| Is our midfield structure a problem? 08:03 - Dec 1 with 3193 views | Dubtractor |
I've seen a lot on here talk about the defence needing improvements, but I'm not sure that's the real problem.
Looking at Sunday's game as an example, crewe got behind our midfield time after time with almost no effort, creating 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 positions, with lots of space to play in too. Given the amount of situations they faced, I think the defence actually did a decent job on the day.
I appreciate that we were looking to play on the front foot on Sunday, so probably too more risks in committing players forward, but that midfield was a huge problem.
|  |
| |  |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:09 - Dec 1 with 2047 views | Metal_Hacker |
Glad it's not just me Dubs
For me the problem throughout the season , in fact since the very first game of the season has been the midfield.Not sure if its structure or personnel but it's breached far too easily and over-ran game after game (with the odd exception)
Not sure what the issue is but yeah totally agree - midfield is our issue and has been all season.I'd like to see El Miz have a little longer if Carroll is still out as an alternative but the partnerships we've tried to date haven't worked properly.
Is it the partnerships or is it the personnel around the two pivots ? |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:14 - Dec 1 with 2028 views | chrismakin |
|  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:23 - Dec 1 with 2000 views | SamWhiteUK |
The midfield just went missing in the second half on Sunday. I didn't think the defence or the forwards did too badly, but every chance Crewe had just came from winning the ball off our midfield and driving straight through the middle |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:25 - Dec 1 with 1972 views | chrismakin |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:23 - Dec 1 by SamWhiteUK |
The midfield just went missing in the second half on Sunday. I didn't think the defence or the forwards did too badly, but every chance Crewe had just came from winning the ball off our midfield and driving straight through the middle |
It also came from our GK hoofing it to the nearest defender to Bonne, and the other long balls our back line pumped up the pitch ( Which lead to Celina's goal, so it also worked too)
But it wasn't just midfield accountable. | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:30 - Dec 1 with 1960 views | unstableblue |
I think on the three or four moments in the game where Crewe won possession in the middle of the park and then exposed a gap between our central midfield and back four and put our box under, is why there was so much doom and gloom on here, and a bad vibe in the ground at the final whistle. Despite a win and some very promising passages of attacking play from Town.
I think a couple of times it was player error to gift possession and other times we were just pushing up too much (which we encourage) WHILST Crewe were committing men forward. In the same vein Bonne should have scored in the last minute in a reverse situation. Despite these Crewe moments being bad our central defenders handled most of them well. But a better team would have punished us.
You could blame Fraser in a new role, but Evans was on the pitch for most of those Crewe moments. I do think Crewe were going for it. But our shape and discipline needs to be better, and perhaps we should have sat deep. But in a catch 22 situation we wanted to score more goals, be more positive and please the ground.
My point is that Town just need to be quicker and more dynamic in thinking, play and the execution of passes. And critical to your point is quicker in transitioning the shape of the team. It was our full backs not returning as quickly to position that was the issue. Rotherham as a bench mark, looked like they were moving shape twice as fast as us. And their passing and decision making was so much quicker.
Watching Leeds and Palace playing at a level way way beyond us, the speed of thinking, passing and play is incredibly fast.
So summary of my ramblings, we need better shape yes, but that shape needs to move a lot quicker and we need to move the ball and transition much quicker.
I’m sure the coaches will be lasering in on your concern. I hope Fraser gets more time to cement that role. |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:31 - Dec 1 with 1960 views | Steve_M |
It's a numbers game isn't it? If the team structure isn't right then we are left with two midfielders versus three a lot of the time, whereas at the start of the season the full backs were essentially midfielders. Add then to that Evans being largely ineffectual.
There's no intrinsic problem with 4-2-3-1,. we just aren't playing it very well at the moment due to a combination of players selected and form. |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:40 - Dec 1 with 1911 views | chrismakin |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:30 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
I think on the three or four moments in the game where Crewe won possession in the middle of the park and then exposed a gap between our central midfield and back four and put our box under, is why there was so much doom and gloom on here, and a bad vibe in the ground at the final whistle. Despite a win and some very promising passages of attacking play from Town.
I think a couple of times it was player error to gift possession and other times we were just pushing up too much (which we encourage) WHILST Crewe were committing men forward. In the same vein Bonne should have scored in the last minute in a reverse situation. Despite these Crewe moments being bad our central defenders handled most of them well. But a better team would have punished us.
You could blame Fraser in a new role, but Evans was on the pitch for most of those Crewe moments. I do think Crewe were going for it. But our shape and discipline needs to be better, and perhaps we should have sat deep. But in a catch 22 situation we wanted to score more goals, be more positive and please the ground.
My point is that Town just need to be quicker and more dynamic in thinking, play and the execution of passes. And critical to your point is quicker in transitioning the shape of the team. It was our full backs not returning as quickly to position that was the issue. Rotherham as a bench mark, looked like they were moving shape twice as fast as us. And their passing and decision making was so much quicker.
Watching Leeds and Palace playing at a level way way beyond us, the speed of thinking, passing and play is incredibly fast.
So summary of my ramblings, we need better shape yes, but that shape needs to move a lot quicker and we need to move the ball and transition much quicker.
I’m sure the coaches will be lasering in on your concern. I hope Fraser gets more time to cement that role. |
3 or 4 moments, blimey unstable that's understating it. They had so many opportunities to do damage but thankfully had no idea how to end an attacking phase. | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:41 - Dec 1 with 1907 views | Meadowlark |
I don't think the problem with our midfield is just defensively. There is never (hardly ever) an out-ball or a pass available through the middle. When we have the ball we are always looking to go out wide. This is OK as long as it is using the personnel who can deliver. but without Burns or Coulson lately we have missed that ability.
When the opposition have the ball they always seem to be able to waltz through the middle without much opposition. We allow them to have the ball too much.
I thought we looked better early in the season when Tom Carroll was utilised as the central defensive midfield player.
But I also think what we need is a settled team.
And while I'm having a moan, all our defenders are guilty of giving the ball away far too easily with their defensive headers. This might sound like a minor thing to pick up on, but it is so frustrating to see headers simply being headed back to the opposition when there is plenty of time to control the ball and pass it. Do the players not talk to each other? I find myself shouting "TIME," but to no avail. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:45 - Dec 1 with 1894 views | gordon |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:31 - Dec 1 by Steve_M |
It's a numbers game isn't it? If the team structure isn't right then we are left with two midfielders versus three a lot of the time, whereas at the start of the season the full backs were essentially midfielders. Add then to that Evans being largely ineffectual.
There's no intrinsic problem with 4-2-3-1,. we just aren't playing it very well at the moment due to a combination of players selected and form. |
My reckoning is that a 4-2-3-1 with attacking full-backs needs a whole lot of work-rate, energy and pace in the front six players to work well - I'm not convinced that Fraser, Celina or Evans (or Carroll for that matter) really have enough of those qualities to make it work - which is a problem because Celina and Fraser are two of our better players and both seem to be favoured by the manager.
Perhaps we'll be able to bring in a real monster of a defensive midfielder in January to play alongside Morsy, basically someone in the Ngolo Kante mould is what might compensate for the lower work rate of some of our forward players and get everything working OK. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:47 - Dec 1 with 1877 views | homer_123 |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:45 - Dec 1 by gordon |
My reckoning is that a 4-2-3-1 with attacking full-backs needs a whole lot of work-rate, energy and pace in the front six players to work well - I'm not convinced that Fraser, Celina or Evans (or Carroll for that matter) really have enough of those qualities to make it work - which is a problem because Celina and Fraser are two of our better players and both seem to be favoured by the manager.
Perhaps we'll be able to bring in a real monster of a defensive midfielder in January to play alongside Morsy, basically someone in the Ngolo Kante mould is what might compensate for the lower work rate of some of our forward players and get everything working OK. |
Flynne Downes? |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:50 - Dec 1 with 1866 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:40 - Dec 1 by chrismakin |
3 or 4 moments, blimey unstable that's understating it. They had so many opportunities to do damage but thankfully had no idea how to end an attacking phase. |
Looking back at extended highlights and thinking back at the those Crewe attacks it was only 4 second half in relation to the point about the midfield issues…. The only clear cut chance after their goal was when Madron shot over.
Don’t get me wrong they were glaring shape issues as I’ve described, but people are overstating the amount. But it needs sorting quickly.
And in that time edwards has a brilliant run and fluffs shot, and Bonne missed two barn doors.
5-2 was the correct score line as some have mentioned. The reaction you’d think it was 2-5. But that’s where people’s heads are at. [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 8:53]
| |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:00 - Dec 1 with 1821 views | chicoazul |
What we could do with is a solid experienced pro in there who will cover for the full backs, keep it simple, not care about going forwards, chat up the ref, and act without ego.
It’s a shame we don’t have someone like that isn’t it. |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:01 - Dec 1 with 1822 views | BseaBlue |
I tend to agree with this. I feel it needs a proper box to box midfielder which will add more agression to the midfield. I know Morsy is meant to be the enforcer but too often he is left isolated in there and we end up with the situations you describe.
Annoyingly, Flynn Downes would have complimented Morsy perfectly so we should be looking at that type of player. I would personally like to see what Wiredu from Colchester could add for us. I've really liked what I have seen of him.
I still feel that we need a centre half. Someone to organise us and provide a calming influence from the back as when we do end up in the over load situations, we still go into panic mode. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:11 - Dec 1 with 1797 views | DJR |
On Sunday, in the first half, Morsy was on the right and Fraser on the left, and I think it worked quite well with Fraser working the ball forward. In the second half, Morsy and Fraser switched which didn't seem to work as Fraser is best on the left, and he got little of the ball on the right. And when Evans was brought on, it was not clear what the system was. At one stage it looked like Fraser was the No. 10 but then it looked like Morsy was deep with Evans and Fraser together in front of him. Why we tinkered with the set-up in the first half I don't know, but it appeared to add to our problems. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:15 - Dec 1 with 1784 views | PhilTWTD |
Definitely need someone with more running alongside Morsy. Fraser just doesn't have the mobility to play there. PC said something along the lines of it working in some ways and not in others, I assume meaning going forward it added something but defensively left us vulnerable on the break. Agree re the defence, they did well in the circumstances. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:16 - Dec 1 with 1778 views | itfcjoe |
There was a really good Twitter thread, which I'll just copy and paste here - have to click on the links for the pictures:
One of the main problems we faced yesterday was the 3v2 situations Crewe were creating against our CB's.
- we were looking to press high & man for man to force them into mistakes; this was successful a couple times
- when they went long though we were exposed:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFX5V7KWQAQpp34?format=png
- Finney was operating higher up to become the spare man when they went long with our CB's occupied by the 2 strikers to create a 3v2
- our CB's were then stepping up to apply pressure on Finney leaving a striker unmarked in behind, final ball & poor timing of run saved us
- one thing we looked to do to stop this was when Evans came on for Chaplin & we went to a 433 shape
- Fraser & Evans would press, leaving Morsy to mark Finney & sweep up the 2nd balls
- we could then start to overload wide areas more on the ball
- on paper this made good sense
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFX8PCbXsAoFgpr?format=png&name=900x900
However we did appear to have some problems with our personnel & shape after this change was made:
- Morsy isn't the most ideal player to have as a sitter; he's way too aggressive defensively meaning he often leaves his position to apply pressure
- Finney was starting to move wider to get away from Morsy; Clements was occupied by the high positioning of Mandron so couldn't get across to Finney
- when we dropped deeper into a flat midfield 3, Fraser was overpressing leaving Finney free again
- Lowery now starting to get more on the ball & dictate the game so we pushed Fraser slightly higher to press him which didn't work well, shape was v disjointed
- Crewe bring on Knight for Griffiths which makes them a 3142 so we revert back to a 4231, Evans as the 10
Pretty manic final 10-15 minutes with the constant alterations; the midfield 3 didn't seem to know what they were doing/supposed to be doing after the substitutions. Clearly not a shape they've worked on in training, timing of our pressing after the changes was poor. |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:18 - Dec 1 with 1752 views | itfcjoe |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:09 - Dec 1 by Metal_Hacker |
Glad it's not just me Dubs
For me the problem throughout the season , in fact since the very first game of the season has been the midfield.Not sure if its structure or personnel but it's breached far too easily and over-ran game after game (with the odd exception)
Not sure what the issue is but yeah totally agree - midfield is our issue and has been all season.I'd like to see El Miz have a little longer if Carroll is still out as an alternative but the partnerships we've tried to date haven't worked properly.
Is it the partnerships or is it the personnel around the two pivots ? |
The very first goal of the season we conceded vs Morecambe was our midfield completely out of the game, and just our defence left totally exposed.
Sunday was more of the same, too often we get played round and through and the defence is just struggling as is outnumbered - the defence has been getting lots of criticisms but you can't keep leaving them 4 on 4 or 4 on 3, it's lucky many teams do not have enough quality to punish us | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:20 - Dec 1 with 1734 views | chrismakin |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:50 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
Looking back at extended highlights and thinking back at the those Crewe attacks it was only 4 second half in relation to the point about the midfield issues…. The only clear cut chance after their goal was when Madron shot over.
Don’t get me wrong they were glaring shape issues as I’ve described, but people are overstating the amount. But it needs sorting quickly.
And in that time edwards has a brilliant run and fluffs shot, and Bonne missed two barn doors.
5-2 was the correct score line as some have mentioned. The reaction you’d think it was 2-5. But that’s where people’s heads are at. [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 8:53]
|
yeah there's lots missing from the extended highlights. | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:21 - Dec 1 with 1740 views | itfcjoe |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:01 - Dec 1 by BseaBlue |
I tend to agree with this. I feel it needs a proper box to box midfielder which will add more agression to the midfield. I know Morsy is meant to be the enforcer but too often he is left isolated in there and we end up with the situations you describe.
Annoyingly, Flynn Downes would have complimented Morsy perfectly so we should be looking at that type of player. I would personally like to see what Wiredu from Colchester could add for us. I've really liked what I have seen of him.
I still feel that we need a centre half. Someone to organise us and provide a calming influence from the back as when we do end up in the over load situations, we still go into panic mode. |
It needs a 29 year old Cole Skuse in there - a player who's first (and only!) instinct is to be keeping one eye on what is going to happen if we lose the ball and ensuring that he has the back door covered | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:44 - Dec 1 with 1653 views | ArnieM |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:30 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
I think on the three or four moments in the game where Crewe won possession in the middle of the park and then exposed a gap between our central midfield and back four and put our box under, is why there was so much doom and gloom on here, and a bad vibe in the ground at the final whistle. Despite a win and some very promising passages of attacking play from Town.
I think a couple of times it was player error to gift possession and other times we were just pushing up too much (which we encourage) WHILST Crewe were committing men forward. In the same vein Bonne should have scored in the last minute in a reverse situation. Despite these Crewe moments being bad our central defenders handled most of them well. But a better team would have punished us.
You could blame Fraser in a new role, but Evans was on the pitch for most of those Crewe moments. I do think Crewe were going for it. But our shape and discipline needs to be better, and perhaps we should have sat deep. But in a catch 22 situation we wanted to score more goals, be more positive and please the ground.
My point is that Town just need to be quicker and more dynamic in thinking, play and the execution of passes. And critical to your point is quicker in transitioning the shape of the team. It was our full backs not returning as quickly to position that was the issue. Rotherham as a bench mark, looked like they were moving shape twice as fast as us. And their passing and decision making was so much quicker.
Watching Leeds and Palace playing at a level way way beyond us, the speed of thinking, passing and play is incredibly fast.
So summary of my ramblings, we need better shape yes, but that shape needs to move a lot quicker and we need to move the ball and transition much quicker.
I’m sure the coaches will be lasering in on your concern. I hope Fraser gets more time to cement that role. |
Everything about us is pedestrian and one dimensional. Tbh the tactics between Lambert and cook are not too dissimilar. |  |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:50 - Dec 1 with 1623 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:20 - Dec 1 by chrismakin |
yeah there's lots missing from the extended highlights. |
I wasn't talking about the extended highlights only.. albeit in those 10 minutes ALL attacking plays on the opposition box are shown.
Don't get me wrong CM, I'm not defending Saturday's display, it wasn't good enough, and to the OPs point there were problems in midfield and shape as I've described.
And as I am sure like you I have my head in my hands on those 4ish occasion where our shape parted like the red sea, but it wasn't to the extent being made out and in the main our CBs easily coped. Had it been a tougher opposition, its different gravy. | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:59 - Dec 1 with 1604 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:16 - Dec 1 by itfcjoe |
There was a really good Twitter thread, which I'll just copy and paste here - have to click on the links for the pictures:
One of the main problems we faced yesterday was the 3v2 situations Crewe were creating against our CB's.
- we were looking to press high & man for man to force them into mistakes; this was successful a couple times
- when they went long though we were exposed:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFX5V7KWQAQpp34?format=png
- Finney was operating higher up to become the spare man when they went long with our CB's occupied by the 2 strikers to create a 3v2
- our CB's were then stepping up to apply pressure on Finney leaving a striker unmarked in behind, final ball & poor timing of run saved us
- one thing we looked to do to stop this was when Evans came on for Chaplin & we went to a 433 shape
- Fraser & Evans would press, leaving Morsy to mark Finney & sweep up the 2nd balls
- we could then start to overload wide areas more on the ball
- on paper this made good sense
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFX8PCbXsAoFgpr?format=png&name=900x900
However we did appear to have some problems with our personnel & shape after this change was made:
- Morsy isn't the most ideal player to have as a sitter; he's way too aggressive defensively meaning he often leaves his position to apply pressure
- Finney was starting to move wider to get away from Morsy; Clements was occupied by the high positioning of Mandron so couldn't get across to Finney
- when we dropped deeper into a flat midfield 3, Fraser was overpressing leaving Finney free again
- Lowery now starting to get more on the ball & dictate the game so we pushed Fraser slightly higher to press him which didn't work well, shape was v disjointed
- Crewe bring on Knight for Griffiths which makes them a 3142 so we revert back to a 4231, Evans as the 10
Pretty manic final 10-15 minutes with the constant alterations; the midfield 3 didn't seem to know what they were doing/supposed to be doing after the substitutions. Clearly not a shape they've worked on in training, timing of our pressing after the changes was poor. |
That diagram is almost perfect, but its worse as on a couple of occasions it seems Clements was also pushed up at one point, or as you say dealing with players.
But as I said earlier the key problem is speed of transition of our shape. Morsy and Fraser need to be moving deeper quickly when we lose ball (as you say when hunting for presses or supporting attack) and Crewe are in transition, it was cheap turnover, slowness and over committing upfield that caused the gap portrayed in the diagram.
It was a mess when Evans came on - and that is Cooks fault front and centre (albeit Evans is WAY out of form).
Its a catch 22 at the moment though, we are demanding more expansive and aggressive forward play. Fraser in the two definitely gave us that, and we want Morsy breaking the lines and winning ball. But they need greater discipline in transition, and MORE PACE.
Harper clearly hasn't worked out in the deep two, but at least he had that athleticism. Morsy and Fraser (and Evans) are perhaps too slow.
But to finish, if Fraser and Morsy are to stay in those roles (doubt it), they need to given time... and shown diagrams like the one you post. Which exactly what Cook will be doing this week. | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:02 - Dec 1 with 1587 views | BseaBlue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:21 - Dec 1 by itfcjoe |
It needs a 29 year old Cole Skuse in there - a player who's first (and only!) instinct is to be keeping one eye on what is going to happen if we lose the ball and ensuring that he has the back door covered |
That could certainly improve the balance and I think your point with regards to Morsy's aggression and discipline is an excellent one. Do we think Morsy is mobile enough to be the box to box man to go alongside that though? My worry would be that having him alongside a 'sitter' would leave us with little drive in the midfield. | | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:04 - Dec 1 with 1581 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:15 - Dec 1 by PhilTWTD |
Definitely need someone with more running alongside Morsy. Fraser just doesn't have the mobility to play there. PC said something along the lines of it working in some ways and not in others, I assume meaning going forward it added something but defensively left us vulnerable on the break. Agree re the defence, they did well in the circumstances. |
I don't think the centre backs were really troubled, despite being stretched. And really Crewe only carved out one real chance from memory after their goal. A better side would have had a field day.
I also agree on the mobility. As I've stated on this thread, our problem is speed in transition, and speed of distribution. Fraser and Morsy are particularly slow. I guess that's why Harper was the original choice. But he is not comfortable in position in front of our D, error waiting to happen.
I guess Fraser may be seen as the option against lesser teams, as you get some of the brilliant forward threaded passes - see Bonne glaring miss at the end.
But Evans is probably going to return at Charlton and his confidence is gone.
Why not El Miz????? he'll hopefully have the chance to shine tonight. I note Charlton won their Pizza cup game! | |
| |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:06 - Dec 1 with 1559 views | HighgateBlue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:01 - Dec 1 by BseaBlue |
I tend to agree with this. I feel it needs a proper box to box midfielder which will add more agression to the midfield. I know Morsy is meant to be the enforcer but too often he is left isolated in there and we end up with the situations you describe.
Annoyingly, Flynn Downes would have complimented Morsy perfectly so we should be looking at that type of player. I would personally like to see what Wiredu from Colchester could add for us. I've really liked what I have seen of him.
I still feel that we need a centre half. Someone to organise us and provide a calming influence from the back as when we do end up in the over load situations, we still go into panic mode. |
Downes alongside Morsy would've been great to see. Edmundson alongside Wilson would've surely done a job, too.
Still, that would've robbed Cook of the "whole new squad of players" excuse if things had still gone badly... |  | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
