| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here 20:38 - Nov 15 with 12398 views | monytowbray |
GO ONNN. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:01 - Nov 16 with 1829 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 10:54 - Nov 16 by Guthrum |
Do they behave like cheese, e.g. will they melt on toast or into sauce? Interested in how far the technology has been able to go in filling its traditional food roles. |
They will melt, but I don't think cashew cheese can give you the kind of stringy texture you get from a cheddar. Texture wise the ones I've had are more like a firm pate or a less gooey brie. To be honest though I've never got on with melted cheese so I tend to eat it as a solid slice/chunk.
They have developed a number of new cheeses over the past year that are meant to more closely replicate things like mozzarella, parmesan, and feta. Given it's a comparatively new sector, vegan cheesemaking is progressing pretty rapidly so I wouldn't be surprised if they come up with a product that can more closely replicate melty cheddar. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:06 - Nov 16 with 1829 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 10:47 - Nov 16 by Guthrum |
My major concern if the entire world population were converted to a vegan diet is where we would grow all that plant matter. Also, where we would find the water to irrigate it.
A surprisingly small proportion of the planet's surface is good quality arable land. Often, that has to be pumped with fertilisers to get maximum production. Much of what is not already fully exploited is under the world's remaining great forests. The famine disaster in Ethiopia was, in part, caused by deforestation to grow cash crops, which resulted in the soil being washed away. Animals, on the other hand, can be grazed on considerably more marginal land, too steep or rocky to plough, or only capable of growing grass and scrub.
I mentioned the issue of water. With agriculture already having been pushed into less fertile areas, there arises the issue of irrigation to make that viable. Take the issue of the Aral Sea. It has gone from 26,000 square miles to a tenth of that, due entirely to the rivers which flow into it having been entirely diverted to agricultural use. One of the biggest issues fuelling the struggle in the West Bank is over the control of water sources. Even in a country as wet as the UK, prime agricultural areas such as East Anglia struggle to supply sufficient water while still giving the big cities what they need. Climate change is only likely to mess that up further.
To stand a hope of increasing production significantly, we would need new crops. Almost certainly making use of GM technology. Great care would have to be taken. Palm oil production is devastating ecologically sensitive areas of South East Asia. The Groundnut Scheme destroyed the rural economies of West Africa. As some pesticides are banned, crops like oilseed rape become less viable (production in East Anglia has dropped by over 70% in parts of eastern England, according to industry numbers.
None of what I have written negates points you have made about cruelty to animals or the overconsumption of food - particularly meat - in wealthier regions of the planet. But they are significant issues which do need to be addressed when pushing for a plant-based diet for the world's population. |
The amount of land given over to grow crops for animal feed is huge though. Meat production is highly inefficient in terms of both use of land and use of water. There are lots of studies out there about this, and I think I'm right in saying that if everyone switched to a plant based diet we would use less land and less water overall than we do currently. As it stands somewhere between 65% and 90% (depending on your source) of soya is grown to feed livestock and they require a huge amount of it to produce a relatively small amount of meat. If that was converted for human consumption we'd likely need less of it than we do currently to feed the livestock population - which is eye wateringly vast - and we wouldn't need grazing land either. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:11 - Nov 16 with 1819 views | clive_baker |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 10:51 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
I've been to a farm, it wasn't very nice. I think your point about city versus countryside is interesting but I'd argue it's more to do with the countryside being reliant on agriculture economically that tends to explain why you see far fewer vegans in rural areas.
Mass production of dairy and eggs means the killing of animals, there's no two ways about it. Whilst some farms might have good standards when it comes to animal welfare, many also don't. And you can't escape the fact that male calves and chicks have to be disposed of because of their inability to produce milk and eggs.
A few years back one of the chefs on Great British Menu cooked a baby male goat for his main course to highlight that so many male kids just go to waste as they are slaughtered in the production of goat milk but nobody really eats them. The goat milk and cheese industry is significantly smaller than cow dairy and egg production. Dead male animal babies are basically a by product of mass produced dairy and eggs. If you're vegetarian because you don't like the idea of killing animals for food then it's very hard to justify eating dairy or eggs.
I appreciate why that's a view you may not like given your personal connection to the dairy industry. |
I think it's also as much to do with the socio demographics, namely age. Urbanites are younger on average, and they typically have an overwhelmingly greater sense of environmental conscience. 80% of vegans are <35. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:19 - Nov 16 with 1803 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 09:32 - Nov 16 by factual_blue |
Dollers lives in Penge though. It's a Poundland version of Tooting. |
I don't live in Penge, I live in Anerley! |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:21 - Nov 16 with 1801 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 09:00 - Nov 16 by NewcyBlue |
You’ve never noticed?!
We get Free Range Organic Milk.
The products are there! |
Genuinely never noticed, but then I drink oat milk (and I don't really drink tea or coffee so don't have much use for milk anyway).
What about things like cheese, butter, yogurt etc? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:23 - Nov 16 with 1802 views | judespiveyg |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 10:51 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
I've been to a farm, it wasn't very nice. I think your point about city versus countryside is interesting but I'd argue it's more to do with the countryside being reliant on agriculture economically that tends to explain why you see far fewer vegans in rural areas.
Mass production of dairy and eggs means the killing of animals, there's no two ways about it. Whilst some farms might have good standards when it comes to animal welfare, many also don't. And you can't escape the fact that male calves and chicks have to be disposed of because of their inability to produce milk and eggs.
A few years back one of the chefs on Great British Menu cooked a baby male goat for his main course to highlight that so many male kids just go to waste as they are slaughtered in the production of goat milk but nobody really eats them. The goat milk and cheese industry is significantly smaller than cow dairy and egg production. Dead male animal babies are basically a by product of mass produced dairy and eggs. If you're vegetarian because you don't like the idea of killing animals for food then it's very hard to justify eating dairy or eggs.
I appreciate why that's a view you may not like given your personal connection to the dairy industry. |
Calves aren't killed for being male, not in the same way male chickens (or I guess goats) are. Once they are taken off their mother (only after several months), they get sold on, and get to live for several years. Eventually yes they become beef, but by that point it really seems more like an issue of vegetarianism rather than veganism. No calves from dairy farms (that I've heard of) are killed as babies. |  |
| I survived Ipswich 0-0 Burton |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:31 - Nov 16 with 1791 views | NewcyBlue |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:21 - Nov 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Genuinely never noticed, but then I drink oat milk (and I don't really drink tea or coffee so don't have much use for milk anyway).
What about things like cheese, butter, yogurt etc? |
Organic butters are very common on the supermarket shelf, as is yoghurt.
https://www.theethicaldairy.co.uk/ does cheese. Although eireblue recommended Tyne Chease and I love him for it. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:33 - Nov 16 with 1785 views | BLUEBEAT |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 08:15 - Nov 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You only get your milk, yogurt, cheese etc. from free range cows? How do you do that? I've never noticed free range versions of these items at the supermarket.
If anyone thinks Dairy isn't cruel, generally, they should watch Carnage by Simon Amstell. |
“etc”
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:43 - Nov 16 with 1764 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:23 - Nov 16 by judespiveyg |
Calves aren't killed for being male, not in the same way male chickens (or I guess goats) are. Once they are taken off their mother (only after several months), they get sold on, and get to live for several years. Eventually yes they become beef, but by that point it really seems more like an issue of vegetarianism rather than veganism. No calves from dairy farms (that I've heard of) are killed as babies. |
Without wanting to sound patronising, it's really important to move beyond anecdotal evidence from your own experience. Of course your personal experience of dairy farming is important, but you have been exposed to just a tiny amount of a large industry. Killing calves remains commonplace, sadly: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still
Ultimately male calves all end up basically being killed, but tens of thousands are simply killed and disposed of, they aren't even reared for meat. I'd have a problem even with the them being reared for meat given my own values, but the to kill and basically throw away male calves is something I'd hope most people feel pretty uncomfortable with. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:44 - Nov 16 with 1759 views | BLUEBEAT |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 08:37 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
I was vegetarian for about 25 years and then went vegan about 3 years ago. I'd always thought I'd end up vegan, it just took a while. If you're vegetarian for ethical reasons, as I was, it becomes increasingly hard to justify not being vegan. The dairy and egg industries both involve killing and mistreating animals on a mass scale in much the same way the meat industry does. You're not eating the flesh, but animals have died so you can have your three cheese omelette. |
Thanks for reply.
I do see this as the time in my life to make that step from vegetarian to vegan.
Food-wise isn’t an issue for me but what about the wider angle?
Clothing for starters. Especially as I’m a bit fussy with garments. I see Adidas now run a Vegan Stan Smith range, so that’s a start 😄 | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:46 - Nov 16 with 1746 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:44 - Nov 16 by BLUEBEAT |
Thanks for reply.
I do see this as the time in my life to make that step from vegetarian to vegan.
Food-wise isn’t an issue for me but what about the wider angle?
Clothing for starters. Especially as I’m a bit fussy with garments. I see Adidas now run a Vegan Stan Smith range, so that’s a start 😄 |
Personally I never wore leather or suede even as a vegetarian as I couldn't justify wearing a dead animal whilst not eating one. It's only really wool that I've cut out and to be honest I didn't wear much wool anyway. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:48 - Nov 16 with 1743 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:33 - Nov 16 by BLUEBEAT |
“etc”
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| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 12:24 - Nov 16 with 1721 views | Guthrum |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:06 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
The amount of land given over to grow crops for animal feed is huge though. Meat production is highly inefficient in terms of both use of land and use of water. There are lots of studies out there about this, and I think I'm right in saying that if everyone switched to a plant based diet we would use less land and less water overall than we do currently. As it stands somewhere between 65% and 90% (depending on your source) of soya is grown to feed livestock and they require a huge amount of it to produce a relatively small amount of meat. If that was converted for human consumption we'd likely need less of it than we do currently to feed the livestock population - which is eye wateringly vast - and we wouldn't need grazing land either. |
It's large. I've seen figures of 33% of arable - not pastoral - land dedicated to animal feed. Altho it was unclear whether that includes hay/silage production, which can take place on land unsitable for most food crops (e.g. too wet).
But, gven in many areas of the world we are already pushing way beyond the boundaries of what is viably cultivable (e.g. the arid regions around the former Aral Sea, as I mentioned), depleting finite water supplies (e.g. underground aquifers) and destroying ecosystems, then it behoves us to take a bit of care in not simply exploiting evey possible acre.
There are ways around this: GM and alternative methods of agriculture. Even chemical synthesis. But they are regarded as unpalatable by many people. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 12:32 - Nov 16 with 1711 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 12:24 - Nov 16 by Guthrum |
It's large. I've seen figures of 33% of arable - not pastoral - land dedicated to animal feed. Altho it was unclear whether that includes hay/silage production, which can take place on land unsitable for most food crops (e.g. too wet).
But, gven in many areas of the world we are already pushing way beyond the boundaries of what is viably cultivable (e.g. the arid regions around the former Aral Sea, as I mentioned), depleting finite water supplies (e.g. underground aquifers) and destroying ecosystems, then it behoves us to take a bit of care in not simply exploiting evey possible acre.
There are ways around this: GM and alternative methods of agriculture. Even chemical synthesis. But they are regarded as unpalatable by many people. |
Indeed, but the use of water in animal farming is vast. Comparisons, for example, between the amount of water required to produce a litre of plant milk versus a litre of dairy milk are stark. The difference is massive. Similarly, the water and land needed to provide a kilo of animal protein versus a kilo of plant based protein is also hugely different. Ultimately if it's purely about environment then it might be optimal to have people eating very small amounts of meat from animals that graze and do not require vast quantities of food to be grown for them. That would mean tiny amounts of meat per person and it'd be very expensive. Personally I still wouldn't eat it, so you can have my allowance. Entirely plant-based would be pretty close though in terms of overall environmental impact. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:01 - Nov 16 with 1690 views | factual_blue |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 11:19 - Nov 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I don't live in Penge, I live in Anerley! |
Exactly. Penge. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:26 - Nov 16 with 1669 views | eireblue |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 12:24 - Nov 16 by Guthrum |
It's large. I've seen figures of 33% of arable - not pastoral - land dedicated to animal feed. Altho it was unclear whether that includes hay/silage production, which can take place on land unsitable for most food crops (e.g. too wet).
But, gven in many areas of the world we are already pushing way beyond the boundaries of what is viably cultivable (e.g. the arid regions around the former Aral Sea, as I mentioned), depleting finite water supplies (e.g. underground aquifers) and destroying ecosystems, then it behoves us to take a bit of care in not simply exploiting evey possible acre.
There are ways around this: GM and alternative methods of agriculture. Even chemical synthesis. But they are regarded as unpalatable by many people. |
The question I would pose back to yourself is along these lines.
What if it were the case that being vegan was better for you or the environment or both.
There are scientific papers out there, for instance, that show things like the U.K. could be food secure if it went vegan.
Would you be prepared to go vegan to help the environment, which in turn will help fellow humans, and also helps lessen animal suffering and killing? |  | | |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:30 - Nov 16 with 1664 views | hype313 |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:26 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
The question I would pose back to yourself is along these lines.
What if it were the case that being vegan was better for you or the environment or both.
There are scientific papers out there, for instance, that show things like the U.K. could be food secure if it went vegan.
Would you be prepared to go vegan to help the environment, which in turn will help fellow humans, and also helps lessen animal suffering and killing? |
Personally, I think everyone will be Vegan in the next 10-15 years, Farming is becoming financially unviable, whilst extremly amanging to the environment. Was watching that Cornish programme last night and the largest Butcher in the county was saying buy less meat. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:43 - Nov 16 with 1655 views | J2BLUE |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 08:15 - Nov 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You only get your milk, yogurt, cheese etc. from free range cows? How do you do that? I've never noticed free range versions of these items at the supermarket.
If anyone thinks Dairy isn't cruel, generally, they should watch Carnage by Simon Amstell. |
Next time you go to the supermarket have a good look. You'll be surprised.
Look out for brands like Yeo Valley. |  |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 15:05 - Nov 16 with 1632 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:43 - Nov 16 by J2BLUE |
Next time you go to the supermarket have a good look. You'll be surprised.
Look out for brands like Yeo Valley. |
I probably get confused at the difference between free range and organic. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 15:39 - Nov 16 with 1612 views | eireblue |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 15:05 - Nov 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I probably get confused at the difference between free range and organic. |
Fairly irrelevant to the cow that is missing a calf.
No-kill dairy farms however, are a better alternative for dairy addicts. | | | |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:27 - Nov 16 with 1584 views | Guthrum |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:26 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
The question I would pose back to yourself is along these lines.
What if it were the case that being vegan was better for you or the environment or both.
There are scientific papers out there, for instance, that show things like the U.K. could be food secure if it went vegan.
Would you be prepared to go vegan to help the environment, which in turn will help fellow humans, and also helps lessen animal suffering and killing? |
I like meat, but on a day-to-day basis don't consume that much of it. What I would miss is animal products - milk, cheese, eggs - which do form a fair chunk of my intake. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:31 - Nov 16 with 1577 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:27 - Nov 16 by Guthrum |
I like meat, but on a day-to-day basis don't consume that much of it. What I would miss is animal products - milk, cheese, eggs - which do form a fair chunk of my intake. |
Eggs were the toughest for me. I find oat milk to be at least as good as cow's milk, vegan yoghurt is good too. Egg is harder to replicate and tricky to replace when baking. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:44 - Nov 16 with 1565 views | J2BLUE |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 13:26 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
The question I would pose back to yourself is along these lines.
What if it were the case that being vegan was better for you or the environment or both.
There are scientific papers out there, for instance, that show things like the U.K. could be food secure if it went vegan.
Would you be prepared to go vegan to help the environment, which in turn will help fellow humans, and also helps lessen animal suffering and killing? |
If you could make the whole country vegan I would be all for it, for environmental reasons. It will sound mad but i'm not entirely sold on the animal rights concept. I don't ever see a lion on tv stop and consider the rights of the gazelle. I know vegans would argue we have a choice and the ability to consider it from the animal's side but we can also weigh up the health benefits of each diet. In my opinion a perfectly done vegan diet is probably the healthiest. I would question how feasible it is for the entire population to have that perfect vegan diet and adding in selected animal products would probably make the diet of most people healthier.
I'm not sure the Youtube idea of veganism where people get up to their chia seed, almond butter and berry steel cut oats would hold up for vast majority of the population.
I always come back to the grey area in these debates. For most vegans there is no grey area and that's fine but for me I think eating far less animal products of higher quality is about where I am comfortable on being on the scale. There are certain things i've switched to that I prefer like oat milk on cereal but there are other things like cheese on a pizza which I am unwilling to give up. I eat very little meat or eggs. I buy vegan alternatives to many things like sausages etc and prefer them but i'm unwilling to go fully vegan and I don't feel particularly bad about it to be honest. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:52 - Nov 16 with 1558 views | Herbivore |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:44 - Nov 16 by J2BLUE |
If you could make the whole country vegan I would be all for it, for environmental reasons. It will sound mad but i'm not entirely sold on the animal rights concept. I don't ever see a lion on tv stop and consider the rights of the gazelle. I know vegans would argue we have a choice and the ability to consider it from the animal's side but we can also weigh up the health benefits of each diet. In my opinion a perfectly done vegan diet is probably the healthiest. I would question how feasible it is for the entire population to have that perfect vegan diet and adding in selected animal products would probably make the diet of most people healthier.
I'm not sure the Youtube idea of veganism where people get up to their chia seed, almond butter and berry steel cut oats would hold up for vast majority of the population.
I always come back to the grey area in these debates. For most vegans there is no grey area and that's fine but for me I think eating far less animal products of higher quality is about where I am comfortable on being on the scale. There are certain things i've switched to that I prefer like oat milk on cereal but there are other things like cheese on a pizza which I am unwilling to give up. I eat very little meat or eggs. I buy vegan alternatives to many things like sausages etc and prefer them but i'm unwilling to go fully vegan and I don't feel particularly bad about it to be honest. |
Eating less but better quality meat and dairy is great in principle, but for most it's just as unrealistic as the chia seed, almond butter smoothie thingy. At an individual level it's fine, but higher quality and higher welfare animal products aren't affordable for many people. Plus meat is murder. | |
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| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:59 - Nov 16 with 1548 views | J2BLUE |
| Been a while since I’ve lobbed a vegan hot take in here on 16:52 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
Eating less but better quality meat and dairy is great in principle, but for most it's just as unrealistic as the chia seed, almond butter smoothie thingy. At an individual level it's fine, but higher quality and higher welfare animal products aren't affordable for many people. Plus meat is murder. |
That is a fair point.
Meat is murder is a point I fully acknowledge. | |
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