| Intriguing... 23:13 - Dec 3 with 2056 views | The_Major |
With all this talk that Cook should go one one side, and all the talk of giving him time on the other, I thought I'd compare Cook's record to the most obvious manager from our past where despite a poor start we did give him time, i.e. Sir Bob.
After 36 league games:
Cook: W11 D13 L12
Robson: W11 D11 L14
So Cook actually has slightly the better record, and if a couple of those losses for Sir Bob were draws, they'd be EXACTLY the same. Now, on one hand, you could say "Ha! That proves it pays to take time!" On the other, you could say that football in 2021 League One is vastly different from 1969 Division One, and so it's like comparing apples and pears. Plus you could argue that with the talent at his disposal, Cook should be doing better.
Personally, I offer no opinion either way, but it is an intriguing comparison.
Right, that's the blue touch paper lit, I'm running away. |  | | |  |
| Intriguing... on 23:15 - Dec 3 with 1563 views | J2BLUE |
Cook has got a large squad of quality players that most other teams in this league can only dream of. Right now he is failing. I hope he turns it around but we seem to have the same problems repeatedly. Hopefully McGreal will do some defensive work with the first team and it will all click but right now i'm not too confident to be honest. |  |
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| Intriguing... on 23:22 - Dec 3 with 1539 views | Keaneish |
| Intriguing... on 23:15 - Dec 3 by J2BLUE |
Cook has got a large squad of quality players that most other teams in this league can only dream of. Right now he is failing. I hope he turns it around but we seem to have the same problems repeatedly. Hopefully McGreal will do some defensive work with the first team and it will all click but right now i'm not too confident to be honest. |
Having spent years in dressing rooms and on training pitches in situations like this, the only way to stamp out individual errors is hard work and for players to step up to the plate. I’m in no doubt this back room staff and the players are doing what needs to be done behind the scenes and we can see little changes happening each week. Granted it’s been slower than anyone would have liked but I think we’re on the cusp of all this changing. |  |
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| Intriguing... on 23:25 - Dec 3 with 1517 views | J2BLUE |
| Intriguing... on 23:22 - Dec 3 by Keaneish |
Having spent years in dressing rooms and on training pitches in situations like this, the only way to stamp out individual errors is hard work and for players to step up to the plate. I’m in no doubt this back room staff and the players are doing what needs to be done behind the scenes and we can see little changes happening each week. Granted it’s been slower than anyone would have liked but I think we’re on the cusp of all this changing. |
That would be great. I am hoping he turns it around and leads us on an adventure. | |
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| Intriguing... on 23:25 - Dec 3 with 1513 views | chrismakin |
| Intriguing... on 23:22 - Dec 3 by Keaneish |
Having spent years in dressing rooms and on training pitches in situations like this, the only way to stamp out individual errors is hard work and for players to step up to the plate. I’m in no doubt this back room staff and the players are doing what needs to be done behind the scenes and we can see little changes happening each week. Granted it’s been slower than anyone would have liked but I think we’re on the cusp of all this changing. |
What are the little changes? Genuinely asking. |  |
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| Intriguing... on 00:24 - Dec 4 with 1462 views | BlueBadger |
| Intriguing... on 23:22 - Dec 3 by Keaneish |
Having spent years in dressing rooms and on training pitches in situations like this, the only way to stamp out individual errors is hard work and for players to step up to the plate. I’m in no doubt this back room staff and the players are doing what needs to be done behind the scenes and we can see little changes happening each week. Granted it’s been slower than anyone would have liked but I think we’re on the cusp of all this changing. |
Hurst just needed more time. The players were against him. He just needed time to implement his vision fully. |  |
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| Intriguing... on 07:13 - Dec 4 with 1368 views | bobbyramsey |
| Intriguing... on 23:22 - Dec 3 by Keaneish |
Having spent years in dressing rooms and on training pitches in situations like this, the only way to stamp out individual errors is hard work and for players to step up to the plate. I’m in no doubt this back room staff and the players are doing what needs to be done behind the scenes and we can see little changes happening each week. Granted it’s been slower than anyone would have liked but I think we’re on the cusp of all this changing. |
If these players are as good as we are led to believe then should they be making all these "individual errors?" Maybe they're not as good as we think they are..... |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 07:37 - Dec 4 with 1313 views | Herbivore |
I think it's all pretty meaningless. Robson was managing in the top flight on a limited budget at one of the smaller clubs at that level. Cook is managing in the third tier with one of the biggest and best resourced clubs in the league. That their records are comparable shows how poorly Cook has been doing, being bang average in the top flight was acceptable, being bang average in the third division with the squad and resources at our disposal is not. If anything your post strengthens the argument to get rid of Cook rather than to stick with him. |  |
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| Intriguing... on 07:43 - Dec 4 with 1307 views | MattinLondon |
| Intriguing... on 00:24 - Dec 4 by BlueBadger |
Hurst just needed more time. The players were against him. He just needed time to implement his vision fully. |
Hurst knew what was needed but he was far too clumsy in his approach. |  | | |
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| Intriguing... on 07:55 - Dec 4 with 1288 views | blueboyd |
it is actualy offensive to mention the name of Bobby Robson in the same breath as Paul Cook when discussing managerial quality regardless of how you want to throw stats around... how embarassing. |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 08:05 - Dec 4 with 1275 views | RadioOrwell |
Robson made 14 transfers in his whole time here.
That alone makes the comparison weak. |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 08:22 - Dec 4 with 1235 views | ArnieM |
| Intriguing... on 00:24 - Dec 4 by BlueBadger |
Hurst just needed more time. The players were against him. He just needed time to implement his vision fully. |
That would be the same players that downed tools on Cook …. Who also needs more time . |  |
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| Intriguing... on 08:51 - Dec 4 with 1142 views | Churchman |
In 68/69, Robson had half a season and finished 12th. He actually improved on the start the club had in that season which would have been partly down to the players adapting to life in Div 1. The next seasons went 18th, 19th, 13th. Different times and the best Board of Directors ever.
Coincidently Robson was given about 10 months as manager of Fulham before they threw him out. He inherited a really poor team at the start of 1968 and basically blamed him for relegation. 8th in Div 2 wasn’t good enough so they fired him via the Evening Standard. Couldn’t ‘get a tune’ out of Div 2s best squad I suppose. Their loss was literally our gain. Of course with modern day patience levels, Robson would have been out on his ear half way through his second season.
Different times, divisions, different people and of course age/experience, so you can’t really compare. However, people are people and how they interact varies as does the circumstances in which they operate. I don’t think there is a set rule on how quickly a manager should get it right or indeed how long they should be given.
Just thoughts, but given the head of steam building up against Cook (yes, yes I know he’s been poor to date) I’m running away too! |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 09:03 - Dec 4 with 1099 views | Schmoke |
| Intriguing... on 07:13 - Dec 4 by bobbyramsey |
If these players are as good as we are led to believe then should they be making all these "individual errors?" Maybe they're not as good as we think they are..... |
I was about to say. We've been here before haven't we.....
FWIW he should have the season at least IMHO. You can't break something down and build it up again only to then get nervous and sack him 6 months later.
If this continues into the new season by all means get rid. |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 09:05 - Dec 4 with 1086 views | BlueBadger |
Robson when he started here was a novice manager with just 36 games to his name an a small budget. Cook came here with getting on for 700 and a budget that wouldn't look bad for sides a division higher. [Post edited 4 Dec 2021 9:06]
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| Intriguing... on 09:07 - Dec 4 with 1077 views | BlueBadger |
| Intriguing... on 08:22 - Dec 4 by ArnieM |
That would be the same players that downed tools on Cook …. Who also needs more time . |
...with players who are downing tools at half time.... | |
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| Intriguing... on 09:13 - Dec 4 with 1052 views | Herbivore |
| Intriguing... on 09:03 - Dec 4 by Schmoke |
I was about to say. We've been here before haven't we.....
FWIW he should have the season at least IMHO. You can't break something down and build it up again only to then get nervous and sack him 6 months later.
If this continues into the new season by all means get rid. |
You'd give him into next season as well? This is all getting very Lambert. | |
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| Intriguing... on 09:22 - Dec 4 with 1018 views | BlueBadger |
| Intriguing... on 07:37 - Dec 4 by Herbivore |
I think it's all pretty meaningless. Robson was managing in the top flight on a limited budget at one of the smaller clubs at that level. Cook is managing in the third tier with one of the biggest and best resourced clubs in the league. That their records are comparable shows how poorly Cook has been doing, being bang average in the top flight was acceptable, being bang average in the third division with the squad and resources at our disposal is not. If anything your post strengthens the argument to get rid of Cook rather than to stick with him. |
Additionally, as I've said elsewhere. Robson(and Burley, who is the other 'slow build manager cited by the Cookolytes) was a novice manager with fewer than 40 games under his belt.
Cook came here with nearly 700. | |
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| Intriguing... on 09:27 - Dec 4 with 976 views | Yallop |
Really interesting stat that. Thank the lord we showed Sir Bobby some loyalty. |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 09:29 - Dec 4 with 960 views | Yallop |
| Intriguing... on 09:22 - Dec 4 by BlueBadger |
Additionally, as I've said elsewhere. Robson(and Burley, who is the other 'slow build manager cited by the Cookolytes) was a novice manager with fewer than 40 games under his belt.
Cook came here with nearly 700. |
Don't forget John Lyall who was no novice!
John Duncan was sacked for finishing 9th. Next season Lyall finished 14th. [Post edited 4 Dec 2021 9:31]
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| Intriguing... on 09:36 - Dec 4 with 925 views | Guthrum |
| Intriguing... on 08:05 - Dec 4 by RadioOrwell |
Robson made 14 transfers in his whole time here.
That alone makes the comparison weak. |
Tho that's more a symptom of the very different eras in which they were operating. Smaller squads, fewer subs, transfers being much less frequent overall. Cook never learnt to operate in those conditions. Massed squad changes are a tool he is used to, not even uncommon in the modern game. |  |
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| Intriguing... on 09:37 - Dec 4 with 927 views | BlueBadger |
| Intriguing... on 09:13 - Dec 4 by Herbivore |
You'd give him into next season as well? This is all getting very Lambert. |
I think there's a few on here who've commissioned a 'Lambo' style banner and it's taking longer than they'd thought it would and they don't want to fell like they've wasted their money. | |
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| Intriguing... on 09:45 - Dec 4 with 904 views | DropCliffsNotBombs |
| Intriguing... on 09:37 - Dec 4 by BlueBadger |
I think there's a few on here who've commissioned a 'Lambo' style banner and it's taking longer than they'd thought it would and they don't want to fell like they've wasted their money. |
Ooh, a good new one. Def recycle that daily for the next 6 months or so. |  | | |
| Intriguing... on 09:52 - Dec 4 with 894 views | Churchman |
| Intriguing... on 09:05 - Dec 4 by BlueBadger |
Robson when he started here was a novice manager with just 36 games to his name an a small budget. Cook came here with getting on for 700 and a budget that wouldn't look bad for sides a division higher. [Post edited 4 Dec 2021 9:06]
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To get the facts straight, yes the budget was one of the smaller ones, but Division One was much more financially competitive in those days. The maximum wage had ended only ten years earlier and the league operated on a shared gate receipts basis making all clubs closer financially. It’s a big factor in how Derby, Forest and Ipswich could compete as they did.
I know it won’t sit well with the people wanting to chase Cook out ASAP, but I think the OP was very much about how long you give somebody to form a team. Robson got about 10 months at Fulham and several years here. I saw Robson’s early teams (they were pretty dour, Jimmy Robertson apart) but was too young to really pick up on peoples feelings about him, over and above the well known Man U / Cobbold incident. I’d be interested to know from people who remember it what the feeling about him was.
Robson was as a manager inexperienced but two clubs clearly took different approaches with him. The same happens now, even in a completely different world. If say Carrick was appointed, how long would he get? If he went 3 months with somebody else’s team and 4 months with his own, as Cook has, would the majority of the supporters be after him as they are with Cook now?
I suspect it’d be ‘too inexperienced’’doesn’t know what he’s doing’’why did they appoint him’’how did they not learn from the Hurst debacle’’too big a job for a first appointment’. He wouldn’t attract the scrutiny Cook has and neither would he get the time Robson had. | | | |
| Intriguing... on 10:09 - Dec 4 with 861 views | BlueBadger |
| Intriguing... on 09:45 - Dec 4 by DropCliffsNotBombs |
Ooh, a good new one. Def recycle that daily for the next 6 months or so. |
It's not MY fault that all these softcocks appear to WANT mid-table football in the third division and keep backing rubbish managers. | |
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| Intriguing... on 10:35 - Dec 4 with 809 views | itfcjoe |
| Intriguing... on 09:52 - Dec 4 by Churchman |
To get the facts straight, yes the budget was one of the smaller ones, but Division One was much more financially competitive in those days. The maximum wage had ended only ten years earlier and the league operated on a shared gate receipts basis making all clubs closer financially. It’s a big factor in how Derby, Forest and Ipswich could compete as they did.
I know it won’t sit well with the people wanting to chase Cook out ASAP, but I think the OP was very much about how long you give somebody to form a team. Robson got about 10 months at Fulham and several years here. I saw Robson’s early teams (they were pretty dour, Jimmy Robertson apart) but was too young to really pick up on peoples feelings about him, over and above the well known Man U / Cobbold incident. I’d be interested to know from people who remember it what the feeling about him was.
Robson was as a manager inexperienced but two clubs clearly took different approaches with him. The same happens now, even in a completely different world. If say Carrick was appointed, how long would he get? If he went 3 months with somebody else’s team and 4 months with his own, as Cook has, would the majority of the supporters be after him as they are with Cook now?
I suspect it’d be ‘too inexperienced’’doesn’t know what he’s doing’’why did they appoint him’’how did they not learn from the Hurst debacle’’too big a job for a first appointment’. He wouldn’t attract the scrutiny Cook has and neither would he get the time Robson had. |
There is also a difference these days that clubs cannot afford to hang about, and they aren't able to retain their better players if in this tier. Vultures circle picking your best players, and also working through their replacements in the academy and progress has to be quick.
But a manager does need to prove that they know what they are doing to an extent - Robson did that when he came in 68/69 and kept the club up, and continued to keep us up - achieving what was assumed his number 1 objective when appointed.
If we don't go up this year, whilst it isn't quite rip it up and start again territory, there will likely end up being 10 out and 10 in, it's the way of the world at this level - some of those will be because they aren't good enough, and some will be because they are good - but as a club of our sie, we can't build anything long term in League 1, we have to be in the Championship at the earliest possible opportunity.
The more I see from a Paul Cook team, and the more I hear from Paul Cook, it feels that the only hope we have left of getting it right here is not what I've seen but what he has achieved elsewhere (which is very impressive - of which there is no doubt). How long can we continue to have confidence when all there is is reputation, and not what we are seeing with our eyes or hearing with our ears?
I look at the squad, and at Cook's history and think there is a way we can win a few on the bounce and get back in the mix - but over the 40 games or so he's had how likely actually is it?
At some point, sadly, it's more likely we realise we are what our record suggests over his tenure than we are what he was at his previous clubs. |  |
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