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Lets disregard the semantics of the use of the word 'plenty' - turning to the rest of the post...
Focus your anger on the government who allow them to get away with this, rather than the individuals themselves.
People were told it was OK to go abroad on holiday. People were told it was OK to 'eat out to help out'. People were told that it was OK to go back into the workplace.
I struggle with the idea that individuals are culpable with this, when the direction they have been given by the government was so unambiguous.
I also maintain that, after 9 months of being fed repeated b0llocks by this government, whilst all around, businesses collapse and livelihoods dissolve, people might grow rather weary of being told that they are inherently selfish.
Some of us are fortunate enough to have relative job security. Some of us have been on furlough since March. Some of us are able to pay our rent & mortgages without any real concerns, even in the midst of this fcking nightmare.
Plenty of others - and, by plenty, I mean a substantial minority - are not in that fortunate position. I would be loath to levy accusations of selfishness, or, indeed, any other accusations at these people, as I am not in their unfortunate position.
"Focus your anger on the government who allow them to get away with this, rather than the individuals themselves."
Why should we completely disregard the notions of personal responsibility and and common sense? Is there a person in the country who hasn't long know that Boris Johnson is a lying, incompetent, tosser?
You wouldn't trust him to look after your pet goldfish for the weekend, but plenty of people just assumed his word was good because it allowed them to do what they wanted to do. Now his word is telling them that they can't do what they want to do it's a different story.
Some of these same people who were quick to cite government guidance are now quick to ignore government guidance because it's preventing them from doing what they want. How do you explain that?
You seem to genuinely care about those who have suffered during the pandemic - as do I. That's why I haven't travelled. I haven't been on pub crawls. I've avoided seeing vulnerable people. I've made the sacrifices asked of us.
With that in mind, I suggest you aim your ire at the people who haven't been camped out in their living room for the last 9 months to try and protect their community from suffering and instead ask a little more from those who have instead been topping up the tan on holiday, flexing the rules whenever possible and now plan on doing whatever they like because 'Christmas'.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:25]
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:17 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz
Minority, yes, agree
You being one of them, you great big Malakas.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:21 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
You being one of them, you great big Malakas.
We’re not going to have this conversation again. When I went to Greece in the summer that was very, very clearly within the rules. Indeed, I changed my holiday destination to Greece from Spain at considerable personal expense to ensure that I remained within the rules. You can not level it at me that I am part of that minority.
The Paz Man
0
If you’re London based on 14:35 - Dec 21 with 1296 views
If you’re London based on 14:20 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
"Focus your anger on the government who allow them to get away with this, rather than the individuals themselves."
Why should we completely disregard the notions of personal responsibility and and common sense? Is there a person in the country who hasn't long know that Boris Johnson is a lying, incompetent, tosser?
You wouldn't trust him to look after your pet goldfish for the weekend, but plenty of people just assumed his word was good because it allowed them to do what they wanted to do. Now his word is telling them that they can't do what they want to do it's a different story.
Some of these same people who were quick to cite government guidance are now quick to ignore government guidance because it's preventing them from doing what they want. How do you explain that?
You seem to genuinely care about those who have suffered during the pandemic - as do I. That's why I haven't travelled. I haven't been on pub crawls. I've avoided seeing vulnerable people. I've made the sacrifices asked of us.
With that in mind, I suggest you aim your ire at the people who haven't been camped out in their living room for the last 9 months to try and protect their community from suffering and instead ask a little more from those who have instead been topping up the tan on holiday, flexing the rules whenever possible and now plan on doing whatever they like because 'Christmas'.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:25]
Therein lies the crux of the argument.
I've made my case as to why people have behaved as they have; you see it completely differently. Not really too much further to go with this, is there?
For the sake of good order, though:-
'Why should we completely disregard the notions of personal responsibility and and common sense?' - unsure how you've extrapolated this from my post. No-one is proposing this, and hardly anyone is actioning it.
'Is there a person in the country who hasn't long know that Boris Johnson is a lying, incompetent, tosser?' - well, yes, many. it's a pretty gloomy thought.
'Some of these same people who were quick to cite government guidance are now quick to ignore government guidance because it's preventing them from doing what they want. How do you explain that?' - I believe that our mutual friend from Brixton would consider this a 'straw-man'.
if, as you suggest, that there is a very small minority who are going to do whatever they want, regardless - which I wouldn't disagree with - then I would suggest that they will do so regardless of what you, I or anyone else might ask of them.
Your last paragraph reiterates the 'Divide and Conquer' mentality that this government would willingly have us all cultivate. Plenty of people haven't been able to 'hanker down' in isolation for 9 months, because it would bankrupt them. Are they culpable in all of this too?
4
If you’re London based on 14:35 - Dec 21 with 1295 views
If you’re London based on 14:29 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz
We’re not going to have this conversation again. When I went to Greece in the summer that was very, very clearly within the rules. Indeed, I changed my holiday destination to Greece from Spain at considerable personal expense to ensure that I remained within the rules. You can not level it at me that I am part of that minority.
You're right. I already told you that I wasn't going to be setting you straight because it is a waste of my time. As other posters have pointed out - you lie, you make your points with dishonesty and without integrity, you are entirely without decency.
You ignore the points put to you that counter your thinking, and instead fall back on repeating your little slogans. Your presence here is entirely without merit beyond being a welcome reminder of how low and deserving of our contempt some people are.
Frankly, to try to debate you on this subject is beneath me. I know that there are other posters on this thread who see it differently from me. I do not doubt their sincerity and decency. We see things differently but I respect them.
I do not respect you.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:35 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
You're right. I already told you that I wasn't going to be setting you straight because it is a waste of my time. As other posters have pointed out - you lie, you make your points with dishonesty and without integrity, you are entirely without decency.
You ignore the points put to you that counter your thinking, and instead fall back on repeating your little slogans. Your presence here is entirely without merit beyond being a welcome reminder of how low and deserving of our contempt some people are.
Frankly, to try to debate you on this subject is beneath me. I know that there are other posters on this thread who see it differently from me. I do not doubt their sincerity and decency. We see things differently but I respect them.
I do not respect you.
I find it ironic that you call me a liar whilst simultaneously making up that i flout Covid rules.
The Paz Man
0
If you’re London based on 14:38 - Dec 21 with 1288 views
I've made my case as to why people have behaved as they have; you see it completely differently. Not really too much further to go with this, is there?
For the sake of good order, though:-
'Why should we completely disregard the notions of personal responsibility and and common sense?' - unsure how you've extrapolated this from my post. No-one is proposing this, and hardly anyone is actioning it.
'Is there a person in the country who hasn't long know that Boris Johnson is a lying, incompetent, tosser?' - well, yes, many. it's a pretty gloomy thought.
'Some of these same people who were quick to cite government guidance are now quick to ignore government guidance because it's preventing them from doing what they want. How do you explain that?' - I believe that our mutual friend from Brixton would consider this a 'straw-man'.
if, as you suggest, that there is a very small minority who are going to do whatever they want, regardless - which I wouldn't disagree with - then I would suggest that they will do so regardless of what you, I or anyone else might ask of them.
Your last paragraph reiterates the 'Divide and Conquer' mentality that this government would willingly have us all cultivate. Plenty of people haven't been able to 'hanker down' in isolation for 9 months, because it would bankrupt them. Are they culpable in all of this too?
"Your last paragraph reiterates the 'Divide and Conquer' mentality that this government would willingly have us all cultivate. Plenty of people haven't been able to 'hanker down' in isolation for 9 months, because it would bankrupt them. Are they culpable in all of this too?"
What does going on a pub crawl or on a foreign holiday have to do with the people who have had to risk their health by working during the pandemic? I don't understand your point, unless the point you are making is that the people who have exhibited very little self control over the last 9 months have only made the lives of these people harder? In which case I agree.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:38 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz
I find it ironic that you call me a liar whilst simultaneously making up that i flout Covid rules.
What about the dozen other user of the site that call you a liar?
Are we to think that they are all somehow under my control? Seems more likely that they have formed their own opinion on your based on your conduct.
Anyway, stop wasting my time, I'm trying to talk to the other decent folk, they don't need you and your constant attempts to clamp onto them like a tick.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:38 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
"Your last paragraph reiterates the 'Divide and Conquer' mentality that this government would willingly have us all cultivate. Plenty of people haven't been able to 'hanker down' in isolation for 9 months, because it would bankrupt them. Are they culpable in all of this too?"
What does going on a pub crawl or on a foreign holiday have to do with the people who have had to risk their health by working during the pandemic? I don't understand your point, unless the point you are making is that the people who have exhibited very little self control over the last 9 months have only made the lives of these people harder? In which case I agree.
I know you'll hate me for saying this, but I think we could all do with toning down the rhetoric levels a bit and trying to speak more kindly to one another. Everything is so black and white at the mo - I fear people are losing the ability to tolerate difference, which in the end, will only lead to more strife.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
If you’re London based on 14:43 - Dec 21 by giant_stow
I know you'll hate me for saying this, but I think we could all do with toning down the rhetoric levels a bit and trying to speak more kindly to one another. Everything is so black and white at the mo - I fear people are losing the ability to tolerate difference, which in the end, will only lead to more strife.
I don't hate you Ulla. I think you're being a bit silly though. There's nothing in the post you quoted that needs to be toned down. It is perfectly civil. I just have a different opinion to Funge, there's no hostility there. Don't take this the wrong way, but when you have Paz upvoting you, it might be time to look at it from a different angle.
Me typing on here about my exasperation with the people who do not show empathy for others in their community will not cause the death of a neighbour. Me hitting up Cancun in July or popping over to Christmas party at the weekend might do though.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:48]
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:43 - Dec 21 by giant_stow
I know you'll hate me for saying this, but I think we could all do with toning down the rhetoric levels a bit and trying to speak more kindly to one another. Everything is so black and white at the mo - I fear people are losing the ability to tolerate difference, which in the end, will only lead to more strife.
Very much agree. Now is a very stressful time for everyone. Getting shouted at on the internet is not going to help anyone.
The Paz Man
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If you’re London based on 14:51 - Dec 21 with 1255 views
If you’re London based on 14:45 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
I don't hate you Ulla. I think you're being a bit silly though. There's nothing in the post you quoted that needs to be toned down. It is perfectly civil. I just have a different opinion to Funge, there's no hostility there. Don't take this the wrong way, but when you have Paz upvoting you, it might be time to look at it from a different angle.
Me typing on here about my exasperation with the people who do not show empathy for others in their community will not cause the death of a neighbour. Me hitting up Cancun in July or popping over to Christmas party at the weekend might do though.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:48]
Apologies - I didn't really mean to criticise anything in your specific post - its more a general thing both here and society at large. It feels like we're fraying at the edges and at each other all the time, with every debate aligned to tribalism.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:51]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
If you’re London based on 14:51 - Dec 21 by giant_stow
Apologies - I didn't really mean to criticise anything in your specific post - its more a general thing both here and society at large. It feels like we're fraying at the edges and at each other all the time, with every debate aligned to tribalism.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:51]
It is time for all people of the earth to come together and wear paper hats and receive socks. There is no time for arguing at this precious time.
footers KC - Prosecution Barrister - Friend to all
If you’re London based on 14:48 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz
Very much agree. Now is a very stressful time for everyone. Getting shouted at on the internet is not going to help anyone.
What about if your kids are going hungry? Is not wanting to help pay for their food going to help them?
Or what if you're suffering from being on the receiving end of homophobia? Perhaps you're being called a bumboy in the press for example.
Just wanted to check, are we still ok to wag our finger at the parents and blame them for the deaths of their children just because they had the audacity to try and get them to a safe environment?
No. That's all fine isn't it? Because Paz only cares about the abuse Paz receives. Everyone else can go fook themselves.
Nobody buys your act.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:51 - Dec 21 by giant_stow
Apologies - I didn't really mean to criticise anything in your specific post - its more a general thing both here and society at large. It feels like we're fraying at the edges and at each other all the time, with every debate aligned to tribalism.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:51]
I'm only getting a bit arsey with Paz. And that's genuinely deserved.
With everyone else it's just a lively debate.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:38 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
"Your last paragraph reiterates the 'Divide and Conquer' mentality that this government would willingly have us all cultivate. Plenty of people haven't been able to 'hanker down' in isolation for 9 months, because it would bankrupt them. Are they culpable in all of this too?"
What does going on a pub crawl or on a foreign holiday have to do with the people who have had to risk their health by working during the pandemic? I don't understand your point, unless the point you are making is that the people who have exhibited very little self control over the last 9 months have only made the lives of these people harder? In which case I agree.
Spruce, you have a pretty clear and personal definition of what constitutes personal responsibility. That's fine- I'm not gonna scrutinise it, as, well, it's your definition.
Consider, though, that others might consider that the boundaries of 'personal responsibility' include following the laws of the land and related government guidance. I'd suggest that this is quite a lot of people.
This is the point. If people are told, nay encouraged, by the government to follow a proposed course of action, how on earth does that make them selfish?
1
If you’re London based on 14:59 - Dec 21 with 1216 views
If you’re London based on 14:54 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose
I'm only getting a bit arsey with Paz. And that's genuinely deserved.
With everyone else it's just a lively debate.
Paz doesn’t count right? He’s there to be abused and told he is some kind of second class poster who’s up votes are to be scorned and avoided at all costs lest one of the in crowd may become associated with the class outcast.
The Paz Man
0
If you’re London based on 15:05 - Dec 21 with 1218 views
Spruce, you have a pretty clear and personal definition of what constitutes personal responsibility. That's fine- I'm not gonna scrutinise it, as, well, it's your definition.
Consider, though, that others might consider that the boundaries of 'personal responsibility' include following the laws of the land and related government guidance. I'd suggest that this is quite a lot of people.
This is the point. If people are told, nay encouraged, by the government to follow a proposed course of action, how on earth does that make them selfish?
If I accept your point that people were perfectly correct, and not selfish, to just follow government advice and go on holiday/have a pub crawl etc. etc. what am I now to make of some of the same people who now don't want to follow government advice because it will negatively impact their Christmas?
What I am saying is, there are plenty of people who have used this 'government advice' line in order to do what they wanted to do anyway. I don't care if Boris Johnson said it was ok. You only had to look at the news to see that going abroad in the middle of summer was not a cautious, sensible or community-minded thing to do.
If people needed a holiday, they could have stayed in the country, and not gone to Spain. But people made that choice, and I don't think they should have any expectations that other people shouldn't question it now, especially considering how things have turned out.
When the pandemic was at it's peak in NYC, when we had mobile morgues in the street, would any of you have wanted me to rock up in your local community, like some kind of plague rat, risking your friends, neighbours, businesses just because I needed a bit of a break? I'm going to go ahead and guess that answer would be no.
I do make you right on one point though, it is the government's fault that they gave them an excuse to use.
My question to you would be - How does it not make them selfish to happily follow advice and go on holiday, but not follow other advice not aimed at helping them, but may well keep someone else alive to enjoy Christmas with their relatives next year?
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 15:11]
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 14:59 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz
Paz doesn’t count right? He’s there to be abused and told he is some kind of second class poster who’s up votes are to be scorned and avoided at all costs lest one of the in crowd may become associated with the class outcast.
Paz receives back but a fraction of the hatred he dishes out. He should be happy that he isn't treated the way he treats others.
Why is Paz referring to himself in the third person like Cleaner?
[Post edited 21 Dec 2020 15:08]
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 15:23 - Dec 21 by footers
I keep a plank with a nail in it under my bed for this very reason. Can't be too careful.
You told me that was a BDSM thing!
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
If you’re London based on 12:24 - Dec 21 by clive_baker
Quite.
Ultimately leadership is about delivering results, it's not necessarily about being popular. Johnson is happy to dismiss KS as captain hindsight, but he's demonstrated no foresight or decisiveness. Johnson seems to delay every decision until we're presented with 2 dire options at the 11th hour and presents the least bad option as the preferable route forward.
As you say it's basics in terms of communication. Putting the 20k number on this thing back in Feb / March was ludicrous when it was all so uncertain. No country has achieved anything like that. If there's uncertainty, say it's uncertain. Making promises and constant U turns is utterly ridiculous, the whole thing has been mismanaged spectacularly.
Johnson’s technique for dealing with problems is to let them run out of control, building to a point of sufficient crisis that delay is no longer viable. That way the choice becomes perversely easier because there are fewer options left. Wait long enough and there might be only one.
That is how he has dealt with Brexit. He imagines that brinkmanship is a negotiating strategy to wring concessions out of Brussels, but in reality it is just a way to simplify the decision by eliminating options that needed time to develop. He lets procrastination do the heavy lifting. He can then tell himself (and his audience) that the final outcome, while not perfect, is the best available solution. And maybe it is. But only because it is so late in the day and all the better solutions have long since expired.
It is a chaotic way to run anything: leaving it all to the last minute, relying on a critical mass of external pressure to get motivated. As a way of governing in a pandemic it is disastrous because there is no slack time between deadlines. The moment to make the tough choices is always now. The rate at which good options decay is exponential. The virus thrives on indecision. Johnson’s method is effective for one thing, though: it guarantees a sustained pitch of political drama, with the figure of the prime minister lit centre stage. It forces the nation to hang on his word, waiting for him to act, while the consequences of his inaction play out. That bathes him in an aura of power, but it is not leadership.
If you’re London based on 13:16 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue
Whilst there is no doubt that is all true, surely there has to be a time when the "but Cummings" argument stops and people start taking some personal responsibility despite the poorness of the government?
People aren't going to get away from restrictions in the long term by ignoring them in the short term. It's only going to make everything stretch out even longer.
SB
It's not about the "yeah, but Cummings..." defence, but more that is the key point when a large number of people who were making huge sacrifices and hurting themselves and their careers in the process were given a big fúck you from the Government.
And the excuse is he was doing 'what any good Father would do' so you lost so much trust and respect.
Even now, Hancock was on TV saying what those leaving St Pancreas were doing on Saturday was a disgrace, but was defending Cummings travelling with symptoms in the harsher lockdown.
It lost them so much trust and goodwill, was the defining moment of the crisis
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