| No middle ground with Cook 17:56 - May 16 with 4788 views | muhrensleftfoot |
In a couple of years He'll either be hated for selling the family silver in getting shot of academy graduates like Doz, Woolfenden, Nydam, Downes, Bishop etc, or he'll be a genius who rebuilt ITFC. I hope and I also fear.... |  | | |  |
| No middle ground with Cook on 07:12 - May 17 with 1724 views | BryanPlug |
| No middle ground with Cook on 23:42 - May 16 by patrickswell |
I think the most devastating quote so far from Cook has been the one about the atmosphere in the changing room being the same after a win as it was after a defeat. At its root, that is why Cook is opening the exit door for virtually the whole squad. He can coach them to be better players, but he can’t turn around players who are demotivated to succeed and laissez faire about failure.
This squad hasn’t looked comfortable in its skin for 3 years. Neither Cook or us can put up with that any longer. |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 07:49 - May 17 with 1686 views | Churchman |
| No middle ground with Cook on 23:42 - May 16 by patrickswell |
I think the most devastating quote so far from Cook has been the one about the atmosphere in the changing room being the same after a win as it was after a defeat. At its root, that is why Cook is opening the exit door for virtually the whole squad. He can coach them to be better players, but he can’t turn around players who are demotivated to succeed and laissez faire about failure.
This squad hasn’t looked comfortable in its skin for 3 years. Neither Cook or us can put up with that any longer. |
I agree, but I think the acceptance of mediocrity goes backs a lot further. McGoldrick pointed to it as well and he’s not alone. It stems from the top. Every aspect has had a run down feel for years. A ‘well 15th is fine’, ‘can we make do without this or that’, ‘ok, the paint is peeling and the toilets stink, but let’s keep cost to a minimum’, ‘Milton’s done well, but it’s a role we can manage without’. That’s how it’s felt to me.
Parts of the club have functioned, of course. Klug and co with one arm behind their back, but much hasn’t. What was Milne and Clegg’s remit? Keep the noise down? It was never clear to me beyond empty promises at season ticket time there was any ambition at all.
I’m sure all the managers wanted to be a success but even the most competent by far ultimately failed through lack of support. By failure I mean the Premier. In 14/15 that’s what we aimed for and rightly so. In reality, MM defied gravity.
No middle ground? Good. Ship out most of the players? Good. The replacements don’t have to be the best, just work hard, work together and have the right attitude. It’s a cack League and not hard to get out of.
Young players? I’d have loved them to succeed here. I thought some of them would rip up L1. But they haven’t and as they are no longer teenagers, maybe it’s best for both parties that they move on. [Post edited 17 May 2021 7:50]
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| No middle ground with Cook on 07:53 - May 17 with 1684 views | Pinewoodblue |
| No middle ground with Cook on 07:12 - May 17 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
Personally I believe any youngster finding themselves in our dressing room would soon have any enthusiasm drained from them. It is worth pointing out Chambers expected to be here next season.
Would like to wish any of our younger players, discarded, all the best for their future in the game.
You remove rotten apples from the barrel you don’t throw them all away. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 08:34 - May 17 with 1659 views | Vic |
| No middle ground with Cook on 23:42 - May 16 by patrickswell |
I think the most devastating quote so far from Cook has been the one about the atmosphere in the changing room being the same after a win as it was after a defeat. At its root, that is why Cook is opening the exit door for virtually the whole squad. He can coach them to be better players, but he can’t turn around players who are demotivated to succeed and laissez faire about failure.
This squad hasn’t looked comfortable in its skin for 3 years. Neither Cook or us can put up with that any longer. |
And chambers had a part to play in that inertia in the changing rooms. He has been a good bloke to have around the place, but him saying how wonderful it had been didn’t sit well with me. I was looking for him to bemoan the last few years and say what a nightmare it had been to be part of a team going down hill year on year. But there was none of that - just how great the club in, and how he’d taught the youngsters to pick up the crumbs off the floor!!
Going back to Micks days didn’t Berra saying something to the effect of needing to accept that we’re not the best any more? Settling for second best seems to have become endemic in the clud and esp the first team. I guess this may be why Cook has decided that a complete clear out- he clearly does trust himself or the players to change that mindset. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 09:08 - May 17 with 1614 views | tractorboy1978 |
| No middle ground with Cook on 23:42 - May 16 by patrickswell |
I think the most devastating quote so far from Cook has been the one about the atmosphere in the changing room being the same after a win as it was after a defeat. At its root, that is why Cook is opening the exit door for virtually the whole squad. He can coach them to be better players, but he can’t turn around players who are demotivated to succeed and laissez faire about failure.
This squad hasn’t looked comfortable in its skin for 3 years. Neither Cook or us can put up with that any longer. |
I think that's a big factor. It's not necessarily about ability but more mindset and character. We really lack leaders/strong characters throughout the team and have done for some time. It's encouraging to see us linked with Bradley, Morsy, Evans, Connolly. All of which have been captains at their clubs.
I know that PC has also been annoyed/perplexed how few of them come in early/stay late and actually want to improve hence his comment recently 'I'm not sure some of them even want to be footballers'.
I hate the expression 'wouldn't want them in the trenches with me' but it does feel a bit like that. How many of these can you hang your hat on for a 7/10 week in, week out? And to get promoted out of this division that's what you need - reliability and durability. |  | | |
| No middle ground with Cook on 09:24 - May 17 with 1590 views | hype313 |
| No middle ground with Cook on 07:12 - May 17 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
That all stems from Evans if truth be told, he didn't put any expectations or pressure on the managers in the second part of his tenure, he seemed happy to just tread water in the Championship and then the malaise followed. If the managers aren't under any pressure and know they won't face the sack then the whole apathy runs throughout the club.
People want to work in forward thinking, engaging organizations and you can't really blame the players if they were a manifestation of the DNA engrained in the club.
Which is why we should be thankful to Chambers because he tried to maintain standards and expectations but he was p1ssing in the wind unfortunately.
Hopefully we have a sea change happening where everyone is accountable for the fortunes, and I'm under no illusions that if things aren't progressing in a positive manner then there won't be 25 games to save jobs etc. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 09:45 - May 17 with 1552 views | Harlestonblue |
"FAMILY SILVER" ?????? | | | |
| No middle ground with Cook on 10:15 - May 17 with 1529 views | TractorCam |
If he becomes hated it won't be because he sold some underperforming players. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 10:22 - May 17 with 1515 views | Vic |
| No middle ground with Cook on 09:24 - May 17 by hype313 |
That all stems from Evans if truth be told, he didn't put any expectations or pressure on the managers in the second part of his tenure, he seemed happy to just tread water in the Championship and then the malaise followed. If the managers aren't under any pressure and know they won't face the sack then the whole apathy runs throughout the club.
People want to work in forward thinking, engaging organizations and you can't really blame the players if they were a manifestation of the DNA engrained in the club.
Which is why we should be thankful to Chambers because he tried to maintain standards and expectations but he was p1ssing in the wind unfortunately.
Hopefully we have a sea change happening where everyone is accountable for the fortunes, and I'm under no illusions that if things aren't progressing in a positive manner then there won't be 25 games to save jobs etc. |
Agree with this - except the comment about Chambers! He was undoubtedly a good captain, caring and really buying into the club. But unless he said and did things were not hearing about then sadly even he ended up inadvertently further endorsing the acceptance of settling for stability and even inevitable declaring and not demanding better.
Of course, none of use really know do we! Its all opinion and speculation, but that’s how it seems to me until I find out differently. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 10:36 - May 17 with 1482 views | bobbyramsey |
| No middle ground with Cook on 10:22 - May 17 by Vic |
Agree with this - except the comment about Chambers! He was undoubtedly a good captain, caring and really buying into the club. But unless he said and did things were not hearing about then sadly even he ended up inadvertently further endorsing the acceptance of settling for stability and even inevitable declaring and not demanding better.
Of course, none of use really know do we! Its all opinion and speculation, but that’s how it seems to me until I find out differently. |
I tend to agree re: Chambers. I think he rather liked the no - pressure, cushy lifestyle afforded by playing for ITFC and eventually became part of the problem, knowingly or not.
He was "surprised" to be leaving the club, I think he thought he had a comfy job for life. He probably would have had Cook not come along..... |  | | |
| No middle ground with Cook on 10:44 - May 17 with 1466 views | jayessess |
| No middle ground with Cook on 07:12 - May 17 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
I think everyone understands that, don't they?
If we'd released every player whose contract had ended and sold most of the older contracted players, I don't think it would've been in the least controversial.
You can think that and still think it's bad that a manager doesn't back themselves to develop players, mould their abilities or change their mindset where it's a problem.
You can still question the thinking that says "clear off" to promising 20-year-old Armando Dobra but offers a new contract to Gwion Edwards - as yet the only player it's confirmed that the management actually want.
It's very black and white to say the only possible way to transform a failing football club is to change every single player. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 10:46 - May 17 with 1460 views | clive_baker |
Inclined to agree with the sentiment. It's all so binary on here, it's like if you've been involved with the club for the past 3 years you are the problem, you must go, and anyone who hasn't is the solution and offers hope. Personally I think we've got some (not many, but some) good players, who have been spectacularly mismanaged and poorly looked after from a medical perspective so have largely been unfit. They've also been supplemented by some dross, in a bloated and disengaged squad, but I don't think they've become bad players. Downes and Dozzell for example, they'll be off to a higher level than we are, yet they're not good enough for us.
My fear is that we lose a bit of identity. People saying we can't live off sentiment, that's true too, first and foremost we need good footballers, but there is something to be said about a side that has that connection to the fabric of the club. If it wasn't for sentiment, we would all be supporting Man City.
Ultimately we're owned by a pension fund, they want a return and as fans so do we. The only way we'll see that is through promotion. Cook has a budget and he's going to play the percentages to give us the best chance of achieving those goals, through having the best players possible. Can't fault it really. We will need instant results though, I can't see there being a lot of patience with this approach. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:35 - May 17 with 1367 views | J2BLUE |
| No middle ground with Cook on 10:46 - May 17 by clive_baker |
Inclined to agree with the sentiment. It's all so binary on here, it's like if you've been involved with the club for the past 3 years you are the problem, you must go, and anyone who hasn't is the solution and offers hope. Personally I think we've got some (not many, but some) good players, who have been spectacularly mismanaged and poorly looked after from a medical perspective so have largely been unfit. They've also been supplemented by some dross, in a bloated and disengaged squad, but I don't think they've become bad players. Downes and Dozzell for example, they'll be off to a higher level than we are, yet they're not good enough for us.
My fear is that we lose a bit of identity. People saying we can't live off sentiment, that's true too, first and foremost we need good footballers, but there is something to be said about a side that has that connection to the fabric of the club. If it wasn't for sentiment, we would all be supporting Man City.
Ultimately we're owned by a pension fund, they want a return and as fans so do we. The only way we'll see that is through promotion. Cook has a budget and he's going to play the percentages to give us the best chance of achieving those goals, through having the best players possible. Can't fault it really. We will need instant results though, I can't see there being a lot of patience with this approach. |
Two points:
I don't think anyone has said Downes and Dozzell aren't good enough for us. I think it's more than people expect them to be off and it's far easier to accept it when the future looks bright for us. If we were still under Evans the reaction would be very different because we would know the replacements would be inferior. Under the new owners the replacements will likely be better right now, albeit with a lower ceiling, but we can't concern ourselves with the possibility of them being much better in the future. We need a return to at least the Championship ASAP. I think some people would rather see us finish mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad. Again, no judgement, but I want this club to succeed. If that's without some of our academy products then so be it. I'm sure Downes and Dozzell will go on to have good careers and I hope they do, but right now we MIGHT need something else. If we can sign some quality players and they are both happy to stay then great. I can't see it though.
You mention identity. The kids coming through have that connection, no doubt, but it's entirely possible for players to develop that connection. Success breed that connection. Today, 21 years after Magilton's heroics we're still talking about it and always will. How many Leicester fans thought Wes Morgan would end up a club legend when he joined from Forest at the age of 28? How many of the thought Vardy would be a club legend when they signed him from Fleetwood? Success breeds that bond. It doesn't necessarily have to be players from the academy. I realise some people have that connection to the club where watching the younger players come through is one of the main bits of enjoyment. I understand that but this club needs to improve dramatically and we need results fast. [Post edited 17 May 2021 13:45]
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:38 - May 17 with 1357 views | itfcjoe |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:35 - May 17 by J2BLUE |
Two points:
I don't think anyone has said Downes and Dozzell aren't good enough for us. I think it's more than people expect them to be off and it's far easier to accept it when the future looks bright for us. If we were still under Evans the reaction would be very different because we would know the replacements would be inferior. Under the new owners the replacements will likely be better right now, albeit with a lower ceiling, but we can't concern ourselves with the possibility of them being much better in the future. We need a return to at least the Championship ASAP. I think some people would rather see us finish mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad. Again, no judgement, but I want this club to succeed. If that's without some of our academy products then so be it. I'm sure Downes and Dozzell will go on to have good careers and I hope they do, but right now we MIGHT need something else. If we can sign some quality players and they are both happy to stay then great. I can't see it though.
You mention identity. The kids coming through have that connection, no doubt, but it's entirely possible for players to develop that connection. Success breed that connection. Today, 21 years after Magilton's heroics we're still talking about it and always will. How many Leicester fans thought Wes Morgan would end up a club legend when he joined from Forest at the age of 28? How many of the thought Vardy would be a club legend when they signed him from Fleetwood? Success breeds that bond. It doesn't necessarily have to be players from the academy. I realise some people have that connection to the club where watching the younger players come through is one of the main bits of enjoyment. I understand that but this club needs to improve dramatically and we need results fast. [Post edited 17 May 2021 13:45]
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" I think some people would rather see us finis mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad."
This is the sort of black and white painting people into position rubbish I'm going on about, it just simply isn't the case for anyone. |  |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:40 - May 17 with 1348 views | clive_baker |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:38 - May 17 by itfcjoe |
" I think some people would rather see us finis mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad."
This is the sort of black and white painting people into position rubbish I'm going on about, it just simply isn't the case for anyone. |
It's literally such nonsense. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:42 - May 17 with 1328 views | StokieBlue |
| No middle ground with Cook on 10:46 - May 17 by clive_baker |
Inclined to agree with the sentiment. It's all so binary on here, it's like if you've been involved with the club for the past 3 years you are the problem, you must go, and anyone who hasn't is the solution and offers hope. Personally I think we've got some (not many, but some) good players, who have been spectacularly mismanaged and poorly looked after from a medical perspective so have largely been unfit. They've also been supplemented by some dross, in a bloated and disengaged squad, but I don't think they've become bad players. Downes and Dozzell for example, they'll be off to a higher level than we are, yet they're not good enough for us.
My fear is that we lose a bit of identity. People saying we can't live off sentiment, that's true too, first and foremost we need good footballers, but there is something to be said about a side that has that connection to the fabric of the club. If it wasn't for sentiment, we would all be supporting Man City.
Ultimately we're owned by a pension fund, they want a return and as fans so do we. The only way we'll see that is through promotion. Cook has a budget and he's going to play the percentages to give us the best chance of achieving those goals, through having the best players possible. Can't fault it really. We will need instant results though, I can't see there being a lot of patience with this approach. |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:45 - May 17 with 1320 views | J2BLUE |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:38 - May 17 by itfcjoe |
" I think some people would rather see us finis mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad."
This is the sort of black and white painting people into position rubbish I'm going on about, it just simply isn't the case for anyone. |
I completely disagree and my post is far from black and white. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:52 - May 17 with 1297 views | clive_baker |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:45 - May 17 by J2BLUE |
I completely disagree and my post is far from black and white. |
I've not seen anyone suggest they would rather see us finish mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad. Perhaps I've missed it, but that would surprise me. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 13:58 - May 17 with 1268 views | J2BLUE |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:52 - May 17 by clive_baker |
I've not seen anyone suggest they would rather see us finish mid table with Woolf, Dozzell, Downes and Nydam then see us go up with a better squad. Perhaps I've missed it, but that would surprise me. |
I said I think that's the case., not that anyone has said it. Maybe it's a bit strong but that's the impression I get when people are worrying about these players leaving and going as far to suggest it's somehow losing our identity or selling the family silver. I don't know about you but I thought Dozzell and Downes would destroy this division. Same with Bishop. I was one of those people saying our midfield was ridiculous for this level. It hasn't worked out. It's always sad when our own players end up leaving but I think some people are dramatising it way too much. Most people on here who are in the know and have proven it (I believe that includes you?) have posted that we're targeting very high level signings who can step up if we go up. As I said, I don't doubt Dozzell and Downes will go on to better things but the club really needs success (if you can call getting back up to our minimal rightful level success) now.
I posted that it would be good to see them stay and put them in a good team but I can't see it happening. I can't imagine Downes is any happier about staying now we're set for another year in this division. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 14:08 - May 17 with 1248 views | clive_baker |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:58 - May 17 by J2BLUE |
I said I think that's the case., not that anyone has said it. Maybe it's a bit strong but that's the impression I get when people are worrying about these players leaving and going as far to suggest it's somehow losing our identity or selling the family silver. I don't know about you but I thought Dozzell and Downes would destroy this division. Same with Bishop. I was one of those people saying our midfield was ridiculous for this level. It hasn't worked out. It's always sad when our own players end up leaving but I think some people are dramatising it way too much. Most people on here who are in the know and have proven it (I believe that includes you?) have posted that we're targeting very high level signings who can step up if we go up. As I said, I don't doubt Dozzell and Downes will go on to better things but the club really needs success (if you can call getting back up to our minimal rightful level success) now.
I posted that it would be good to see them stay and put them in a good team but I can't see it happening. I can't imagine Downes is any happier about staying now we're set for another year in this division. |
I agree silver is a bit of a stretch, bronze might be more appropriate. I also don't disagree with that about some players moving on and people wetting themselves, I seem to remember people saying letting Josh Carson leave would bite us in the ar5e. Generally speaking, aside from a few notable examples, we've got good money for anyone who has gone on to achieve anything (or in McGoldrick's case we turned down good money).
I think for me the risk is we throw the baby out with the bath water this summer. I'm all for upgrading on the vast, vast majority of this squad. I think we've been let down by the Drinan's, Holy's and Kenlocks of the world to be honest, they're painfully average and if we can sign a better of standard of player to replace them, then great. We've got deep pockets this summer, and I fully expect an upgrade in quality across the board. I'm totally behind Cook in that respect. For me it just feels a bit all or nothing though, rather than sorting through the apples and sacking off the rotten ones, we're happy to chuck them all. That just doesn't make too much sense to me, when I think we all agree that a handful of our players have been let down by a) management and b) those around them. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 14:12 - May 17 with 1238 views | J2BLUE |
| No middle ground with Cook on 14:08 - May 17 by clive_baker |
I agree silver is a bit of a stretch, bronze might be more appropriate. I also don't disagree with that about some players moving on and people wetting themselves, I seem to remember people saying letting Josh Carson leave would bite us in the ar5e. Generally speaking, aside from a few notable examples, we've got good money for anyone who has gone on to achieve anything (or in McGoldrick's case we turned down good money).
I think for me the risk is we throw the baby out with the bath water this summer. I'm all for upgrading on the vast, vast majority of this squad. I think we've been let down by the Drinan's, Holy's and Kenlocks of the world to be honest, they're painfully average and if we can sign a better of standard of player to replace them, then great. We've got deep pockets this summer, and I fully expect an upgrade in quality across the board. I'm totally behind Cook in that respect. For me it just feels a bit all or nothing though, rather than sorting through the apples and sacking off the rotten ones, we're happy to chuck them all. That just doesn't make too much sense to me, when I think we all agree that a handful of our players have been let down by a) management and b) those around them. |
There's nothing I disagree with there. I think it's more a case of Cook expects them to go rather than doesn't want them but I have no evidence to back that up.
To go back to what I said again...I said the same on the previous page it has 20 up votes! Doesn't prove anything obviously but does show i'm not alone in getting that impression from some people. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 14:25 - May 17 with 1219 views | jayessess |
| No middle ground with Cook on 13:58 - May 17 by J2BLUE |
I said I think that's the case., not that anyone has said it. Maybe it's a bit strong but that's the impression I get when people are worrying about these players leaving and going as far to suggest it's somehow losing our identity or selling the family silver. I don't know about you but I thought Dozzell and Downes would destroy this division. Same with Bishop. I was one of those people saying our midfield was ridiculous for this level. It hasn't worked out. It's always sad when our own players end up leaving but I think some people are dramatising it way too much. Most people on here who are in the know and have proven it (I believe that includes you?) have posted that we're targeting very high level signings who can step up if we go up. As I said, I don't doubt Dozzell and Downes will go on to better things but the club really needs success (if you can call getting back up to our minimal rightful level success) now.
I posted that it would be good to see them stay and put them in a good team but I can't see it happening. I can't imagine Downes is any happier about staying now we're set for another year in this division. |
to be fair, I think if we sacked off the entire first team squad, gamed SMCP to bring in 22 ready-made high level players on salary levels no one else could afford, then managed promotion, I do sort of wonder how much pride I'd get from it and how much connection I'd feel to it? I'm sure the matchday experience of winning every week would suck me in over time and after so long failing it'd feel good regardless, but still... it'd still feel a bit cold, I think? | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 14:29 - May 17 with 1203 views | J2BLUE |
| No middle ground with Cook on 14:25 - May 17 by jayessess |
to be fair, I think if we sacked off the entire first team squad, gamed SMCP to bring in 22 ready-made high level players on salary levels no one else could afford, then managed promotion, I do sort of wonder how much pride I'd get from it and how much connection I'd feel to it? I'm sure the matchday experience of winning every week would suck me in over time and after so long failing it'd feel good regardless, but still... it'd still feel a bit cold, I think? |
As I said, no criticism from me. It was an observation. My answer would be that's what we had to put up with in the Championship under Evans so it's just evening itself out really. We've had it so bad with one hand tied behind our back. I think we deserve the pendulum to swing the other way a bit. | |
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| No middle ground with Cook on 14:36 - May 17 with 1195 views | Radlett_blue |
| No middle ground with Cook on 07:12 - May 17 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
Roy Keane alluded to it as well & while he probably wasn't wrong, he totally failed to solve the problem, despite being given a large playing budget by Championship standards.
Getting a group of well paid professional footballers to form a cohesive, motivated playing unit is very hard & the big risk we are taking is that we have more huge upheaval (including most of the coaching staff - shades of Keane again) & then if it doesn't work, Cook will be out & we'll start again from scratch. |  |
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