| F1 showdown thread 11:38 - Dec 12 with 16791 views | bluelagos |
In case anyone is unaware, is live on C4 today, coverage starts at 12, race at 1pm.
Winner takes all. We are watching history, have no doubt this season will be made into a film in time, much as the great "Rush" and "Senna" were.
I'll be shouting for Max. Much as I love Hamilton and his amazing career, the talent of Verstappen is undeniable.
Time for the new pretender or for the old guard to get the all time record for F1 championships? |  |
| |  |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:43 - Dec 12 with 955 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:41 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
How was that ending brilliant?
It was manufactured nonsense which has never happened before and will never happen again.
SB |
Imagine if Ipswich lost a cup final due to penalty being given for a foul 10 yards out of the box, just because the ref wanted to make things interesting!! |  |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:44 - Dec 12 with 944 views | Trequartista |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:41 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
How was that ending brilliant?
It was manufactured nonsense which has never happened before and will never happen again.
SB |
Brilliant drama. I only support sports teams, i don't really get supporting individuals, so i'm totally neutral, and we all loved the drama. If it was manufactured then they wouldn't have let Hamilton cut the corner on Lap 1, it was a human being (Masi) cracking under intense pressure. |  |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:48 - Dec 12 with 905 views | bluelagos |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:44 - Dec 12 by Trequartista |
Brilliant drama. I only support sports teams, i don't really get supporting individuals, so i'm totally neutral, and we all loved the drama. If it was manufactured then they wouldn't have let Hamilton cut the corner on Lap 1, it was a human being (Masi) cracking under intense pressure. |
Indeed.
Strong case for reforming how the teams communicated / pressuring him mid race. But people suggesting he somehow wanted one team to win is utter nonsense, especially given how he allowed LH to run off track and gain an advantage after MV had legitimately overtaken him on the first lap. | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:48 - Dec 12 with 895 views | TractorFrog |
Okay, here's my conclusion about today's events.
My initial reaction was that it was totally farcical, artificial entertainment and that Hamilton had been absolutely robbed. And I stand by that; only letting the lapped cars through that were between Hamilton and Verstappen was totally unfair. Yes, their battle is the most important, but it shouldn't be seen that way by the stewards, so that was artificially created entertainment on the final lap, and I do not like that in Formula 1.
However, while the decision by the stewards showed their intentions, if they had let all the lapped cars through the outcome would have been the same, so I think we can really just put it down to awful, awful luck for Mercedes. With the situation as it was, Hamilton was leading from Verstappen, who was always going to do the opposite in regards to a pitstop. Mercedes chose to stay out, which ultimately was the wrong decision, and it cost them the championship, but if they had pitted Hamilton and the race had not been restarted, they would have looked absolutely ridiculous. Essentially, Mercedes had to choose their strategy based, not only on how quickly Latifi's car could be recovered, but how much Masi was willing to have a race on the final lap. The first part is mainly down to luck, but at least it is not entirely, but in terms of the second part, there was nothing they could have done to pre-empt that. So I don't think Mercedes made a mistake in not pitting, I think they were just extremely unlucky. Red Bull won this race by being the team behind with nothing to lose, and I don't like that as a championship conclusion. So, in summary, Max Verstappen won that championship through pot luck, although, admittedly, Hamilton could have defended better on the restart. However, over the entire season, he and Red Bull have had far more bad luck, so I am okay with Verstappen as the Drivers' Champion. But if we only consider today, Mercedes and Hamilton deserved the championship and were robbed through no fault of their own.
I think it was an extremely fitting end to the season. Tremendous excitement, but highly controversial. In the end the championship was decided on a lottery. Incredible excitement, but too NASCAR. |  |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:49 - Dec 12 with 883 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:31 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
You will upset young Healy with comments like this. Just warning you!! |
Why would I be upset? I just found it funny that you seemed convinced the result would be overturned, then said you wouldn’t lose any sleep if it wasn’t only to then say you’ll never watch again after it was confirmed the result stands |  |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:51 - Dec 12 with 871 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:36 - Dec 12 by Trequartista |
I think that translates as 'the ref made a mistake, but any corrective action cannot include removing the last lap' so no scenario where Hamilton can be handed the race. |
Yep, this | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:51 - Dec 12 with 867 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:43 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
Imagine if Ipswich lost a cup final due to penalty being given for a foul 10 yards out of the box, just because the ref wanted to make things interesting!! |
Imagine if Ipswich won a cup final, but then the result was overturned because the ref made a mistake | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| F1 showdown thread on 19:53 - Dec 12 with 853 views | bluelagos |
A 10 pager and I didn't even post anything remotely controversial :-) | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:55 - Dec 12 with 843 views | WicklowBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:14 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
Don't think this will be the end of it.
The worry is there will now be plenty who won't watch next season and why should Mercedes spend 150m a year if the rules are random?
SB |
Agree Mercedes have lodged an appeal but at this point in the interests of the sport maybe graceful accept the decision? The Race Director ff'd up but not sure anyone can categorically state Hamilton would win by default, too many variables, mechanical failure/puncture etc.
Totally disagree re. viewing figures next season, on the contrary millions more wi be tuning in to watch the rivalry and for their drive to prove they're the best. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:55 - Dec 12 with 842 views | Zapers |
| F1 showdown thread on 12:28 - Dec 12 by Basuco |
I think Lewis will win it, Max is the quicker driver but Lewis has the superior car, I really want Max to win today as the Mercedes 7 year monopoly on both driver and constructors championships is getting boring, nobody else has had a look in during the turbo/hybrid era as they have an ICE power advantage. |
interesting, but why are you so confident Max is the faster driver?
It's impossible to determine. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:56 - Dec 12 with 840 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:44 - Dec 12 by Trequartista |
Brilliant drama. I only support sports teams, i don't really get supporting individuals, so i'm totally neutral, and we all loved the drama. If it was manufactured then they wouldn't have let Hamilton cut the corner on Lap 1, it was a human being (Masi) cracking under intense pressure. |
Lap 1 is irrelevant to what happened at the end, it was also determined he was pushed off the track by Max (again).
What happened at the end was entirely manufactured as it's never happened before and the race director did it to have a lap of racing that was never going to be racing given the tyres.
The two are in no way comparable.
If he cracked under pressure why are the FIA standing by the decision? It's just like VAR, it could be changed in the same way a bad ref decision is changed.
SB |  |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:57 - Dec 12 with 832 views | Ryorry |
One thing that struck me - I don't know who the third on the podium was, but if the ending was engineered to allowing some lapped cars through and others not, isn't that rather unfair also on other drivers & constructors' teams who'd been 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th in the points standing, given how those outcomes also affect prestige & financials in the real world? 🤔 |  |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:57 - Dec 12 with 827 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:48 - Dec 12 by TractorFrog |
Okay, here's my conclusion about today's events.
My initial reaction was that it was totally farcical, artificial entertainment and that Hamilton had been absolutely robbed. And I stand by that; only letting the lapped cars through that were between Hamilton and Verstappen was totally unfair. Yes, their battle is the most important, but it shouldn't be seen that way by the stewards, so that was artificially created entertainment on the final lap, and I do not like that in Formula 1.
However, while the decision by the stewards showed their intentions, if they had let all the lapped cars through the outcome would have been the same, so I think we can really just put it down to awful, awful luck for Mercedes. With the situation as it was, Hamilton was leading from Verstappen, who was always going to do the opposite in regards to a pitstop. Mercedes chose to stay out, which ultimately was the wrong decision, and it cost them the championship, but if they had pitted Hamilton and the race had not been restarted, they would have looked absolutely ridiculous. Essentially, Mercedes had to choose their strategy based, not only on how quickly Latifi's car could be recovered, but how much Masi was willing to have a race on the final lap. The first part is mainly down to luck, but at least it is not entirely, but in terms of the second part, there was nothing they could have done to pre-empt that. So I don't think Mercedes made a mistake in not pitting, I think they were just extremely unlucky. Red Bull won this race by being the team behind with nothing to lose, and I don't like that as a championship conclusion. So, in summary, Max Verstappen won that championship through pot luck, although, admittedly, Hamilton could have defended better on the restart. However, over the entire season, he and Red Bull have had far more bad luck, so I am okay with Verstappen as the Drivers' Champion. But if we only consider today, Mercedes and Hamilton deserved the championship and were robbed through no fault of their own.
I think it was an extremely fitting end to the season. Tremendous excitement, but highly controversial. In the end the championship was decided on a lottery. Incredible excitement, but too NASCAR. |
If they had let all the lapped cars through the decision would not have been the same as the safety car wouldn't have made the pits and the final lap would have been under the safety car with Hamilton winning.
It would have also meant Sainz could have challenged Max as well which wasn't allowed with what Masi did.
SB | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:58 - Dec 12 with 823 views | bluelagos |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:56 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
Lap 1 is irrelevant to what happened at the end, it was also determined he was pushed off the track by Max (again).
What happened at the end was entirely manufactured as it's never happened before and the race director did it to have a lap of racing that was never going to be racing given the tyres.
The two are in no way comparable.
If he cracked under pressure why are the FIA standing by the decision? It's just like VAR, it could be changed in the same way a bad ref decision is changed.
SB |
4 hours after the end of the race? VAR takes place during the game, not retrospectively. | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:58 - Dec 12 with 820 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:55 - Dec 12 by WicklowBlue |
Agree Mercedes have lodged an appeal but at this point in the interests of the sport maybe graceful accept the decision? The Race Director ff'd up but not sure anyone can categorically state Hamilton would win by default, too many variables, mechanical failure/puncture etc.
Totally disagree re. viewing figures next season, on the contrary millions more wi be tuning in to watch the rivalry and for their drive to prove they're the best. |
He would have won though as the last lap would have been behind the safety car at a slow speed.
So they can categorically say he would have won.
SB | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:59 - Dec 12 with 816 views | chrismakin |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:48 - Dec 12 by TractorFrog |
Okay, here's my conclusion about today's events.
My initial reaction was that it was totally farcical, artificial entertainment and that Hamilton had been absolutely robbed. And I stand by that; only letting the lapped cars through that were between Hamilton and Verstappen was totally unfair. Yes, their battle is the most important, but it shouldn't be seen that way by the stewards, so that was artificially created entertainment on the final lap, and I do not like that in Formula 1.
However, while the decision by the stewards showed their intentions, if they had let all the lapped cars through the outcome would have been the same, so I think we can really just put it down to awful, awful luck for Mercedes. With the situation as it was, Hamilton was leading from Verstappen, who was always going to do the opposite in regards to a pitstop. Mercedes chose to stay out, which ultimately was the wrong decision, and it cost them the championship, but if they had pitted Hamilton and the race had not been restarted, they would have looked absolutely ridiculous. Essentially, Mercedes had to choose their strategy based, not only on how quickly Latifi's car could be recovered, but how much Masi was willing to have a race on the final lap. The first part is mainly down to luck, but at least it is not entirely, but in terms of the second part, there was nothing they could have done to pre-empt that. So I don't think Mercedes made a mistake in not pitting, I think they were just extremely unlucky. Red Bull won this race by being the team behind with nothing to lose, and I don't like that as a championship conclusion. So, in summary, Max Verstappen won that championship through pot luck, although, admittedly, Hamilton could have defended better on the restart. However, over the entire season, he and Red Bull have had far more bad luck, so I am okay with Verstappen as the Drivers' Champion. But if we only consider today, Mercedes and Hamilton deserved the championship and were robbed through no fault of their own.
I think it was an extremely fitting end to the season. Tremendous excitement, but highly controversial. In the end the championship was decided on a lottery. Incredible excitement, but too NASCAR. |
2 reasons why letting all the lapped cars could have impacted the end..
First. Time.. safety car may have missed the pitline
Second.. even if all passed... Sainz could have got involved in the final battle and.who knows could have won it himself. |  |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:00 - Dec 12 with 814 views | bluelagos |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:57 - Dec 12 by Ryorry |
One thing that struck me - I don't know who the third on the podium was, but if the ending was engineered to allowing some lapped cars through and others not, isn't that rather unfair also on other drivers & constructors' teams who'd been 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th in the points standing, given how those outcomes also affect prestige & financials in the real world? 🤔 |
It was Sainz. The way it ended was a tad unfair on him, though he wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of getting past the other two. | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:02 - Dec 12 with 801 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:58 - Dec 12 by bluelagos |
4 hours after the end of the race? VAR takes place during the game, not retrospectively. |
Not really comparable either though is it.
There are untold number of examples for appealing decisions after the race in F1 - it happens every week.
It leaves a very sour taste to me.
SB | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:02 - Dec 12 with 800 views | Zapers |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:56 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
Lap 1 is irrelevant to what happened at the end, it was also determined he was pushed off the track by Max (again).
What happened at the end was entirely manufactured as it's never happened before and the race director did it to have a lap of racing that was never going to be racing given the tyres.
The two are in no way comparable.
If he cracked under pressure why are the FIA standing by the decision? It's just like VAR, it could be changed in the same way a bad ref decision is changed.
SB |
The result never had a hope of changing. The FIA where well within there right to allow the back markers to overtake the safety car. Another issue was Max overtaking Hamilton before the restart. That is definitely against the rules.
Personally I think Hamilton was hard done by, however rules are rules, however stupid they seem. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:04 - Dec 12 with 790 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:02 - Dec 12 by Zapers |
The result never had a hope of changing. The FIA where well within there right to allow the back markers to overtake the safety car. Another issue was Max overtaking Hamilton before the restart. That is definitely against the rules.
Personally I think Hamilton was hard done by, however rules are rules, however stupid they seem. |
They didn't let the back markers overtake.
They let "some" of the backmarkers overtake so Max was right behind Hamilton. The others (like Vettel) were on the radio complaining they weren't allowed.
It's never happened before that "some" of the backmarkers are allowed to overtake and not others.
SB | |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:04 - Dec 12 with 790 views | TractorFrog |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:59 - Dec 12 by chrismakin |
2 reasons why letting all the lapped cars could have impacted the end..
First. Time.. safety car may have missed the pitline
Second.. even if all passed... Sainz could have got involved in the final battle and.who knows could have won it himself. |
I don't think it would have missed the pitlane, and I don't think Sainz would have been able to challenge Verstappen, so that's why I said I don't think it actually made a difference. But I am sure that the reason for the decision was the risk of missing the pitlane, and for me that is solid proof that the restart was artificial entertainment that went against the rules. | |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
| |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:05 - Dec 12 with 784 views | Bugs |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:02 - Dec 12 by Zapers |
The result never had a hope of changing. The FIA where well within there right to allow the back markers to overtake the safety car. Another issue was Max overtaking Hamilton before the restart. That is definitely against the rules.
Personally I think Hamilton was hard done by, however rules are rules, however stupid they seem. |
ALL the back markers not a select few. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:05 - Dec 12 with 780 views | WicklowBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 19:58 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
He would have won though as the last lap would have been behind the safety car at a slow speed.
So they can categorically say he would have won.
SB |
I disagree, as stated no one can categorically state Lewis would have won as the race had not concluded Safety car or not. In all probability he would have totally, just playing devils advocate here.... | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:07 - Dec 12 with 774 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 20:05 - Dec 12 by WicklowBlue |
I disagree, as stated no one can categorically state Lewis would have won as the race had not concluded Safety car or not. In all probability he would have totally, just playing devils advocate here.... |
Not really though, I can't think of the last time someone didn't manage to finish going slowly behind the safety car especially given he had no mechanical issues as he finished going at a high speed not behind the safety car.
It's a very weird argument you are making.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 20:07]
| |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
