the sport. Hamilton also deserves credit for the style of his victories, no deliberately taking out competitions or other Schumacher style tactics. Whether he is GOAT is impossible to tell but he has certainly supplanted Schumacher in the modern era |
It only took one year after Hamilton joining for Mercedes to start dominating, mainly because they absolutely nailed the regulation changes in 2014. Also to be fair to Schumacher, he spent a few years helping to develop that Ferrari and even then they were fighting McLaren pretty much all the way for a few more years after that.
Not to discredit Hamilton though, because you can only beat what's in front of you. It's just a shame that not many people have been able to give Mercedes a proper challenge. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 11:27 - Oct 12 with 1684 views | solomon |
| Lewis Hamilton on 00:14 - Oct 12 by Kropotkin123 |
He has a better % than Schumacher in both wins and poles. He's in third on % wins. Most have traditionally said Fangio is the GOAT in F1 and he leads the % wins. 46% compares to Lewis' 35%. |
Most racing drivers agree Jim Clark was the best. |  | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 11:34 - Oct 12 with 1670 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Actually just had a quick think on this and think in Schumacher’s case it’s relevant to factor in his ill-advised return from retirement. Prior to this he’d been in 11 less races than Hamilton for his 91 wins
Arguably he also spend the first 30-odd races of his career in a worse car comparatively than anything Hamilton has ever driven
Whether his record is marginally better than Schumacher’s or not is irrelevant though really, it speaks for itself by pretty much any measure | |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 11:35 - Oct 12 with 1668 views | solomon |
| Lewis Hamilton on 10:19 - Oct 12 by BlueRaider |
No, all he proves each year is that he is a better driver than his team mate. His car is so much better than everyone elses |
What many fail to understand is the true reason for the success of Mercedes is Mario Illen, along with the late Paul Morgan the founders of Illmor made Mercedes what it is today, although Mercedes “officially” bought illmor or out in 2005 mario has stayed on as a special advisor through his separate business interests, many members of the Brixworth team are original Illmor employees and it’s this DNA that makes them (as they always have been) a true British engineering master piece. Dont be fooled into thinking AMG are the standalone architects of this engines dominance. | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 12:34 - Oct 12 with 1644 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Lewis Hamilton on 17:51 - Oct 11 by Mercian |
If Mo Salah played for West Brom he would not be a Premier League Champion. |
Yeah, and if Mahrez didn't play for Chelsea, and Maguire didn't play for Man Utd... | | | |
| Lewis Hamilton on 12:43 - Oct 12 with 1638 views | BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |  |
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| Lewis Hamilton on 12:51 - Oct 12 with 1627 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Lewis Hamilton on 20:37 - Oct 11 by Mercian |
Harsh but hard to argue against with Federer, Nadal and Djokovic on the scene. |
Murray is unquestionably, firmly fourth in that list. "Greatest" has other resonances, though. Murray had to contend with the huge build up of expectation after so many years without a British Mens Grand Slam winner, exacerbated, if anything, by how close Tiger Tim came.
And he's had to play within the restrictions of serious ongoing injury issues.
And, in a polar opposite of the F1 situation, he wasn't playing for the best team with the best set up, growing up in Scotland.
He's not our greatest sportsman, but he is a truly great sportsman.
It's Redgrave, for me. Too many questions about Nike Oregon and Salazar for Farah. Hoy is trumped by Redgrave because the funding, support and technical know-how given to UK cycling puts him, like Hamilton in F1, in the "competitive advantage" category.
For example, when the cycling authorities tried to stop Team GBs advantage at the Olympics they stipulated that all bikes and components must be commercially available to all other competitors.
So Team GBs production facility created an online shop so that other teams could order the parts and components. And flooded it with lots of slightly different variations for each part, with no indication as to which was best or the one that Hoy and Co would use. They could either buy everything and test every combination, replicating Team GBs Research and Development process and funding Team GB into the bargain, or just not buy and use our parts. Clever. Legal. Competitive Advantage.
Oh, and Redgrave had to overcome serious illness, which is another kind of greatness. | | | |
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