| Go on Kier! 12:40 - Apr 16 with 7766 views | monytowbray |
Can we start calling him unelectable yet?! |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 10:32 - Apr 17 with 1265 views | Funge |
| Go on Kier! on 10:13 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
No, he’s not the enemy. But I want him to do a lot better.
Because as it stands he’s not bringing anything. Pragmatic electability or representing those who are being screwed over.
The slide from 1997 onwards is what happens to left-wing parties that lose their identity and their purpose. It’s Pasokification and seen throughout western democracies.
Sticking our heads in the sand is the worst thing we can do. |
What he's bringing is something other than Priti fcking Patel - I'll take that with both hands, thanks very much. |  | | |
| Go on Kier! on 10:44 - Apr 17 with 1243 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 10:32 - Apr 17 by Funge |
What he's bringing is something other than Priti fcking Patel - I'll take that with both hands, thanks very much. |
But you seem to be missing the point.
An opposition/alternative party that’s lost its underlying identity and purpose gives us Priti Patel every time.
This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen.
Meanwhile there are actual pressing issues such as climate change, the increasingly tough present and future for the young, for low-paid workers, for minorities, for regions ... sticking within the party political bubble and letting wonky careerists trade money, power and influence as if that’s the purpose doesn’t work.
And working towards 2028 or whatever as some are blithely suggesting? That’s just a dream world. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 10:54 - Apr 17 with 1220 views | giant_stow |
| Go on Kier! on 10:44 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
But you seem to be missing the point.
An opposition/alternative party that’s lost its underlying identity and purpose gives us Priti Patel every time.
This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen.
Meanwhile there are actual pressing issues such as climate change, the increasingly tough present and future for the young, for low-paid workers, for minorities, for regions ... sticking within the party political bubble and letting wonky careerists trade money, power and influence as if that’s the purpose doesn’t work.
And working towards 2028 or whatever as some are blithely suggesting? That’s just a dream world. |
"This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen. "
So Trump gave us Biden then by that thinking? Its not hanging together as a theory...
If we have to wait until 2028 to get rid of the tories, that's a direct function of the damage caused by Corbyn's version of labour. It seems a bit "cake and eat it" to talk of urgency on one hand and lack of compromise on the other. Basically, you're asking the populaiton to change to your will rather than meeting them half way to get things done. That's the outlook of someone who can afford to wait, not someone who needs change now . |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 10:55 - Apr 17 with 1219 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 10:44 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
But you seem to be missing the point.
An opposition/alternative party that’s lost its underlying identity and purpose gives us Priti Patel every time.
This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen.
Meanwhile there are actual pressing issues such as climate change, the increasingly tough present and future for the young, for low-paid workers, for minorities, for regions ... sticking within the party political bubble and letting wonky careerists trade money, power and influence as if that’s the purpose doesn’t work.
And working towards 2028 or whatever as some are blithely suggesting? That’s just a dream world. |
If you want to criticise the working till 2028 idea, that's fine. But only if you can suggest a realistic alternative in the current PLP who could lead the party to win the next election with 100+ gains and a Tory to Labour vote swing of at least 6%? I honestly can't think of anyone who could do that. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 11:00 - Apr 17 with 1201 views | pointofblue |
| Go on Kier! on 10:55 - Apr 17 by tractordownsouth |
If you want to criticise the working till 2028 idea, that's fine. But only if you can suggest a realistic alternative in the current PLP who could lead the party to win the next election with 100+ gains and a Tory to Labour vote swing of at least 6%? I honestly can't think of anyone who could do that. |
Also it has to be considered who will be leading the Conservatives into the next election as I’ll be amazed if it’s Johnson. If they have any sense whatsoever they’ll pin Brexit, Covid and sleaze on his leadership and bring in someone who isn’t tarnished by his ministry - someone like Sajid Javid could make things very difficult for Labour under Starmer but I’m unsure as to whether the party will remain tacked to the right. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 11:10 - Apr 17 with 1200 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 10:54 - Apr 17 by giant_stow |
"This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen. "
So Trump gave us Biden then by that thinking? Its not hanging together as a theory...
If we have to wait until 2028 to get rid of the tories, that's a direct function of the damage caused by Corbyn's version of labour. It seems a bit "cake and eat it" to talk of urgency on one hand and lack of compromise on the other. Basically, you're asking the populaiton to change to your will rather than meeting them half way to get things done. That's the outlook of someone who can afford to wait, not someone who needs change now . |
While i get Darth's attitude about change being needed quickly, it's a bit of a catch 22 in practice. It starts with the Tories getting in, poverty goes up so the Labour left argues we need bold solutions to deal with it (not something I disagree with) but then the party goes left, the public rejects it and the Tories win (2017.) Poverty goes up again, the Labour left argues that we need even bolder solutions to deal with it, but gets rejected again (2019.) And now it's being repeated - the problems get bigger, but the solutions become less popular and nothing gets solved.
FWIW I think the problems are definitely bigger than they were 10 years back and that the solutions definitely sit to the left of New Labour, but they've also got to be popular and affordable as a whole package. In my view, that means not committing to middle class giveaways like ending tuition fee which aren't progressive and only serve to appease a voter bloc which largely favours Labour anyway. A lot of the 2017 policy stuff was good (more council housing, better employment rights, more NHS and schools spending etc) and should be kept - it was better than Miliband's inability to decide whether he wanted to be anti-austerity or support cuts to control the deficit. However, when it was thrown in with tuition fees and widespread nationalisation and then framed as a policy platform for more than just 1 term, it became unrealistic and unworkable. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 11:12 - Apr 17 with 1197 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 11:00 - Apr 17 by pointofblue |
Also it has to be considered who will be leading the Conservatives into the next election as I’ll be amazed if it’s Johnson. If they have any sense whatsoever they’ll pin Brexit, Covid and sleaze on his leadership and bring in someone who isn’t tarnished by his ministry - someone like Sajid Javid could make things very difficult for Labour under Starmer but I’m unsure as to whether the party will remain tacked to the right. |
Yeah - I doubt it'll be Johnson either. Before the vaccine, I thought they'd have got rid of him by the end of 2021 but the rollout has given him more time. But when we have to start paying this back and he reverts to type, they'll bring someone else in. I doubt Javid would be the membership's choice though. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 11:21 - Apr 17 with 1182 views | pointofblue |
| Go on Kier! on 11:12 - Apr 17 by tractordownsouth |
Yeah - I doubt it'll be Johnson either. Before the vaccine, I thought they'd have got rid of him by the end of 2021 but the rollout has given him more time. But when we have to start paying this back and he reverts to type, they'll bring someone else in. I doubt Javid would be the membership's choice though. |
Unfortunately I agree. Out of those available I think he’d be the best choice for the country but I reckon they’ll probably settle on Gove. What really stands out is the lack of talent on the front benches considering they’ve been in power for approaching eleven years. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 11:50 - Apr 17 with 1177 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Go on Kier! on 10:55 - Apr 17 by tractordownsouth |
If you want to criticise the working till 2028 idea, that's fine. But only if you can suggest a realistic alternative in the current PLP who could lead the party to win the next election with 100+ gains and a Tory to Labour vote swing of at least 6%? I honestly can't think of anyone who could do that. |
The only hope for a Labour victory, or a "progressive" coalition would be if somebody could persuade Rory Stewart to set up a One Nation Conservative Party. If they took just 5 to 10% of Tory votes in key constituencies then we would have a chance of the second party in those constituencies sneaking in and Boris' Tories losing their majority.
I might write to him and beg. | | | |
| Go on Kier! on 11:52 - Apr 17 with 1173 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 11:21 - Apr 17 by pointofblue |
Unfortunately I agree. Out of those available I think he’d be the best choice for the country but I reckon they’ll probably settle on Gove. What really stands out is the lack of talent on the front benches considering they’ve been in power for approaching eleven years. |
I don't like Javid but of the Tories, he's one of the better ones. Despite the fact I really disliked his playing to the gallery over the Shamima Begum case as Home Secretary, he'd be a much more tolerable option than Gove, Patel, Hancock or most of the other likely contenders.
It's even worse than the last leadership battle, where by the end most of us ended up cheering on Jeremy bloody Hunt ffs. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 11:54 - Apr 17 with 1171 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 11:50 - Apr 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The only hope for a Labour victory, or a "progressive" coalition would be if somebody could persuade Rory Stewart to set up a One Nation Conservative Party. If they took just 5 to 10% of Tory votes in key constituencies then we would have a chance of the second party in those constituencies sneaking in and Boris' Tories losing their majority.
I might write to him and beg. |
Nice idea! Although to be honest, those are the kinds of voters that the Lib Dems really need to be picking up. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 12:03 - Apr 17 with 1153 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 10:54 - Apr 17 by giant_stow |
"This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen. "
So Trump gave us Biden then by that thinking? Its not hanging together as a theory...
If we have to wait until 2028 to get rid of the tories, that's a direct function of the damage caused by Corbyn's version of labour. It seems a bit "cake and eat it" to talk of urgency on one hand and lack of compromise on the other. Basically, you're asking the populaiton to change to your will rather than meeting them half way to get things done. That's the outlook of someone who can afford to wait, not someone who needs change now . |
The population’s already changing, silly boy. And it’s been happening for over a decade or more. Scotland rejecting Westminster more and more should have been raising alarm bells rather than dismissive waves of the hand. Ditto Brexit. Ditto Ireland. Ditto the Red Wall. Ditto BLM. Ditto the Green movement.
It’s about finally waking up to it and leading a way forward.
Retreating into the party political stuff is a massive misreading of where voters of all sorts of stripes are. The Tories realised this and co-opted Brexit. Labour it seems have realised nothing and think it’s 1994 again. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 12:10 - Apr 17 with 1142 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 08:47 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
Hmmm. I think that’s way off but it reminds me of this cartoon I saw a few weeks ago and that I can’t get out of my head.
It’s from the early 80s and was the demonisation of the left for that time. Clearly it’s disgustingly racist and homophobic and by any measure it’s Cummings and the Express that are the real loons here.
But it’s a useful example of where this stuff goes wrong. There’s nothing extreme about people who wanted gay rights, who were antiracist, who believe in Irish republicanism ... and they’re certainly not revolutionary communists ready to go to war. They’re ordinary people marginalised and stigmatised by society (or supportive of those who are). Or they’re people who believe all this can be better in society.
So let’s not regurgitate the prejudices of old even if that’s the tactic that’s always worked. It’s 2021 and we should be better than that. |
Jesus, that cartoon. They still pull the same Cultural Marxism rubbish. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 12:13 - Apr 17 with 1140 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 09:37 - Apr 17 by Herbivore |
So who do you suggest when Corbynites are Kryptonite to many traditional Labour voters and have proven to be unelectable, and when those who still worship at the altar of Corbyn seemingly won't accept anyone who isn't a Corbynite?
This is the issue here, Corbynites lost their sh!t - with some justification - at more centrist Labour supporters and MPs refusing to get behind Corbyn and instead seeking to undermine him. The Corbynites are now behaving in exactly the same way when it comes to Starmer and will do the same with any leader who isn't perceived to be from the left fringes of the party.
I'm sure you'll justify this to yourself of course, but it's pretty pathetic stuff and it ultimately leads to more Tory rule and the worst of in society continuing to get fooked over. What's interesting is how much time the likes of you and Koont dedicate now to starting and adding to threads about Starmer and actively undermining him, and how little the two of you focus on how awful the Tories are. Tory enablers come in many different guises it seems. |
Something happened in this country in 2017 that had traction.
Forget the person and think about the policies.
People who drill down social equality to a Corbyn cult are largely lazy in analysis. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 12:16 - Apr 17 with 1131 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 10:54 - Apr 17 by giant_stow |
"This isn’t unique to the UK either. Hilary and the back-end of Obama’s Democrats gave us Trump. Macron is giving us Le Pen. "
So Trump gave us Biden then by that thinking? Its not hanging together as a theory...
If we have to wait until 2028 to get rid of the tories, that's a direct function of the damage caused by Corbyn's version of labour. It seems a bit "cake and eat it" to talk of urgency on one hand and lack of compromise on the other. Basically, you're asking the populaiton to change to your will rather than meeting them half way to get things done. That's the outlook of someone who can afford to wait, not someone who needs change now . |
Are you blaming populism on Corbyn rather than the gaslighted population?
If that’s your view then no wonder these polls are a surprise to those who thought Starmz was the answer. I think the biggest mistake Labour’s right make is failing to understand how the Tories got such traction. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 12:22 - Apr 17 with 1111 views | pointofblue |
| Go on Kier! on 12:13 - Apr 17 by monytowbray |
Something happened in this country in 2017 that had traction.
Forget the person and think about the policies.
People who drill down social equality to a Corbyn cult are largely lazy in analysis. |
I think the 2017 election became Corbyn v anti-Corbyn - those who wanted him voted Labour, those who didn’t voted Conservative. What is often forgotten about that election is the Conservatives popular vote was only 0.8% off Blair’s landslide win in 1997 and they also regained a foothold in Scotland. Between them the Conservatives and Labour attracted over 80% of the vote.
The small parties were squeezed in the mix but, come 2019, the Brexit campaign became decisive - the Conservatives targeted the red wall over Scotland and the increased rhetoric drove Conservative voters north of the border back to the SNP, partly because Corbyn and Labour struggled to control the Brexit narrative from their end. Maybe thirty months of anti-Corbyn stories in the press didn’t help but whilst they seemed a party which was invigorated and had a spring in their step in 2017, the same feeling wasn’t prevalent leading up to the following election. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 13:05 - Apr 17 with 1092 views | HotShotHamish |
I believe that most on this thread hate the tories so much that fail to see the actual problem with both Corbyn & Starmer; they don't resonate at all with the working class, labour's biggest vote base.
You've virtually lost the working class vote in huge areas of the country. Canvass any working class community and you will find 30-40% support for the conservatives, whereas before these 2 clowns conservatives works be lucky to get 5%.
Labour policies designed to win in more affluent metropolitan areas have been a disaster for labour's core voting base, and nobody in the party is doing anything about it. | | | |
| Go on Kier! on 13:09 - Apr 17 with 1080 views | SpruceMoose |
| Go on Kier! on 13:05 - Apr 17 by HotShotHamish |
I believe that most on this thread hate the tories so much that fail to see the actual problem with both Corbyn & Starmer; they don't resonate at all with the working class, labour's biggest vote base.
You've virtually lost the working class vote in huge areas of the country. Canvass any working class community and you will find 30-40% support for the conservatives, whereas before these 2 clowns conservatives works be lucky to get 5%.
Labour policies designed to win in more affluent metropolitan areas have been a disaster for labour's core voting base, and nobody in the party is doing anything about it. |
What do you think it is about the Conservatives that resonates with the working class? |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Go on Kier! on 13:14 - Apr 17 with 1059 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 13:05 - Apr 17 by HotShotHamish |
I believe that most on this thread hate the tories so much that fail to see the actual problem with both Corbyn & Starmer; they don't resonate at all with the working class, labour's biggest vote base.
You've virtually lost the working class vote in huge areas of the country. Canvass any working class community and you will find 30-40% support for the conservatives, whereas before these 2 clowns conservatives works be lucky to get 5%.
Labour policies designed to win in more affluent metropolitan areas have been a disaster for labour's core voting base, and nobody in the party is doing anything about it. |
Define “working class” in the UK in 2021, and the issues that concern this group. [Post edited 17 Apr 2021 13:15]
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| Go on Kier! on 13:29 - Apr 17 with 1043 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 09:50 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
But a great many Corbynites voted for Starmer in the leadership election. They (and myself though never having been a Labour member) took him at his word that he would be the electable, trustworthy face of a progressive platform. And committed to unity.
That has quickly proved to be way wide of the mark. And Labour under him don’t even look like a left-of-centre party anymore.
Like everything the factional aspect is oversold and this is more about people basically disagreeing about the direction of the Labour Party and what it needs to stand for.
And if Starmer was about some pragmatic electability pure and simple he’s clearly struggling. I suspect it’s because people recognise the lack of substance and ideas surrounding him. Maybe the first thing to do is to get rid of whoever is guiding him?
Mandelson is also intimating the need for a shift but a lurch even further right along his lines would be crazy, surely? Would seem to be more about trying to travel back in time than forward. |
How can you say Labour don't even look like a left of centre party when they've barely had any opportunity to push forward policies, let alone an entire manifesto? I thought you were all about the policy? |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 13:37 - Apr 17 with 1025 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 12:03 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
The population’s already changing, silly boy. And it’s been happening for over a decade or more. Scotland rejecting Westminster more and more should have been raising alarm bells rather than dismissive waves of the hand. Ditto Brexit. Ditto Ireland. Ditto the Red Wall. Ditto BLM. Ditto the Green movement.
It’s about finally waking up to it and leading a way forward.
Retreating into the party political stuff is a massive misreading of where voters of all sorts of stripes are. The Tories realised this and co-opted Brexit. Labour it seems have realised nothing and think it’s 1994 again. |
What did Corbyn do to win over Scotland and the red wall? Because it seems they completely rejected him. Remarkably he also pissed off both leavers and remainers when it came to the issue of Brexit as well. Still, he got a good reception from some middle class kids at Glastonbury and that's what really matters. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 13:39 - Apr 17 with 1020 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 12:13 - Apr 17 by monytowbray |
Something happened in this country in 2017 that had traction.
Forget the person and think about the policies.
People who drill down social equality to a Corbyn cult are largely lazy in analysis. |
Yes, something happened in 2017. Labour suffered another electoral defeat to the Tories. Clearly it didn't have much traction given that 2 years later Labour managed to lose catastrophically to the Tories, the kind of electoral result that is almost impossible to recover from in one electoral cycle. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 13:49 - Apr 17 with 1011 views | giant_stow |
| Go on Kier! on 12:03 - Apr 17 by Darth_Koont |
The population’s already changing, silly boy. And it’s been happening for over a decade or more. Scotland rejecting Westminster more and more should have been raising alarm bells rather than dismissive waves of the hand. Ditto Brexit. Ditto Ireland. Ditto the Red Wall. Ditto BLM. Ditto the Green movement.
It’s about finally waking up to it and leading a way forward.
Retreating into the party political stuff is a massive misreading of where voters of all sorts of stripes are. The Tories realised this and co-opted Brexit. Labour it seems have realised nothing and think it’s 1994 again. |
If the population's opinion has changed at all, its gone right, as evidenced by the recent GE result and brexit. You're ok-ish at hot air, but there's no substance behind it. [Post edited 17 Apr 2021 13:50]
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| Go on Kier! on 13:51 - Apr 17 with 1007 views | giant_stow |
| Go on Kier! on 12:16 - Apr 17 by monytowbray |
Are you blaming populism on Corbyn rather than the gaslighted population?
If that’s your view then no wonder these polls are a surprise to those who thought Starmz was the answer. I think the biggest mistake Labour’s right make is failing to understand how the Tories got such traction. |
Your reply seems to bare no relation to my post - I'd answer if i could. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:50 - Apr 17 with 912 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 13:39 - Apr 17 by Herbivore |
Yes, something happened in 2017. Labour suffered another electoral defeat to the Tories. Clearly it didn't have much traction given that 2 years later Labour managed to lose catastrophically to the Tories, the kind of electoral result that is almost impossible to recover from in one electoral cycle. |
You play the man and not the ball again.
And that’s the issue, in your blinkered bubble the issues are all CORBYN and not the policies he represented, which by and large are supported in blind polls when there’s no propaganda screaming SOCIALISM=BAD. | |
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