| F1 showdown thread 11:38 - Dec 12 with 16782 views | bluelagos |
In case anyone is unaware, is live on C4 today, coverage starts at 12, race at 1pm.
Winner takes all. We are watching history, have no doubt this season will be made into a film in time, much as the great "Rush" and "Senna" were.
I'll be shouting for Max. Much as I love Hamilton and his amazing career, the talent of Verstappen is undeniable.
Time for the new pretender or for the old guard to get the all time record for F1 championships? |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:27 - Dec 12 with 1437 views | gordon |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:24 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No, it’s for Verstappen edging ahead whilst still behind the safety car
The overtake on lap 58 was fine as racing had resumed
Agree re the lobbying point, there do have to be lines of communication and an element of lobbying (eg. asking the stewards to look at something) but certainly some of the conversations have been way past that and should be stopped |
Yes, you'd think that if they hadn't had the possibility to lobby, and the race director is just making decisions in a room without any external influence, then they would be more likely to make the right decision. It's sort of like Klopp and Guardiola being able to phone up the VAR ref and shout at them while they're making a decision (would be good enternainment though). |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:37 - Dec 12 with 1349 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:33 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
‘ Least if the WDC stands, teams know they can break the rules from now on, using this as a precedent.’ was a very odd thing to post then if you’re not saying any team broke the rules |
Well, Horner pushed Masi to break the rules in order for Max to get a gain.
So I don't think we can say the teams are innocent here.
Pretty sure that if he isn't screaming down the radio (as he admitted) that just ends up the safety car as per the rules.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:38]
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:42 - Dec 12 with 1308 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:24 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No, it’s for Verstappen edging ahead whilst still behind the safety car
The overtake on lap 58 was fine as racing had resumed
Agree re the lobbying point, there do have to be lines of communication and an element of lobbying (eg. asking the stewards to look at something) but certainly some of the conversations have been way past that and should be stopped |
Apologies - seems you are correct on this.
Does look like technically he is ahead, doesn't make a difference to the overtake but it is against the rules and gives the FIA an "out" if they want it. Silly thing for Max to do really, no need to even open himself up for that protest.
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:45 - Dec 12 with 1287 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:37 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
Well, Horner pushed Masi to break the rules in order for Max to get a gain.
So I don't think we can say the teams are innocent here.
Pretty sure that if he isn't screaming down the radio (as he admitted) that just ends up the safety car as per the rules.
SB [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:38]
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They’re not innocent but Mercedes were also doing the same thing at various points to push decisions in their favour. It shouldn’t be allowed but is and both teams are as bad as each other in that respect
Ultimately Red Bull didn’t break any rules, Masi made the decision when he should have just ignored everyone and applied the rules as normal |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:50 - Dec 12 with 1236 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:41 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Of course you were, but it’s a ridiculous point anyway
And you’re going to be very disappointed as there’s no chance it gets reversed now, even though the decision made at the time was terrible |
I won’t lose any sleep over it. (I am an Aston Martin fan). If they want to be corrupt, than so be it. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:50 - Dec 12 with 1233 views | bluestandard |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:09 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
They have also protested about the rule I quoted being ignored, will quote it again for you.
48.12 of the sporting regs:
Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.
So it should have been a safety car finish. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:11]
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Yes this is how I understand the main protest. There’s a lot of ‘you can’t penalise Max’ in the air, but if they were to amend the result to a safety car finish, it’s not like they are handing Mac an individual penalty. They are just applying their own rules correctly. It’s what should happen, and it’s a complete mess. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:52 - Dec 12 with 1222 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:50 - Dec 12 by bluestandard |
Yes this is how I understand the main protest. There’s a lot of ‘you can’t penalise Max’ in the air, but if they were to amend the result to a safety car finish, it’s not like they are handing Mac an individual penalty. They are just applying their own rules correctly. It’s what should happen, and it’s a complete mess. |
Thank you for understanding  | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 16:57 - Dec 12 with 1196 views | belgablue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:52 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
Thank you for understanding |
Imagine they’ll find some other funky way of getting themselves out of it. I just don’t understand why they’d want to set themselves up for a fail so badly at the end. Would have been much fairer, simpler and correct to finish under the safety car. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 17:05 - Dec 12 with 1156 views | gordon |
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| F1 showdown thread on 17:07 - Dec 12 with 1137 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 16:45 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
They’re not innocent but Mercedes were also doing the same thing at various points to push decisions in their favour. It shouldn’t be allowed but is and both teams are as bad as each other in that respect
Ultimately Red Bull didn’t break any rules, Masi made the decision when he should have just ignored everyone and applied the rules as normal |
Agreed.
But he didn't.
So FIA are a bit screwed now because it seems hard to show that he hasn't ignored the rules.
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| F1 showdown thread on 17:08 - Dec 12 with 1133 views | Kievthegreat |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:05 - Dec 12 by gordon |
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He's also a massive troll and he could be playing another trick on the media. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:14 - Dec 12 with 1092 views | ZXBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:07 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue |
Agreed.
But he didn't.
So FIA are a bit screwed now because it seems hard to show that he hasn't ignored the rules.
SB |
The decisions were clearly wrong, and made worse by the way he made one decision, and then changed it at a moment's notice.
They wont admit it because changing now would be worse than pretending all is well. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:18 - Dec 12 with 1076 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:14 - Dec 12 by ZXBlue |
The decisions were clearly wrong, and made worse by the way he made one decision, and then changed it at a moment's notice.
They wont admit it because changing now would be worse than pretending all is well. |
I'm not sure they will have a choice.
Barrister in with Mercedes, the rules are the rules, very little scope for interpretation in there really.
It would be highly unsatisfactory but the race unfortunately should have finished under the safety car.
Even Vettel was on the radio annoyed that he couldn't unlap himself.
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| F1 showdown thread on 17:19 - Dec 12 with 1065 views | gordon |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:14 - Dec 12 by ZXBlue |
The decisions were clearly wrong, and made worse by the way he made one decision, and then changed it at a moment's notice.
They wont admit it because changing now would be worse than pretending all is well. |
Yup, it's not just unfair for Hamilton but also for the drivers that didn't get to unlap themselves, and didn't then get to race against the drivers that did just because Verstappen happened to be in between. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 18:03 - Dec 12 with 947 views | Kievthegreat |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:19 - Dec 12 by gordon |
Yup, it's not just unfair for Hamilton but also for the drivers that didn't get to unlap themselves, and didn't then get to race against the drivers that did just because Verstappen happened to be in between. |
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| F1 showdown thread on 18:08 - Dec 12 with 928 views | Trequartista |
| F1 showdown thread on 15:54 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
I think Hamilton is confident the title will be his, after the rule breaking has been dealt with. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 15:55]
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Can't see how that can happen. If letting through *some* lapped cars is deemed illegal, there were still 2 legal actions, one of which was to let no cars through and still have a 1 lap race. The fact Hamilton would have then almost certainly won is neither here nor there, so i don't see how the last lap can be null and voided. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 18:22 - Dec 12 with 873 views | blueconscience |
| F1 showdown thread on 18:08 - Dec 12 by Trequartista |
Can't see how that can happen. If letting through *some* lapped cars is deemed illegal, there were still 2 legal actions, one of which was to let no cars through and still have a 1 lap race. The fact Hamilton would have then almost certainly won is neither here nor there, so i don't see how the last lap can be null and voided. |
Then the Director and stewards can carry on breaking rules because teams tell them to? | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 18:24 - Dec 12 with 866 views | Kievthegreat |
Appeal against Verstappen rejected.
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| F1 showdown thread on 18:24 - Dec 12 with 859 views | pointofblue |
| F1 showdown thread on 18:24 - Dec 12 by Kievthegreat |
Appeal against Verstappen rejected.
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Mercedes offered the FIA out which wasn't taken. I think it would have been desperate if it had been. | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 18:25 - Dec 12 with 858 views | WD19 |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:08 - Dec 12 by Kievthegreat |
He's also a massive troll and he could be playing another trick on the media. |
Folks on the radio described him winking and high fiving after coming out of the stewards.
Can’t see the result being changed. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 18:37 - Dec 12 with 808 views | Trequartista |
| F1 showdown thread on 18:22 - Dec 12 by blueconscience |
Then the Director and stewards can carry on breaking rules because teams tell them to? |
I don't think having both teams barking in the director's ear while he's trying to make quick decisions helps matters. If it is deemed he's made a decision outside of his powers, I don't see how that's a penalty for Verstappen, and as i said, I can only see the last lap being declared void if the only other correct protocol was to finish under the safety car, which wasn't the case. | |
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