| Developing the youngsters 08:47 - Jan 19 with 2505 views | Herbivore |
It's not really happening is it? We've got a loanee playing ahead of Woolfenden, our best CB prospect in years. We're now looking at bringing in two more loanees to play in positions where some of our talented youngsters play. El Miz comes back and doesn't even get a look in despite clearly having lots of talent and offering something different. Dobra goes from not even being on the bench to being brought into a struggling team, then gets bombed out again at the first opportunity, disappearing from the bench even. Then there's the whole preseason incident.
Does anyone trust Paul Lambert at all to make our talented kids better footballers and to integrate them into the side? In fairness young Dozzer has at least finally been given a run of games this season, but I've not seen much to suggest he's getting lots better in the role he's being asked to play and in the system we're using. If anything it's not doing him many favours. |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 10:51 - Jan 19 with 479 views | Herbivore |
| Developing the youngsters on 09:44 - Jan 19 by Fixed_It |
Bottom line is we need to go up this year. IF the player(s) brought in increase our chances of doing so then it must be the right thing to do, irrespective of 'developing the younsters'. Unfortunately, the fact that we are hovering around the play-offs and not cruising at the top means that we cannot rely on the youngsters if we can bring in better. People are looking for any reason to slate the manager, but he would get slated either way. |
He's getting slated because he's hopeless. He bangs on about playing the kids but the reality of it is rather different (as is often the case when it comes to Lambert). We're not going to go up this year with Lambert in charge so I'd at least prefer that we develop some of our kids rather than playing loanees we won't ever sign permanently to get them into some sort of form and fitness for their parent clubs. | |
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| Developing the youngsters on 10:52 - Jan 19 with 476 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Developing the youngsters on 09:17 - Jan 19 by Garv |
Didn't realise Toto was on loan.
Dobra has had game time and starts even when he didn't have to, and while he didn't disgrace himself by any stretch, he's not nailed down a place. El Mizouni, well who knows? He's been struggling for game time at Cambridge. It's possible he's not yet good enough, and if that's the case and we can bring in a Championship player to play instead, in theory improving our chances of finishing higher in the table, then crack on. Whats our priority here? |
Mistakenly up voted you there. You have not addressed the OPs point. it is quite clear that there is no long term plan ( if any ) and that Lambert is fumbling around in the dark. The players you mentioned may well indeed not be up to it but because of the poor management of them we will never know that . I would suggest that the priority here is to get a good manager who will create a team that is competative in this and higher divisions. |  | | |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:56 - Jan 19 with 461 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:31 - Jan 19 by Basuco |
In general I think that youngsters are not developing as they should, at many clubs in English football, in the past any player in an England U18 game would be a first team regular, also they would be playing in a reserve side along side men, against men. If first team players did not start a league game they played for the reserves. Every club in every league is success driven, it must be so much harder for youngsters today to get the experience in competitive games to continue progressing to make a living as a pro footballer at a decent level. But that is not exactly the point you were making, but the issue is wider than just ITFC. Although to contradict all that Bish, Downs and Dozzell looked really good in midfield on Saturday and showed us what we have been missing and don't forget Bish and Downs will improve as they get more games in the coming weeks following their injury break. |
I think it's also hard for youngsters to settle into the team when we aren't playing well and personnel are changing all the time. And/or when they are getting little game time but in are being used in different positions. Experienced pros can deal with the uncertainty and changes, but really you want to be keeping things as simple as possible for the youngsters. And giving them a bit of a run too - they probably need a run of half a dozen games to get settled, rather than one appearance in September, 1 in December, etc... |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 10:57 - Jan 19 with 459 views | Herbivore |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:10 - Jan 19 by clive_baker |
It's a balance between developing the younger players and having the most competitive side possible. When they get a chance, like anyone else they need to take it. Gibbs came in against Charlton and went missing, it was too much for him. I think the bigger question there is why Lambert thought it right to throw him into central midfield for a game like that, especially alongside McGavin. McGavin has played more than anyone would've perhaps expected.
Lankester has had numerous chances, and not taken them. He's arguably been our worst player this season. Drinan has had chances, and done some nice bits but he looks miles short really, especially when you see the impact and goal threat someone like Norwood has when he's on the pitch. He's found himself back on the bench which feels about right.
Dobra has started 3 of the last 5. When he's played well such as at Plymouth, he's kept his place.
Woolfenden has mostly started when fit, I think Saturday was the first game he didn't in a long time. El Miz is the one I feel a little sorry for, but again he's gone out on loan to L2 and not started regularly, which might tell us something. I can't think of too many really strong performances from the younger lads this season, and certainly no examples where they've been binned off following one that really felt unjust.
For me the issue is less about the absolute chances these young players have had, and more the man management of it all. To your point no, I don't think Lambert and his team will develop these players particularly. I certainly don't trust Lambert in the respect of man management either. A proper manager worth their salt would manage the expectations, explain the decisions, not just bin someone off to the ressies. I know for a fact the communication is dire, and that's senior players saying that.
I do think for all the stick some of our senior players get, there's really a world of difference between pros like that and some of these younger lads though, who are still very wet behind the ears. We've also got a lot of them, and realistically we can probably only accommodate 1 or 2 per game. We're spreading the chances thin across a large number of young players, ideally we would probably have 2 or 3 obvious horses to back, and involve them regularly from the bench. It's the sporadic nature of it I don't get. From nothing, to starting, to back into the abyss.
Ultimately, we need to go up this season. We've got 26 games and we need to get it right, and select the side most capable of winning them. If we had to pick a team to play a playoff final tomorrow, I wouldn't imagine many people would have any of those youngsters in it. |
The development of them is piss poor though. You can point to some youngsters getting game time but it's incredibly sporadic and players will suddenly get parachuted into the starting XI from the under 23s, play a game or two, and then disappear again. That's no good for their development. Lankester is struggling but it doesn't help that he's in and out of the team and sqaud, playing wide one week then centrally the next. There's no plan or structure to it.
Several of our kids have the talent but they aren't being manager to nurture that talent. And you say we should only be playing one or two youngsters, but Lincoln seem to be doing pretty well playing with a good number of young players. We aren't in the Championship anymore, over the last 2 seasons we've consistently fielded one of the oldest line ups in the league and it's got us nowhere. | |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:01 - Jan 19 with 448 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:57 - Jan 19 by Herbivore |
The development of them is piss poor though. You can point to some youngsters getting game time but it's incredibly sporadic and players will suddenly get parachuted into the starting XI from the under 23s, play a game or two, and then disappear again. That's no good for their development. Lankester is struggling but it doesn't help that he's in and out of the team and sqaud, playing wide one week then centrally the next. There's no plan or structure to it.
Several of our kids have the talent but they aren't being manager to nurture that talent. And you say we should only be playing one or two youngsters, but Lincoln seem to be doing pretty well playing with a good number of young players. We aren't in the Championship anymore, over the last 2 seasons we've consistently fielded one of the oldest line ups in the league and it's got us nowhere. |
Arsenal’s young guns are firing them up the table. If your good enough you are old enough. |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:19 - Jan 19 with 428 views | clive_baker |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:57 - Jan 19 by Herbivore |
The development of them is piss poor though. You can point to some youngsters getting game time but it's incredibly sporadic and players will suddenly get parachuted into the starting XI from the under 23s, play a game or two, and then disappear again. That's no good for their development. Lankester is struggling but it doesn't help that he's in and out of the team and sqaud, playing wide one week then centrally the next. There's no plan or structure to it.
Several of our kids have the talent but they aren't being manager to nurture that talent. And you say we should only be playing one or two youngsters, but Lincoln seem to be doing pretty well playing with a good number of young players. We aren't in the Championship anymore, over the last 2 seasons we've consistently fielded one of the oldest line ups in the league and it's got us nowhere. |
Yes agreed, it's the management of it that I can't abide by. But then mismanagement is a constant theme throughout Lamberts time here. Nothing feels considered, just reactionary and sporadic. He's been here over 2 years now and I can't see any evidence of working towards something that's showing signs of being fruitful.
The most obvious young players we have that can genuinely stake a claim of being in matchday squads for me are Dobra, McGuinness, Woolfenden, Lankester, Dozzell & El Miz. Of those 6, more often than not half have been starting, but I would like to see the others involved from the bench, especially El Miz now he's back. They're probably the ones comparable with the Lincoln youngsters (the brightest of which in Brennan Johnson is a loanee).
I would put the likes of McGavin, Baggott, Simpson, Ndaba Gibbs etc in a separate bracket in terms of their development. |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:23 - Jan 19 with 423 views | BlueBadger |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:10 - Jan 19 by clive_baker |
It's a balance between developing the younger players and having the most competitive side possible. When they get a chance, like anyone else they need to take it. Gibbs came in against Charlton and went missing, it was too much for him. I think the bigger question there is why Lambert thought it right to throw him into central midfield for a game like that, especially alongside McGavin. McGavin has played more than anyone would've perhaps expected.
Lankester has had numerous chances, and not taken them. He's arguably been our worst player this season. Drinan has had chances, and done some nice bits but he looks miles short really, especially when you see the impact and goal threat someone like Norwood has when he's on the pitch. He's found himself back on the bench which feels about right.
Dobra has started 3 of the last 5. When he's played well such as at Plymouth, he's kept his place.
Woolfenden has mostly started when fit, I think Saturday was the first game he didn't in a long time. El Miz is the one I feel a little sorry for, but again he's gone out on loan to L2 and not started regularly, which might tell us something. I can't think of too many really strong performances from the younger lads this season, and certainly no examples where they've been binned off following one that really felt unjust.
For me the issue is less about the absolute chances these young players have had, and more the man management of it all. To your point no, I don't think Lambert and his team will develop these players particularly. I certainly don't trust Lambert in the respect of man management either. A proper manager worth their salt would manage the expectations, explain the decisions, not just bin someone off to the ressies. I know for a fact the communication is dire, and that's senior players saying that.
I do think for all the stick some of our senior players get, there's really a world of difference between pros like that and some of these younger lads though, who are still very wet behind the ears. We've also got a lot of them, and realistically we can probably only accommodate 1 or 2 per game. We're spreading the chances thin across a large number of young players, ideally we would probably have 2 or 3 obvious horses to back, and involve them regularly from the bench. It's the sporadic nature of it I don't get. From nothing, to starting, to back into the abyss.
Ultimately, we need to go up this season. We've got 26 games and we need to get it right, and select the side most capable of winning them. If we had to pick a team to play a playoff final tomorrow, I wouldn't imagine many people would have any of those youngsters in it. |
'It's a balance between developing the younger players and having the most competitive side possible'.
So we've opted for a side which isn't particularly competitive or developing the younger players. |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:25 - Jan 19 with 418 views | Herbivore |
| Developing the youngsters on 11:19 - Jan 19 by clive_baker |
Yes agreed, it's the management of it that I can't abide by. But then mismanagement is a constant theme throughout Lamberts time here. Nothing feels considered, just reactionary and sporadic. He's been here over 2 years now and I can't see any evidence of working towards something that's showing signs of being fruitful.
The most obvious young players we have that can genuinely stake a claim of being in matchday squads for me are Dobra, McGuinness, Woolfenden, Lankester, Dozzell & El Miz. Of those 6, more often than not half have been starting, but I would like to see the others involved from the bench, especially El Miz now he's back. They're probably the ones comparable with the Lincoln youngsters (the brightest of which in Brennan Johnson is a loanee).
I would put the likes of McGavin, Baggott, Simpson, Ndaba Gibbs etc in a separate bracket in terms of their development. |
The way Dobra is being developed is just a mess though. Early last season he was in the squad fairly often, then disappeared after the red card at Accrington. This season he was nowhere to be seen, then suddenly he starts a few games (at a point where we're struggling), now he seems to have disappeared again. He's another that has played in a few positions when given game time as well. If you could write a manual on how not to develop a young player that would be Chapter 1. It's crazy. | |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:30 - Jan 19 with 414 views | BlueBadger |
| Developing the youngsters on 09:40 - Jan 19 by Garv |
I know he meant McGuinness, but that doesn't make sense considering he and LW had been playing alongside each other until the last game when Toto replaced LW.
Good points regarding game time. The point remains though that if Harrop is better than what we already have on our books then he plays. |
Willing to bet that Lambert plays him and Judge as wide forwards. | |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:34 - Jan 19 with 406 views | itfcjoe |
| Developing the youngsters on 11:25 - Jan 19 by Herbivore |
The way Dobra is being developed is just a mess though. Early last season he was in the squad fairly often, then disappeared after the red card at Accrington. This season he was nowhere to be seen, then suddenly he starts a few games (at a point where we're struggling), now he seems to have disappeared again. He's another that has played in a few positions when given game time as well. If you could write a manual on how not to develop a young player that would be Chapter 1. It's crazy. |
It really isn't working, these young players don't know whether they are coming or going and the punishment, not talking to them, not explaining anything approach may have worked in Lambert's day as a player in the 1990s but as with any work place things have to adapt.
It sound slike mumbo jumbo, but there is a massive difference between someone from Generation X and one from Generation Z, and you can't treat people as though there isn't. The younger generation are more aware, older people will see it as more entitled, but they want to know why things are happeneing, and to be treated right. It isn't a master and servant relationship any more. |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 11:39 - Jan 19 with 392 views | Churchman |
| Developing the youngsters on 10:57 - Jan 19 by Herbivore |
The development of them is piss poor though. You can point to some youngsters getting game time but it's incredibly sporadic and players will suddenly get parachuted into the starting XI from the under 23s, play a game or two, and then disappear again. That's no good for their development. Lankester is struggling but it doesn't help that he's in and out of the team and sqaud, playing wide one week then centrally the next. There's no plan or structure to it.
Several of our kids have the talent but they aren't being manager to nurture that talent. And you say we should only be playing one or two youngsters, but Lincoln seem to be doing pretty well playing with a good number of young players. We aren't in the Championship anymore, over the last 2 seasons we've consistently fielded one of the oldest line ups in the league and it's got us nowhere. |
I’d add that our younger players are generally chucked sporadically into a shambles of a team where the senior players are either past it, useless or played out of position or any combo of the three. They then get blamed if it doesn’t go well. Things are such a mess from organisation to player fitness it’s hard to know if a young player is any good or not. They really stand no chance of developing.
How hard can it be to put players in their right positions? How hard can it be to know the way you want your team to play and to bring players in that fit the system you want? How hard can it be to realise that other people’s rejects, dross and injury prone has-beens are going to worsen a situation, not improve it?
ITFC has plenty of players on its books from young to geriatric, from reasonably talented to Conference standard. What we lack is a team in every sense of the word on and off the pitch. |  | | |
| Developing the youngsters on 11:43 - Jan 19 with 375 views | Chrisd |
| Developing the youngsters on 09:27 - Jan 19 by judespiveyg |
He means McGuiness, who isn't as good as Wolf and also isn't ours. Dobra looked great in the number 10 role in the EFL Trophy last year but has only played a handful of games on the wing since and has generally been kept out of the side by the disappointing Judge. With Harrop coming in it looks as if game time will be even harder to come by.
Dozzell's been our player of the season now he's finally been given a run of starts, same happened with Downes and Wolf last season. To get the best out of them you have to give our young players a run of at least 10 starts. I bet the same would happen with Dobra and Lankester. |
To be fair, he’s been playing better than Woolfenden over recent weeks IMO. I do understand the argument for not developing other club’s players, but has Woolfenden deserved his place regardless that he is one of our own or not? McGuiness is growing in confidence by the game. |  |
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| Developing the youngsters on 12:13 - Jan 19 with 330 views | BlueForYou |
How hard can it be to realise that football is about winning & to do that scoring goals is rather vital. How hard can it be to structure the clubs set up focusing on creating chances & scoring goals. |  | | |
| Developing the youngsters on 12:31 - Jan 19 with 315 views | Herbivore |
| Developing the youngsters on 11:43 - Jan 19 by Chrisd |
To be fair, he’s been playing better than Woolfenden over recent weeks IMO. I do understand the argument for not developing other club’s players, but has Woolfenden deserved his place regardless that he is one of our own or not? McGuiness is growing in confidence by the game. |
Woolf hasn't really had an opportunity to play alongside a more experienced partner this season though, he's had to be the senior partner playing alongside McGuiness which is a big ask for a 21 year old with limited experience. I don't think having two kids at CB works and if we only play one it should be Woolf. | |
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| Developing the youngsters on 13:17 - Jan 19 with 282 views | jayessess |
| Developing the youngsters on 12:31 - Jan 19 by Herbivore |
Woolf hasn't really had an opportunity to play alongside a more experienced partner this season though, he's had to be the senior partner playing alongside McGuiness which is a big ask for a 21 year old with limited experience. I don't think having two kids at CB works and if we only play one it should be Woolf. |
I do wonder if it might be worth swapping Woolfenden and Chambers round. Woolfenden is better with the ball and you'd hope at his age has a bit more energy to get up and down. Might also develop new skills in him as a player? |  |
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