| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting 18:08 - Dec 7 with 2441 views | Vic |
and consistent with everything they’ve said before. I can’t remember his exact words but he said something like ‘It is the aim this season but not a necessity’. We do seem to have worked ourselves up into a froth that it’s promo this season or bust, when clearly for the top brass at the club it isn’t really the case. Sure, they are shifting heaven and earth to do it, which is great, but if it doesn’t happen they are not going to walk away and leave us in the lurch. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:09 - Dec 7 with 2252 views | reusersfreekicks |
err who said they were going to? |  | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:10 - Dec 7 with 2231 views | Vic |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:09 - Dec 7 by reusersfreekicks |
err who said they were going to? |
Not those words, but it’s been spoken of as though it is a necessity for some reason. | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:14 - Dec 7 with 2195 views | Mullet |
That really is a position seemingly invented by those wanting Cook to stay. At no point would the club go bust if we didn't go up, so it isn't a necessity. But it's damn sure what we should be aiming for and always has been, because every year we spend in this league damages us massively.
I thought Ashton spoke fairly well to Andy Warren, but it was still the high-gloss business speak that needed cutting through.
We're 11th and have been getting worse, he was still talking about "being in the mix" of the playoffs from here as it's clear the aim of autos is long gone. The idea this squad, with that manager shouldn't be measured against a promotion challenge is baffling. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:17 - Dec 7 with 2164 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:14 - Dec 7 by Mullet |
That really is a position seemingly invented by those wanting Cook to stay. At no point would the club go bust if we didn't go up, so it isn't a necessity. But it's damn sure what we should be aiming for and always has been, because every year we spend in this league damages us massively.
I thought Ashton spoke fairly well to Andy Warren, but it was still the high-gloss business speak that needed cutting through.
We're 11th and have been getting worse, he was still talking about "being in the mix" of the playoffs from here as it's clear the aim of autos is long gone. The idea this squad, with that manager shouldn't be measured against a promotion challenge is baffling. |
And the fact Cook is no longer here, implies that promotion is rather more important to the plan this year than is being accepted by some fans |  | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:22 - Dec 7 with 2105 views | Vic |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:14 - Dec 7 by Mullet |
That really is a position seemingly invented by those wanting Cook to stay. At no point would the club go bust if we didn't go up, so it isn't a necessity. But it's damn sure what we should be aiming for and always has been, because every year we spend in this league damages us massively.
I thought Ashton spoke fairly well to Andy Warren, but it was still the high-gloss business speak that needed cutting through.
We're 11th and have been getting worse, he was still talking about "being in the mix" of the playoffs from here as it's clear the aim of autos is long gone. The idea this squad, with that manager shouldn't be measured against a promotion challenge is baffling. |
Indeed, and I for one was never completely convinced by Cook despite defending until it was indefensible (which it seems was the boards line too!). But there has been a narrative that promotion is a necessity this year - for whatever reason. | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:24 - Dec 7 with 2073 views | Herbivore |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:10 - Dec 7 by Vic |
Not those words, but it’s been spoken of as though it is a necessity for some reason. |
I'm not sure that's quite the case, I think that's the parody position that's been put forward by those who have sought to temper expectations. Nobody has claimed anyone will walk away or we'll go bust but what we probably will see is a decent amount of squad churn in the summer again. Our transfer business doesn't reflect this season being a transitional one either, the aim has always been to push for promotion ASAP. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:30 - Dec 7 with 1990 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:24 - Dec 7 by Herbivore |
I'm not sure that's quite the case, I think that's the parody position that's been put forward by those who have sought to temper expectations. Nobody has claimed anyone will walk away or we'll go bust but what we probably will see is a decent amount of squad churn in the summer again. Our transfer business doesn't reflect this season being a transitional one either, the aim has always been to push for promotion ASAP. |
That's quite important on squad churn.
Our better players won't hang around for another L1 season and will go off to higher level.
We certainly will risk losing Edmundson, Chaplin and Morsy from those we own and we will struggle to convince Walton, Celina, Coulson and Bonne to stay from a loan perspective.
Worst case much of the spine of the team may go and we see another 10+ player turnaround in the summer. | | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:02 - Dec 7 with 1844 views | Vic |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:24 - Dec 7 by Herbivore |
I'm not sure that's quite the case, I think that's the parody position that's been put forward by those who have sought to temper expectations. Nobody has claimed anyone will walk away or we'll go bust but what we probably will see is a decent amount of squad churn in the summer again. Our transfer business doesn't reflect this season being a transitional one either, the aim has always been to push for promotion ASAP. |
Yes, and Ashton rightly said it’s the ‘aim’ (we’d be in a right old mess if it wasn’t the aim wouldn’t we!) - but then he qualified that. Someone can remind us of what he said. And certainly anything less will be a failure. But, the narrative on here has been that failure would be unacceptable; my point is that the owners clearly have a contingency for not getting promoted this season - it doesn’t seem to be quite as black and white, live or die as suggested by some on here. That’s all. | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:05 - Dec 7 with 1814 views | Herbivore |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:02 - Dec 7 by Vic |
Yes, and Ashton rightly said it’s the ‘aim’ (we’d be in a right old mess if it wasn’t the aim wouldn’t we!) - but then he qualified that. Someone can remind us of what he said. And certainly anything less will be a failure. But, the narrative on here has been that failure would be unacceptable; my point is that the owners clearly have a contingency for not getting promoted this season - it doesn’t seem to be quite as black and white, live or die as suggested by some on here. That’s all. |
Well clearly Ashton and the board do see it as an unacceptable failure, given they've sacked Cook for taking us to a position where promotion looks unlikely. And Ashton said the board acted now whilst promotion is still possible at least, which seems to further back up that promotion was the target and Cook's failure to get us competing for it has seen him lose his job. [Post edited 7 Dec 2021 19:12]
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:07 - Dec 7 with 1798 views | ArnieM |
I’ve reiterated MA’s sentiments all season long . The fans create their own perfect storm by insisting that promotion HAS to happen this season. Great if it does but is it really a big deal if we don’t? It’s about the long term goals and rebuilding isn’t it . |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:08 - Dec 7 with 1785 views | Kieran_Knows |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:30 - Dec 7 by ElderGrizzly |
That's quite important on squad churn.
Our better players won't hang around for another L1 season and will go off to higher level.
We certainly will risk losing Edmundson, Chaplin and Morsy from those we own and we will struggle to convince Walton, Celina, Coulson and Bonne to stay from a loan perspective.
Worst case much of the spine of the team may go and we see another 10+ player turnaround in the summer. |
Our better players won't hang around for another L1 season and will go off to higher level.
Really? If they haven’t got us out of this division, who’s going to come knocking for them? The only one at the minute is Edmundson, and even then he’ll have 3 years left so we won’t lose him cheaply. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:13 - Dec 7 with 1734 views | Vic |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:05 - Dec 7 by Herbivore |
Well clearly Ashton and the board do see it as an unacceptable failure, given they've sacked Cook for taking us to a position where promotion looks unlikely. And Ashton said the board acted now whilst promotion is still possible at least, which seems to further back up that promotion was the target and Cook's failure to get us competing for it has seen him lose his job. [Post edited 7 Dec 2021 19:12]
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Not quite sure what we’re differing on! Absolutely it was/is our target, no one should kid themselves about that. They have thrown a lot at achieving it. But everything doesn’t go belly up if it doesn’t happen, which comments like EG’s seem to suggest. I’m sure they are aware of that possibility, which is why they want to do everything they can to get up this season. But I just think that if for whatever reason it doesn’t they’ll dust themselves down and push for it with redoubled effort next season. | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:19 - Dec 7 with 1685 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
I think the whole point of the comment is that we should be there or there abouts this season but if we just miss out it is not a disaster by any means and definitely would not have been a certain sacking. However, to be so far off the pace that we are on the verge of ruling out any possibility of promotion with half the season left then that is not just missing out at all.
The remit for the new manager will be to show remarkable improvement and not promotion or bust this season at all. If we finish the season in 11th or lower, the new manager will already be on borrowed time in August. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:25 - Dec 7 with 1624 views | FightingEssex |
I don't know about that, as if promotion wasn't the immediate, Cook could have stayed and we'd have probably finished a respectable 7th and not gone up. I just think Ashton isn't going to make a rod for the new managers back before he's through the door by saying promotion is a must to the wider fanbase. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:33 - Dec 7 with 1569 views | TheBoyBlue |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:07 - Dec 7 by ArnieM |
I’ve reiterated MA’s sentiments all season long . The fans create their own perfect storm by insisting that promotion HAS to happen this season. Great if it does but is it really a big deal if we don’t? It’s about the long term goals and rebuilding isn’t it . |
Well, we will have waited 22 years for a promotion by May, so what's the rush? |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:34 - Dec 7 with 1565 views | Herbivore |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:13 - Dec 7 by Vic |
Not quite sure what we’re differing on! Absolutely it was/is our target, no one should kid themselves about that. They have thrown a lot at achieving it. But everything doesn’t go belly up if it doesn’t happen, which comments like EG’s seem to suggest. I’m sure they are aware of that possibility, which is why they want to do everything they can to get up this season. But I just think that if for whatever reason it doesn’t they’ll dust themselves down and push for it with redoubled effort next season. |
Not sure EG is saying things will go belly up but it's a much tougher job to build at this level than it is in the leagues above and so there's a good chance we'll see a fair bit of squad turnover again if we don't go up. It won't be on the scale of last summer but it'll be significant. Remember, we could afford this season's wages because we got a nice £3m or so in additional turnover from player sales. We'll need to match that again to sustain this level of wage spending. There's also 5 loanees to return, a few players who are in the last year of their contract. Conceivably you're looking at changing half the squad. It's not a disaster but it's not ideal for a long term project either. | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:36 - Dec 7 with 1550 views | Churchman |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:07 - Dec 7 by ArnieM |
I’ve reiterated MA’s sentiments all season long . The fans create their own perfect storm by insisting that promotion HAS to happen this season. Great if it does but is it really a big deal if we don’t? It’s about the long term goals and rebuilding isn’t it . |
It certainly should be about long term goals. |  | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:50 - Dec 7 with 1490 views | Churchman |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 18:30 - Dec 7 by ElderGrizzly |
That's quite important on squad churn.
Our better players won't hang around for another L1 season and will go off to higher level.
We certainly will risk losing Edmundson, Chaplin and Morsy from those we own and we will struggle to convince Walton, Celina, Coulson and Bonne to stay from a loan perspective.
Worst case much of the spine of the team may go and we see another 10+ player turnaround in the summer. |
If the so called better players think it’s everybody else’s fault and nothing to do with them so want away, get rid. If that’s their view, maybe they’re part of the problem. Cook was fired. Yes, he deserved it, but ultimately the players were the ones that got him fired.
Anyone wanting to go would be on the transfer list in a heartbeat for me. If the club is ever to recover it will do so with people that want and are happy to be here, not individuals that are unhappy to step down but ‘give it a go’ for the season. That just says they think they’re bigger than the club and most important, bigger than their team mates.
If we have a total rebuild, so be it. The current mob are wallowing in the middle of L1, easy meat for any organised, proper team. The first half of the season is evidence enough. I’ll reiterate, Cook is accountable and paid the price. The players need to take a good look at themselves. They either want to do their best here or basically s&d off. | | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 20:17 - Dec 7 with 1405 views | Vic |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:34 - Dec 7 by Herbivore |
Not sure EG is saying things will go belly up but it's a much tougher job to build at this level than it is in the leagues above and so there's a good chance we'll see a fair bit of squad turnover again if we don't go up. It won't be on the scale of last summer but it'll be significant. Remember, we could afford this season's wages because we got a nice £3m or so in additional turnover from player sales. We'll need to match that again to sustain this level of wage spending. There's also 5 loanees to return, a few players who are in the last year of their contract. Conceivably you're looking at changing half the squad. It's not a disaster but it's not ideal for a long term project either. |
I reckon we’d pretty near recoup £3m for our best Ng is, they are under contract and someone has to want to buy them. If they fail this season who will do that?
And 5x 7 new players in this league wouldn’t be unusual | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 20:20 - Dec 7 with 1367 views | stonojnr |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 19:13 - Dec 7 by Vic |
Not quite sure what we’re differing on! Absolutely it was/is our target, no one should kid themselves about that. They have thrown a lot at achieving it. But everything doesn’t go belly up if it doesn’t happen, which comments like EG’s seem to suggest. I’m sure they are aware of that possibility, which is why they want to do everything they can to get up this season. But I just think that if for whatever reason it doesn’t they’ll dust themselves down and push for it with redoubled effort next season. |
I think people are analysing this too much, its fairly obvious that we as a club want promotion as quickly as possible out of this league as it does impact on the finances, it does put off sponsors, players and possible future investors. We didnt need to be promoted this season, but we did need to be challenging for promotion to demonstrate we were making some progress.
if Cook had kept the team bubbling around the playoff zone, he'd still have a job, if we had ultimately just missed out in 7th, or failed in the playoff games, he'd still be in a job next season.
sitting mid table, showing little sign of progressing apart from beating teams in the bottom 3 and with no obvious plan of a way out, other than keep doing the same things and hope it just clicks eventually, thats why Cook isnt the manager anymore. | | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 10:28 - Dec 8 with 1092 views | FBI |
I've struggled to figure out what the plan was this year. As a business model the Chequebook FC/HMS P!ssTheLeague thing wouldn't really hold up: it's a castle built on sand but could possibly have worked in the short term, as with Blackburn all those years ago. However, if we're really looking to consolidate and go up with a secure structure built on solid, sustainable foundations - unlike Blackburn and which I imagine is what most serious businessmen would look for - then promotion this year surely has to be a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. You can't realistically change the entire structure of a club in a year and expect smooth sailing: there are going to be teething pains and mistakes, including some inexplicably unsuccessful signings on and off the pitch.
I'll admit to buying into the hype, especially after seeing the way Phoenix Rising have grown and grown under the owners, but we all do that, don't we? It's entirely natural because we want ITFC to be back where we were far too long ago. I'm of the Robson generation rather than Burley and where we are now really hurts, but if it means sucking up another season of L1 in order to be in the PL in, say, 5 years, then I'm prepared to hold my nose for now and live with it. I don't have to like it but the options are limited.
On a bad day, I think the new owners have funked up badly and have to start again.
On a good day (to use a tortured analogy) I see us as a bow and arrow, currently being drawn back in order to fly and do some serious damage next season.
Gah. Football, eh? |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 10:39 - Dec 8 with 1018 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 10:28 - Dec 8 by FBI |
I've struggled to figure out what the plan was this year. As a business model the Chequebook FC/HMS P!ssTheLeague thing wouldn't really hold up: it's a castle built on sand but could possibly have worked in the short term, as with Blackburn all those years ago. However, if we're really looking to consolidate and go up with a secure structure built on solid, sustainable foundations - unlike Blackburn and which I imagine is what most serious businessmen would look for - then promotion this year surely has to be a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. You can't realistically change the entire structure of a club in a year and expect smooth sailing: there are going to be teething pains and mistakes, including some inexplicably unsuccessful signings on and off the pitch.
I'll admit to buying into the hype, especially after seeing the way Phoenix Rising have grown and grown under the owners, but we all do that, don't we? It's entirely natural because we want ITFC to be back where we were far too long ago. I'm of the Robson generation rather than Burley and where we are now really hurts, but if it means sucking up another season of L1 in order to be in the PL in, say, 5 years, then I'm prepared to hold my nose for now and live with it. I don't have to like it but the options are limited.
On a bad day, I think the new owners have funked up badly and have to start again.
On a good day (to use a tortured analogy) I see us as a bow and arrow, currently being drawn back in order to fly and do some serious damage next season.
Gah. Football, eh? |
I'm not sure the cheque book model even holds up to scrutiny. Net transfer fees weren't massive. We don't know wages, but a lot of senior players were shipped out to make room on the books. It feels as if we're spending more than most other teams in the league, but then we were under Evans in L1 I think. So I'm not convinced they've suddenly tried to buy their way out of the league (we'll need to see the accounts to know for sure obvs).
Good post though. It's easy to believe the hype. I wonder if they'll be surprised as I am at how quickly the mood has changed and that hype has disappeared. |  |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 10:46 - Dec 8 with 984 views | FBI |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 10:39 - Dec 8 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm not sure the cheque book model even holds up to scrutiny. Net transfer fees weren't massive. We don't know wages, but a lot of senior players were shipped out to make room on the books. It feels as if we're spending more than most other teams in the league, but then we were under Evans in L1 I think. So I'm not convinced they've suddenly tried to buy their way out of the league (we'll need to see the accounts to know for sure obvs).
Good post though. It's easy to believe the hype. I wonder if they'll be surprised as I am at how quickly the mood has changed and that hype has disappeared. |
Cheers.
Re Chequebook FC you're right on the playing side. I was thinking of the off-field spending too, though, and wonder if some of that has been distracting.
I had another thought about the backroom/owners: Phoenix, Helsingor etc don't have a 'history' as we do. Ashton and O'Leary come from clubs that don't have our history either (well, unless you count Albion in the 50s-60s) and it's one thing to look at the history books and pay tribute to what we once had. It's quite another to have it ingrained as part of a folk memory or even, like me and many others, actually remember being part of it. That DNA isn't something they'll have encountered before and maybe they weren't prepared for it to flare up so quickly. Just a random thought, really. | |
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| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 11:06 - Dec 8 with 918 views | markchips |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 10:39 - Dec 8 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm not sure the cheque book model even holds up to scrutiny. Net transfer fees weren't massive. We don't know wages, but a lot of senior players were shipped out to make room on the books. It feels as if we're spending more than most other teams in the league, but then we were under Evans in L1 I think. So I'm not convinced they've suddenly tried to buy their way out of the league (we'll need to see the accounts to know for sure obvs).
Good post though. It's easy to believe the hype. I wonder if they'll be surprised as I am at how quickly the mood has changed and that hype has disappeared. |
I think a fair point made that with transfer fees in, the net spend is likely lower than perceived. Only seeing the accounts will prove this.
I think we need more tougher players that understand the lower leagues. Edwards for example has done very little by way of no goals and no assists. You simply cannot carry a luxury player with no end result. Wycombe seem to be doing very well although their style of play does not appeal.
It is all very depressing watch another season disappear but we were probably all guilty of expecting a magic wand to be waved and at least the play offs in sight. The grim reality is, it may take years to compete again and I would prefer us to integrate the likes of Simpson , Ndaba and Dobra who are our own players , along with Clements and El Mizouni. They really cannot do much worse than the likes of Evans and Harper who has been awful and what is the point of Carroll and Aluko to add experience if you donot play them. Fraser , Pigott and Burgess are proven at this level so play them. I suspect Nsiala is done after his reaction last night .Walton and Edmundsen stand up and Bonne worth a chance. | | | |
| Ashtons comment about promotion was interesting on 11:24 - Dec 8 with 864 views | mrshallisfit |
I think Ashton has to downgrade the inspirational talk to any new transfer window signing. Instead of running towards adversity how about "shuffling towards mild threat?" | | | |
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