| Go on Kier! 12:40 - Apr 16 with 8738 views | monytowbray |
Can we start calling him unelectable yet?! |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:53 - Apr 16 with 1559 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 17:30 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
I like how Corbyn is last on your list of why Labour lost so catastrophically in 2019 and any minor criticism of him is turned back into an issue of media perception rather than actually being Corbyn's fault.
This is precisely why people talk of Corbynites as being a cult. There's just no realism about how deeply unpopular he was with a large chunk of the electorate, including traditional Labour voters, or any attempt to understand the reasons why beyond simplistically blaming the media. |
I put him at the end because I was going to talk about him and his weaknesses.
I don’t think blaming the media is simplistic. The misrepresentation of Corbyn and the attacks on him were the most vicious and sustained I’ve ever seen. Even the BBC and the Guardian waved them through and sometimes joined in themselves.
I see a basically decent man who has been fighting for decades for the sort of causes we now take for granted. Who rather luckily got elected above his ability to lead the Labour Party but then helped formulate and present a very good platform for change. Based on bog-standard European social democracy and not “evil Marxism”.
But people nodded along while he was accused of everything under the sun ... he was someone who wanted to destroy Britain, who posed an actual “existential threat” to British Jews, who supported terrorism, whose policies were pie in the sky, who hated the Queen, who both wanted Brexit and Remain depending on the bubble you were in and so on and so on.
In my book, if you nodded along to that then you’re as bad as the people making it up in the first place. And you’ve cemented the worst Tory government and worst opposition for years to come.
And it’s a bit rich to be getting uppity because I’m pointing out real issues with Starmer and the Labour Party that have nothing to do with perception rather the substance (or lack of it). |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:54 - Apr 16 with 1553 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 17:27 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
No, I think you’re being disingenuous.
For you, it’s all about ignoring what happened and is happening in politics and society to excuse Starmer and even blame Corbyn.
Why do you think Labour has been losing voters since 1997 bar a mini-resurgence in 2017? That inability to see a doomed trajectory and insist on following the same path is going to keep the Tories in power for another decade until another party entirely comes along.
What is the point? |
Eh? I'm not ignoring what happened - I've said that Brown, Miliband and Corbyn were all largely responsible for their own election defeats.
There are a variety of reasons - The Iraq War, 2008 crisis and failure to communicate why it happened, failure of the Labour leadership to campaign properly in the referendum and the subsequent splitting of the Labour voting coalition, Corbyn's dodgy past associations. I agree that it can't all be pinned on one person or era.
While "losing voters since 1997 except for 2017" is true, it's also spin. It's true that Labour lost votes under Blair, but they were still convincing victories, which 2017 wasn't. 2017 was also the biggest jump in the Tory vote share. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:57 - Apr 16 with 1546 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 17:29 - Apr 16 by giant_stow |
The SNP and its braveheart populist appeal to simpletons approach. Always good to have an enemy to blame and didn;t they just. |
Time for your tea, ullaa. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:03 - Apr 16 with 1536 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 17:53 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
I put him at the end because I was going to talk about him and his weaknesses.
I don’t think blaming the media is simplistic. The misrepresentation of Corbyn and the attacks on him were the most vicious and sustained I’ve ever seen. Even the BBC and the Guardian waved them through and sometimes joined in themselves.
I see a basically decent man who has been fighting for decades for the sort of causes we now take for granted. Who rather luckily got elected above his ability to lead the Labour Party but then helped formulate and present a very good platform for change. Based on bog-standard European social democracy and not “evil Marxism”.
But people nodded along while he was accused of everything under the sun ... he was someone who wanted to destroy Britain, who posed an actual “existential threat” to British Jews, who supported terrorism, whose policies were pie in the sky, who hated the Queen, who both wanted Brexit and Remain depending on the bubble you were in and so on and so on.
In my book, if you nodded along to that then you’re as bad as the people making it up in the first place. And you’ve cemented the worst Tory government and worst opposition for years to come.
And it’s a bit rich to be getting uppity because I’m pointing out real issues with Starmer and the Labour Party that have nothing to do with perception rather the substance (or lack of it). |
Keep drinking the Kool Aid, bro. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:06 - Apr 16 with 1523 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 17:54 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
Eh? I'm not ignoring what happened - I've said that Brown, Miliband and Corbyn were all largely responsible for their own election defeats.
There are a variety of reasons - The Iraq War, 2008 crisis and failure to communicate why it happened, failure of the Labour leadership to campaign properly in the referendum and the subsequent splitting of the Labour voting coalition, Corbyn's dodgy past associations. I agree that it can't all be pinned on one person or era.
While "losing voters since 1997 except for 2017" is true, it's also spin. It's true that Labour lost votes under Blair, but they were still convincing victories, which 2017 wasn't. 2017 was also the biggest jump in the Tory vote share. |
It’s not spin. The Tories were a shambles for a decade or more post-Thatcher. That’s why they were convincing victories.
But the votes were going from Labour and as soon as there were options like SNP in Scotland, Nigel started blaming foreigners and UKIP got up to speed, Plaid stepped up in Wales then these votes were gone for good. The Red Wall was the final nail as the Tories co-opted those earlier UKIP votes and many more by embracing Brexit.
You see a party that needs to get back to somewhere. But that is gone. They actually need to get back to reality and start addressing issues and opposing the trajectory that brought them here. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:08 - Apr 16 with 1513 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 18:03 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
Keep drinking the Kool Aid, bro. |
I will.
Keep complaining about the Tories. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:09 - Apr 16 with 1508 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 18:08 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
I will.
Keep complaining about the Tories. |
I will. It's them and 11 years of their government that are the real problem here. Which makes it even more of a shame that Corbyn handed them a massive majority that has likely condemned us to another decade of Tory awfulness. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:14 - Apr 16 with 1495 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 18:09 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
I will. It's them and 11 years of their government that are the real problem here. Which makes it even more of a shame that Corbyn handed them a massive majority that has likely condemned us to another decade of Tory awfulness. |
Gmpf.
Yeah, a flirt with genuine social democratic policies by the opposition brought about another decade of Tory awfulness.
They’ve really done a number on far too many of the British public. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:16 - Apr 16 with 1486 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 18:14 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf.
Yeah, a flirt with genuine social democratic policies by the opposition brought about another decade of Tory awfulness.
They’ve really done a number on far too many of the British public. |
Deluded. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 18:21 - Apr 16 with 1473 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 18:16 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
Deluded. |
That’s one word for it. I’d call it a pathological inability to understand that society is what we make it. And that we can make it better for more people if we want. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 22:14 - Apr 16 with 1400 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Go on Kier! on 12:51 - Apr 16 by Mullet |
Find me where I said that. Constantly kneecapping Starmer at every turn and pouring out venom at anyone who isn’t deluded enough to see that the electorate would never take to JC even when victory was there to be fought for, is widening that margin.
By splitting the country and scaring off voters who might push Boris et al out, the guilt is just as bad as any Guido spouting tosser. |
The point which rational democrats miss is that *a lot* of Corbynistas are revolutionary socialists of various types.
They would actually prefer four more years of a divisive, austerity driven, corrupt, capricious Tory Government to a moderate, socially cohesive, centre-left Labour Government or Coalition, because they believe that the former will help to usher in the *inevitable* revolution.
They want things to get worse, and would prefer Starmer to fail than succeed. It doesn't make sense unless you remember that they blindly believe that the emancipation of the Working Class is inevitable because a 19th century German Sociologist said so, based on a very partial reading of economic history, with a sprinkling of evolutionary supposition.
I'm not ascribing that position to any particular individual TWTD posters, but all left wing or centre-left TWTD posters would be well advised to check the actual loyalty of the commentariat who they follow. Many are revolutionary communists. |  | | |
| Go on Kier! on 22:25 - Apr 16 with 1383 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 22:14 - Apr 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The point which rational democrats miss is that *a lot* of Corbynistas are revolutionary socialists of various types.
They would actually prefer four more years of a divisive, austerity driven, corrupt, capricious Tory Government to a moderate, socially cohesive, centre-left Labour Government or Coalition, because they believe that the former will help to usher in the *inevitable* revolution.
They want things to get worse, and would prefer Starmer to fail than succeed. It doesn't make sense unless you remember that they blindly believe that the emancipation of the Working Class is inevitable because a 19th century German Sociologist said so, based on a very partial reading of economic history, with a sprinkling of evolutionary supposition.
I'm not ascribing that position to any particular individual TWTD posters, but all left wing or centre-left TWTD posters would be well advised to check the actual loyalty of the commentariat who they follow. Many are revolutionary communists. |
As someone who knows a far few Commie-to-the-point-of-North-Korean-and-CCP-applogists (unfortunately) I can tell you they take up a largely pointless fraction of Corbyn’s voters.
We actually want things to get better and change things, rather than trot along towards climate disaster, end-lifecycle capitalism, cronyism and authoritarian governments.
But if making stuff up with Mullet based on no evidence is your jam... | |
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| Go on Kier! on 22:37 - Apr 16 with 1373 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Go on Kier! on 14:14 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Again, just noisy baseless nonsense.
You spent 5 years denying policy talk in favour of the superficial attacks and the one-liners. Stop re-imagining this stuff. |
Maybe a tiny bit more respect for the person who has dedicated his life to serving society through our collective National Health Service, and who sees the life and death impacts that Tory cost cutting and croneytastic contract awarding have on a daily basis?
There are many reasons for his anger at Corbyn's two abject failures, but ideology isn't one of them. | | | |
| Go on Kier! on 22:47 - Apr 16 with 1371 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Go on Kier! on 22:25 - Apr 16 by monytowbray |
As someone who knows a far few Commie-to-the-point-of-North-Korean-and-CCP-applogists (unfortunately) I can tell you they take up a largely pointless fraction of Corbyn’s voters.
We actually want things to get better and change things, rather than trot along towards climate disaster, end-lifecycle capitalism, cronyism and authoritarian governments.
But if making stuff up with Mullet based on no evidence is your jam... |
Milliband lost and resigned with dignity. Had Corbyn done so after his first General Election defeat (rather than triumphantly fist pumping at rallies to celebrate his historic result, ffs) we might have been spared this corrupt, Enabling Act passing, Union-destroying bunch of spaffers.
He failed to understand that he was unelectable. He believed the hype that his inner circle told him about himself.
He lost a popularity contest to Theresa May, ffs.
And then had his ass handed to him on a platter by the Eton Mess and Cummings.
Utter vanity.
I watched a lot of PMQs during the Corbyn years. He was very, very poor. I genuinely don't think he has the intellectual capacity to cope with the PM role at PMQs, having to improvise to deftly defend attacks from every side on a random selection of topics. He could barely string together effective attacks from questions that he and a whole room full of advisors had a week to pre-write beforehand.
He wasn't very good. Sorry. And he was (fairly or unfairly- it doesn't matter, it's about public perception) tainted on a number of fronts (eg IRA, Anti-Semitism) which made it hard for Labour to build the coalition of support that it needed. He should have realised that after losing to May and resigned with good grace, as Milliband did. | | | |
| Go on Kier! on 23:17 - Apr 16 with 1358 views | giant_stow |
| Go on Kier! on 17:57 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Time for your tea, ullaa. |
Bit weird! |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 23:41 - Apr 16 with 1341 views | townblue |
This thread is great. A group of people who all want roughly the same thing but will never get it because they can't agree on how to get there. |  | | |
| Go on Kier! on 08:35 - Apr 17 with 1272 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 22:37 - Apr 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Maybe a tiny bit more respect for the person who has dedicated his life to serving society through our collective National Health Service, and who sees the life and death impacts that Tory cost cutting and croneytastic contract awarding have on a daily basis?
There are many reasons for his anger at Corbyn's two abject failures, but ideology isn't one of them. |
I’ve always given Badger respect for that. My sister has also given her professional life (and a lot of personal pain) to the NHS.
I don’t give him respect for him calling me an antisemite. Or for weaponising antisemitism because he doesn’t like Corbyn and the left.
If he then wants to moan about the Tories then I have little sympathy for his views. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 08:47 - Apr 17 with 1252 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 22:14 - Apr 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The point which rational democrats miss is that *a lot* of Corbynistas are revolutionary socialists of various types.
They would actually prefer four more years of a divisive, austerity driven, corrupt, capricious Tory Government to a moderate, socially cohesive, centre-left Labour Government or Coalition, because they believe that the former will help to usher in the *inevitable* revolution.
They want things to get worse, and would prefer Starmer to fail than succeed. It doesn't make sense unless you remember that they blindly believe that the emancipation of the Working Class is inevitable because a 19th century German Sociologist said so, based on a very partial reading of economic history, with a sprinkling of evolutionary supposition.
I'm not ascribing that position to any particular individual TWTD posters, but all left wing or centre-left TWTD posters would be well advised to check the actual loyalty of the commentariat who they follow. Many are revolutionary communists. |
Hmmm. I think that’s way off but it reminds me of this cartoon I saw a few weeks ago and that I can’t get out of my head.
It’s from the early 80s and was the demonisation of the left for that time. Clearly it’s disgustingly racist and homophobic and by any measure it’s Cummings and the Express that are the real loons here.
But it’s a useful example of where this stuff goes wrong. There’s nothing extreme about people who wanted gay rights, who were antiracist, who believe in Irish republicanism ... and they’re certainly not revolutionary communists ready to go to war. They’re ordinary people marginalised and stigmatised by society (or supportive of those who are). Or they’re people who believe all this can be better in society.
So let’s not regurgitate the prejudices of old even if that’s the tactic that’s always worked. It’s 2021 and we should be better than that. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 09:25 - Apr 17 with 1203 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 22:47 - Apr 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Milliband lost and resigned with dignity. Had Corbyn done so after his first General Election defeat (rather than triumphantly fist pumping at rallies to celebrate his historic result, ffs) we might have been spared this corrupt, Enabling Act passing, Union-destroying bunch of spaffers.
He failed to understand that he was unelectable. He believed the hype that his inner circle told him about himself.
He lost a popularity contest to Theresa May, ffs.
And then had his ass handed to him on a platter by the Eton Mess and Cummings.
Utter vanity.
I watched a lot of PMQs during the Corbyn years. He was very, very poor. I genuinely don't think he has the intellectual capacity to cope with the PM role at PMQs, having to improvise to deftly defend attacks from every side on a random selection of topics. He could barely string together effective attacks from questions that he and a whole room full of advisors had a week to pre-write beforehand.
He wasn't very good. Sorry. And he was (fairly or unfairly- it doesn't matter, it's about public perception) tainted on a number of fronts (eg IRA, Anti-Semitism) which made it hard for Labour to build the coalition of support that it needed. He should have realised that after losing to May and resigned with good grace, as Milliband did. |
I don’t disagree with any of that perspective, but at the same time it’s evident Labour needs to look at it’s future and how it wants to grow. Keir really ain’t cutting it. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 09:37 - Apr 17 with 1189 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 09:25 - Apr 17 by monytowbray |
I don’t disagree with any of that perspective, but at the same time it’s evident Labour needs to look at it’s future and how it wants to grow. Keir really ain’t cutting it. |
So who do you suggest when Corbynites are Kryptonite to many traditional Labour voters and have proven to be unelectable, and when those who still worship at the altar of Corbyn seemingly won't accept anyone who isn't a Corbynite?
This is the issue here, Corbynites lost their sh!t - with some justification - at more centrist Labour supporters and MPs refusing to get behind Corbyn and instead seeking to undermine him. The Corbynites are now behaving in exactly the same way when it comes to Starmer and will do the same with any leader who isn't perceived to be from the left fringes of the party.
I'm sure you'll justify this to yourself of course, but it's pretty pathetic stuff and it ultimately leads to more Tory rule and the worst of in society continuing to get fooked over. What's interesting is how much time the likes of you and Koont dedicate now to starting and adding to threads about Starmer and actively undermining him, and how little the two of you focus on how awful the Tories are. Tory enablers come in many different guises it seems. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 09:50 - Apr 17 with 1176 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 09:37 - Apr 17 by Herbivore |
So who do you suggest when Corbynites are Kryptonite to many traditional Labour voters and have proven to be unelectable, and when those who still worship at the altar of Corbyn seemingly won't accept anyone who isn't a Corbynite?
This is the issue here, Corbynites lost their sh!t - with some justification - at more centrist Labour supporters and MPs refusing to get behind Corbyn and instead seeking to undermine him. The Corbynites are now behaving in exactly the same way when it comes to Starmer and will do the same with any leader who isn't perceived to be from the left fringes of the party.
I'm sure you'll justify this to yourself of course, but it's pretty pathetic stuff and it ultimately leads to more Tory rule and the worst of in society continuing to get fooked over. What's interesting is how much time the likes of you and Koont dedicate now to starting and adding to threads about Starmer and actively undermining him, and how little the two of you focus on how awful the Tories are. Tory enablers come in many different guises it seems. |
But a great many Corbynites voted for Starmer in the leadership election. They (and myself though never having been a Labour member) took him at his word that he would be the electable, trustworthy face of a progressive platform. And committed to unity.
That has quickly proved to be way wide of the mark. And Labour under him don’t even look like a left-of-centre party anymore.
Like everything the factional aspect is oversold and this is more about people basically disagreeing about the direction of the Labour Party and what it needs to stand for.
And if Starmer was about some pragmatic electability pure and simple he’s clearly struggling. I suspect it’s because people recognise the lack of substance and ideas surrounding him. Maybe the first thing to do is to get rid of whoever is guiding him?
Mandelson is also intimating the need for a shift but a lurch even further right along his lines would be crazy, surely? Would seem to be more about trying to travel back in time than forward. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 10:00 - Apr 17 with 1158 views | Funge |
| Go on Kier! on 09:37 - Apr 17 by Herbivore |
So who do you suggest when Corbynites are Kryptonite to many traditional Labour voters and have proven to be unelectable, and when those who still worship at the altar of Corbyn seemingly won't accept anyone who isn't a Corbynite?
This is the issue here, Corbynites lost their sh!t - with some justification - at more centrist Labour supporters and MPs refusing to get behind Corbyn and instead seeking to undermine him. The Corbynites are now behaving in exactly the same way when it comes to Starmer and will do the same with any leader who isn't perceived to be from the left fringes of the party.
I'm sure you'll justify this to yourself of course, but it's pretty pathetic stuff and it ultimately leads to more Tory rule and the worst of in society continuing to get fooked over. What's interesting is how much time the likes of you and Koont dedicate now to starting and adding to threads about Starmer and actively undermining him, and how little the two of you focus on how awful the Tories are. Tory enablers come in many different guises it seems. |
'I'm sure you'll justify this to yourself of course, but it's pretty pathetic stuff and it ultimately leads to more Tory rule and the worst of in society continuing to get fooked over.'
Absolutely on point.
This debate regurgitates every fortnight, it seems.
Isn't Keith awful! Why can't we have Corbyn back! It's all pointless navel-gazing... meanwhile, Boris and fam continue to piss themselves at the continuing inability of the opposition to unite.
Starmer really isn't the enemy here. |  | | |
| Go on Kier! on 10:12 - Apr 17 with 1138 views | pointofblue |
For me, who is a complete sad drip who reads every manifesto then votes for the party who I agree with the most, the issue is I don’t know what Labour stands for now. Despite the faults, at least Labour had a direction and ideal under Corbyn - from the outside looking in they now seem to be trailing the 1997 of becoming Conservative Lite and waiting for the Conservatives to trip themselves up due to arrogance and/or tiredness from being in power for so long.
Don’t get me wrong, it probably will work whether under Starmer or his successor, and certainly the 1997 - 2010 government did more good for the country than the ones which have followed. But for me Labour need to be proactive rather than reactive and have done designated ambitions as, at the moment, they feel like a literal opposition; complaining of everything without having any answers of their own. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 10:13 - Apr 17 with 1137 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 10:00 - Apr 17 by Funge |
'I'm sure you'll justify this to yourself of course, but it's pretty pathetic stuff and it ultimately leads to more Tory rule and the worst of in society continuing to get fooked over.'
Absolutely on point.
This debate regurgitates every fortnight, it seems.
Isn't Keith awful! Why can't we have Corbyn back! It's all pointless navel-gazing... meanwhile, Boris and fam continue to piss themselves at the continuing inability of the opposition to unite.
Starmer really isn't the enemy here. |
No, he’s not the enemy. But I want him to do a lot better.
Because as it stands he’s not bringing anything. Pragmatic electability or representing those who are being screwed over.
The slide from 1997 onwards is what happens to left-wing parties that lose their identity and their purpose. It’s Pasokification and seen throughout western democracies.
Sticking our heads in the sand is the worst thing we can do. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 10:22 - Apr 17 with 1119 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 10:12 - Apr 17 by pointofblue |
For me, who is a complete sad drip who reads every manifesto then votes for the party who I agree with the most, the issue is I don’t know what Labour stands for now. Despite the faults, at least Labour had a direction and ideal under Corbyn - from the outside looking in they now seem to be trailing the 1997 of becoming Conservative Lite and waiting for the Conservatives to trip themselves up due to arrogance and/or tiredness from being in power for so long.
Don’t get me wrong, it probably will work whether under Starmer or his successor, and certainly the 1997 - 2010 government did more good for the country than the ones which have followed. But for me Labour need to be proactive rather than reactive and have done designated ambitions as, at the moment, they feel like a literal opposition; complaining of everything without having any answers of their own. |
That’s fair.
I’d argue that the Labour governments from 1997-2010 blew the chance to address the stuctural issues in our economy and society that we, our politics and our Union are now paying for. And then there’s Iraq and dodgy anti-immigration rhetoric. But they were better on the whole.
Considering they’re supposed to be the modern, progressive alternative, that’s quite a savage indictment of our politics. | |
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