| F1 showdown thread 11:38 - Dec 12 with 16780 views | bluelagos |
In case anyone is unaware, is live on C4 today, coverage starts at 12, race at 1pm.
Winner takes all. We are watching history, have no doubt this season will be made into a film in time, much as the great "Rush" and "Senna" were.
I'll be shouting for Max. Much as I love Hamilton and his amazing career, the talent of Verstappen is undeniable.
Time for the new pretender or for the old guard to get the all time record for F1 championships? |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:03 - Dec 12 with 1354 views | gordon |
| F1 showdown thread on 15:59 - Dec 12 by pointofblue |
The other issue is the majority of people will have switched off straight after the race and won't really follow Formula One properly until March. It will be difficult for them to see Max win on the track then Lewis given the Championship a few hours later. |
Don't really see how they could give the title to anyone, given that it was the race director that effectively spoiled the sporting integrity of the contest, and Verstappen didn't really do anything wrong. If they had decided not to let any lapped cars pass (which I think was an option - but maybe this isn't an option under the rules, not sure?), then Verstappen still in theory had a small chance to go past them all and past Hamilton to win the race. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:06]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:04 - Dec 12 with 1337 views | belgablue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:00 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Break what rules?
You can’t seriously think Verstappen gained an advantage from ‘overtaking’ Hamilton by a millimetre under the safety car and then immediately dropping back? |
I don’t think that appeal will be successful as place was given back - but the lapped cars is a real problem for them to justify. They essentially massaged the rules to such an extent that they decided the championship with one lap to go. Also the cars that weren’t allowed to unlap, was their race against the cars that were allowed to unlap not important? |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:04 - Dec 12 with 1341 views | Kievthegreat |
Lost amongst everything else going on, but George Russell wasn't impressed.
Obviously Lewis's wingman next year, but interesting to see a current driver being quite so 'undiplomatic'. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:05 - Dec 12 with 1326 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:03 - Dec 12 by gordon |
Don't really see how they could give the title to anyone, given that it was the race director that effectively spoiled the sporting integrity of the contest, and Verstappen didn't really do anything wrong. If they had decided not to let any lapped cars pass (which I think was an option - but maybe this isn't an option under the rules, not sure?), then Verstappen still in theory had a small chance to go past them all and past Hamilton to win the race. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:06]
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Max wouldn't have had a chance because they are supposed to wait one lap for the safety car to go in before starting racing again after they unlap themselves and that didn't happen because the race would have ended under the safety car (which is what happened in Spa and gave Max a previous win in the rain).
Mercedes are clearly right here which is the awful thing because it makes it even more of a farce.
As you say, Max didn't do anything wrong.
Horner though, he can be blamed for being on the radio to Masi and pressuring him to ignore the rules (as he admitted to in an interview).
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:06]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:05 - Dec 12 with 1318 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 15:59 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
Let's not forget Max won the race behind the safety car in the wet in Hungary (I believe) which involved no racing and gave him the lead into this race.
Red Bull weren't complaining about safety car rules then, today they were screaming at Masi on the radio to ignore the rules (by Horner's own admission in the interview).
That isn't the protest from Mercedes. They are:
- all cars need to be lapped and then the safety car needs to come in one lap later (neither happened).
- no overtaking until the safety car is in the pits by anyone (didn't happen).
The result should be declared the one behind the safety car given the rules but that would be awful as well.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:00]
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It was Spa that Verstappen won behind the safety car, not Hungary. Red Bull certainly were complaining in Hungary as Verstappen’s car was damaged as a result of Bottas going bowling!
Tbh the what the teams argue isn’t of interest, they’re as bad as each other (although understandable given they’re looking out for their own interests)
Not sure what you’re saying isn’t the protest from Mercedes? My comments were about the overtaking protest - I’m guessing it technically did happen briefly when Verstappen was pulling alongside Hamilton on the safety car in lap but clearly no advantage so it’s a ridiculous protest
The other one is clearly valid and warranted but what’s been ruled has been ruled, changing the result now via protest will leave an even sourer taste |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:06 - Dec 12 with 1313 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:05 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
It was Spa that Verstappen won behind the safety car, not Hungary. Red Bull certainly were complaining in Hungary as Verstappen’s car was damaged as a result of Bottas going bowling!
Tbh the what the teams argue isn’t of interest, they’re as bad as each other (although understandable given they’re looking out for their own interests)
Not sure what you’re saying isn’t the protest from Mercedes? My comments were about the overtaking protest - I’m guessing it technically did happen briefly when Verstappen was pulling alongside Hamilton on the safety car in lap but clearly no advantage so it’s a ridiculous protest
The other one is clearly valid and warranted but what’s been ruled has been ruled, changing the result now via protest will leave an even sourer taste |
Did you see the rule, Healy? |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:07 - Dec 12 with 1301 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:00 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
I don't believe that is the protest (see above).
SB |
You believe wrongly then, as one of the protests is that Verstappen overtook Hamilton under the safety car. Well that’s certainly what is being reported | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:08 - Dec 12 with 1295 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:05 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
It was Spa that Verstappen won behind the safety car, not Hungary. Red Bull certainly were complaining in Hungary as Verstappen’s car was damaged as a result of Bottas going bowling!
Tbh the what the teams argue isn’t of interest, they’re as bad as each other (although understandable given they’re looking out for their own interests)
Not sure what you’re saying isn’t the protest from Mercedes? My comments were about the overtaking protest - I’m guessing it technically did happen briefly when Verstappen was pulling alongside Hamilton on the safety car in lap but clearly no advantage so it’s a ridiculous protest
The other one is clearly valid and warranted but what’s been ruled has been ruled, changing the result now via protest will leave an even sourer taste |
"Not sure what you’re saying isn’t the protest from Mercedes? My comments were about the overtaking protest - I’m guessing it technically did happen briefly when Verstappen was pulling alongside Hamilton on the safety car in lap but clearly no advantage so it’s a ridiculous protest"
So my understanding was you thought it was because Max edged just past him, then back behind then they started racing.
I don't believe this is it. It's that there is no overtaking by anyone whilst the safety car isn't in the pits and it wasn't at that stage I believe because it would have been the end of the race if they waited for it to get back?
Given this rule he clearly did overtake him whilst the safety car was out (assuming it was which I believe was the case - you can see it I think).
It's a total mess. They should stop teams communicating directly with the race director because they apply pressure and then rubbish like this happens.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:09]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:09 - Dec 12 with 1288 views | Kievthegreat |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:00 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
I don't believe that is the protest (see above).
SB |
Mercedes are appealing against Verstappen for overtaking behind the safety car. That is happening. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:09 - Dec 12 with 1287 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:08 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
"Not sure what you’re saying isn’t the protest from Mercedes? My comments were about the overtaking protest - I’m guessing it technically did happen briefly when Verstappen was pulling alongside Hamilton on the safety car in lap but clearly no advantage so it’s a ridiculous protest"
So my understanding was you thought it was because Max edged just past him, then back behind then they started racing.
I don't believe this is it. It's that there is no overtaking by anyone whilst the safety car isn't in the pits and it wasn't at that stage I believe because it would have been the end of the race if they waited for it to get back?
Given this rule he clearly did overtake him whilst the safety car was out (assuming it was which I believe was the case - you can see it I think).
It's a total mess. They should stop teams communicating directly with the race director because they apply pressure and then rubbish like this happens.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:09]
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They have also protested about the rule I quoted being ignored, will quote it again for you.
48.12 of the sporting regs:
Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.
So it should have been a safety car finish. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:11]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:10 - Dec 12 with 1274 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:09 - Dec 12 by Kievthegreat |
Mercedes are appealing against Verstappen for overtaking behind the safety car. That is happening. |
Agreed but I thought in a different context to what was being posted.
Happy to be corrected.
SB | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:11 - Dec 12 with 1267 views | gordon |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:09 - Dec 12 by Kievthegreat |
Mercedes are appealing against Verstappen for overtaking behind the safety car. That is happening. |
Surely the protest is about overtaking before the safety car was back in the pits, rather than overtaking behind the safety car? | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:12 - Dec 12 with 1253 views | Skip_Intro |
| F1 showdown thread on 15:56 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The overtaking protest is nonsense, Max pulled alongside a couple of times as Lewis was backing everything up but even if he did creep slightly ahead it was given back immediately. Technically it shouldn’t happen but it’s a ridiculous protest from Mercedes
Obviously the other one re the rules not being applied is far more warranted, and they are right to challenge it. But I do agree with Stokie above that anything now changing the result will be even more unsatisfactory [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 15:57]
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ignore - posted in error... [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:13]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:12 - Dec 12 with 1251 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:09 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
They have also protested about the rule I quoted being ignored, will quote it again for you.
48.12 of the sporting regs:
Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.
So it should have been a safety car finish. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:11]
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I referenced this a number of times already in the thread, it wasn't ignored.
They are clearly right as well but not sure what they can to do Max. They can change the result to a safety car finish but imagine the scenes.
SB | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:14 - Dec 12 with 1237 views | Kievthegreat |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:11 - Dec 12 by gordon |
Surely the protest is about overtaking before the safety car was back in the pits, rather than overtaking behind the safety car? |
There is a designated line on track, somewhere near the last corner were the race will restart from. There was a second when Hamilton was going super slowly that Verstappen looked to maybe poke ahead, but then immediately drops back. Not sure it'll go anywhere though. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:15 - Dec 12 with 1230 views | Kievthegreat |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:12 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
I referenced this a number of times already in the thread, it wasn't ignored.
They are clearly right as well but not sure what they can to do Max. They can change the result to a safety car finish but imagine the scenes.
SB |
Episode 11 of drive to survive can be a courtroom drama! | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:16 - Dec 12 with 1226 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:12 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
I referenced this a number of times already in the thread, it wasn't ignored.
They are clearly right as well but not sure what they can to do Max. They can change the result to a safety car finish but imagine the scenes.
SB |
Healys response to my post about rule breaking, sounded like he thought I was talking about the “supposed Overtake”, was just making it clear which rule i was referring to. | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:17 - Dec 12 with 1217 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:06 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
Did you see the rule, Healy? |
Huh, which rule?
If you’re talking about overtaking behind the safety car then technically the rules may have been broken, but small infringements occur all the time and there wasn’t any advantage gained. Effectively the punishment would be giving the place back which he did. If the FIA suddenly gave Max a 5 second penalty for that now it would be an even more laughable outcome than it is now
If you’re referring to the rules about restarting under a safety car then yes, the rules weren’t followed - no one is suggesting otherwise. But that wasn’t a team ignoring the rules it was a decision by Michael Masi, so I don’t see how your comment that teams will know they can just break the rules applies here? I think, although not certain, there are also some provisions in the rules that allow the race director to take adhoc decisions anyway, so arguably the decision may wind up technically being within the rules even if it is still a terrible one | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:19 - Dec 12 with 1199 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:16 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
Healys response to my post about rule breaking, sounded like he thought I was talking about the “supposed Overtake”, was just making it clear which rule i was referring to. |
You comment makes no sense then as no teams broke the rules there, so no wonder I was confused | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:20 - Dec 12 with 1181 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:17 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Huh, which rule?
If you’re talking about overtaking behind the safety car then technically the rules may have been broken, but small infringements occur all the time and there wasn’t any advantage gained. Effectively the punishment would be giving the place back which he did. If the FIA suddenly gave Max a 5 second penalty for that now it would be an even more laughable outcome than it is now
If you’re referring to the rules about restarting under a safety car then yes, the rules weren’t followed - no one is suggesting otherwise. But that wasn’t a team ignoring the rules it was a decision by Michael Masi, so I don’t see how your comment that teams will know they can just break the rules applies here? I think, although not certain, there are also some provisions in the rules that allow the race director to take adhoc decisions anyway, so arguably the decision may wind up technically being within the rules even if it is still a terrible one |
"If you’re talking about overtaking behind the safety car then technically the rules may have been broken, but small infringements occur all the time and there wasn’t any advantage gained. Effectively the punishment would be giving the place back which he did. If the FIA suddenly gave Max a 5 second penalty for that now it would be an even more laughable outcome than it is now"
I think the point is the safety car was still on track when the actual proper overtake happened which counts as overtaking under the safety car.
I could be wrong though.
SB | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:20 - Dec 12 with 1180 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:17 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Huh, which rule?
If you’re talking about overtaking behind the safety car then technically the rules may have been broken, but small infringements occur all the time and there wasn’t any advantage gained. Effectively the punishment would be giving the place back which he did. If the FIA suddenly gave Max a 5 second penalty for that now it would be an even more laughable outcome than it is now
If you’re referring to the rules about restarting under a safety car then yes, the rules weren’t followed - no one is suggesting otherwise. But that wasn’t a team ignoring the rules it was a decision by Michael Masi, so I don’t see how your comment that teams will know they can just break the rules applies here? I think, although not certain, there are also some provisions in the rules that allow the race director to take adhoc decisions anyway, so arguably the decision may wind up technically being within the rules even if it is still a terrible one |
They broke a rule which affected the outcome of a championship. If they are happy to break the rules in that situation, then you may as well not have any!!!! [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:20]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:24 - Dec 12 with 1148 views | gordon |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:20 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
"If you’re talking about overtaking behind the safety car then technically the rules may have been broken, but small infringements occur all the time and there wasn’t any advantage gained. Effectively the punishment would be giving the place back which he did. If the FIA suddenly gave Max a 5 second penalty for that now it would be an even more laughable outcome than it is now"
I think the point is the safety car was still on track when the actual proper overtake happened which counts as overtaking under the safety car.
I could be wrong though.
SB |
Think that what happens now is that the team principals from Red Bull and Mercedes go and sit in a room with the FIA and shout at they all shout at each other, and that's basically how it's decided. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:24 - Dec 12 with 1149 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:08 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
"Not sure what you’re saying isn’t the protest from Mercedes? My comments were about the overtaking protest - I’m guessing it technically did happen briefly when Verstappen was pulling alongside Hamilton on the safety car in lap but clearly no advantage so it’s a ridiculous protest"
So my understanding was you thought it was because Max edged just past him, then back behind then they started racing.
I don't believe this is it. It's that there is no overtaking by anyone whilst the safety car isn't in the pits and it wasn't at that stage I believe because it would have been the end of the race if they waited for it to get back?
Given this rule he clearly did overtake him whilst the safety car was out (assuming it was which I believe was the case - you can see it I think).
It's a total mess. They should stop teams communicating directly with the race director because they apply pressure and then rubbish like this happens.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:09]
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No, it’s for Verstappen edging ahead whilst still behind the safety car
The overtake on lap 58 was fine as racing had resumed
Agree re the lobbying point, there do have to be lines of communication and an element of lobbying (eg. asking the stewards to look at something) but certainly some of the conversations have been way past that and should be stopped | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:26 - Dec 12 with 1129 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:20 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
They broke a rule which affected the outcome of a championship. If they are happy to break the rules in that situation, then you may as well not have any!!!! [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:20]
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Who broke a rule which decided the outcome of the Championship?
Michael Masi didn’t apply the rules correctly, or chose to ignore them (as per my post I think there is technically some latitude to do that), but that’s not the fault of either team | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:26 - Dec 12 with 1125 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:24 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No, it’s for Verstappen edging ahead whilst still behind the safety car
The overtake on lap 58 was fine as racing had resumed
Agree re the lobbying point, there do have to be lines of communication and an element of lobbying (eg. asking the stewards to look at something) but certainly some of the conversations have been way past that and should be stopped |
But racing shouldn't have resumed because the safety car wasn't in the pits - I thought that was the point but stand corrected it seems.
Seems the journalists think it might be overturned, clearly this is a massive mess. Max did nothing wrong but neither did Lewis.
SB | |
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