| F1 showdown thread 11:38 - Dec 12 with 16781 views | bluelagos |
In case anyone is unaware, is live on C4 today, coverage starts at 12, race at 1pm.
Winner takes all. We are watching history, have no doubt this season will be made into a film in time, much as the great "Rush" and "Senna" were.
I'll be shouting for Max. Much as I love Hamilton and his amazing career, the talent of Verstappen is undeniable.
Time for the new pretender or for the old guard to get the all time record for F1 championships? |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:30 - Dec 13 with 1019 views | mo_itfc |
| F1 showdown thread on 09:47 - Dec 13 by Pinewoodblue |
I may have got this wrong but the cars that are allowed to unlap themselves are those who were a lap down when the safety car was deployed. Pretty sure that Lando Norris only went a lap down when he pitted for tyres after the safety car deployment.
The last few races they have been rewriting the rules as they go. Going to be ironic if one of the most exciting ends of a season ( last few races) is seen as the distruction of the sport.
Hope Mercedes and the other leading teams look at joining an alternative such electric or Indie.
Should be quite a backlash felt by Sky and others worldwide. |
I'm not continuing to pay for Sky Sports... Ipswich are hardly ever one (which might be a good thing for us...) and the F1 is less of a sport and more of entertainment like WWE and I have no interest in watching that, I want to watch sport.
I doubt they will miss me, but I do wonder how many fans F1 has now lost. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:31 - Dec 13 with 1011 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:26 - Dec 13 by Keno |
Surely Mercedes should just let it go now.
Its sport, the 'referee' has made his decision and surely thats should be final.
Maybe we should taking action with the FA over the travesty that was the 1975 F A Cup semi final replay? Decisions were made that day that were not strictly within the rules of the game but the ******** welsh ********* **** ********** decision was final |
The referee doesn't really have those powers in this case though, they found a clause but in reality it doesn't cover what happened with the unlapped cars.
I think you could also argue this decision has taken it our of the realms of sport and more into entertainment given the decision was entirely made for entertainment reasons and not sporting reasons. Even the drivers of other teams thought it was a bizarre decision.
If you'd invested 150m a year or whatever it is I suspect you'd want the rules to be adhered to.
The main worry here is that Mercedes think what's the point in F1 if the rules are random and leave and that wouldn't be good for F1 given they are a major engine manufacturer for other teams as well.
In reality it's a total mess now. It's also harsh on Max as it's tainted although probably not as harsh as it is on Lewis given he had it won on track that day.
SB |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:35 - Dec 13 with 986 views | Ewan_Oozami |
FIA didn't want Hamilton winning an 8th title so easily at the very end behind the safety car - they're an entertainment business after all, and next year they'd much prefer Hamilton and Mercedes wanting to prove a point and Max to show he's a worthy champion as it's good for the ratings. I suspect Mercedes won't be caught on the back foot at the start of next season as they were this season. Also, I think George Russell will provide more competition for Verstappen to deal with than Bottas did this season. In a lot of races, Hamiltion was often alone against the two Red Bulls and I think Russell will be much more aggressive than Bottas was.
That said, Mercedes have been out-thought tactically by Red Bull on too many occasions, they need to rethink how they run their races and not just rely on having a faster car... |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:36 - Dec 13 with 986 views | Keno |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:31 - Dec 13 by StokieBlue |
The referee doesn't really have those powers in this case though, they found a clause but in reality it doesn't cover what happened with the unlapped cars.
I think you could also argue this decision has taken it our of the realms of sport and more into entertainment given the decision was entirely made for entertainment reasons and not sporting reasons. Even the drivers of other teams thought it was a bizarre decision.
If you'd invested 150m a year or whatever it is I suspect you'd want the rules to be adhered to.
The main worry here is that Mercedes think what's the point in F1 if the rules are random and leave and that wouldn't be good for F1 given they are a major engine manufacturer for other teams as well.
In reality it's a total mess now. It's also harsh on Max as it's tainted although probably not as harsh as it is on Lewis given he had it won on track that day.
SB |
I do agree its a total mess and it does look like the FIA have fiddled things to get a 'racing result' and either then fallen foul of the law on unintended consequences or actually got the result they wanted.
I can see this going on for some time
(PS I never miss a chance to have a pop of a certain welsh ref) |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:42 - Dec 13 with 968 views | chrismakin |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:31 - Dec 13 by StokieBlue |
The referee doesn't really have those powers in this case though, they found a clause but in reality it doesn't cover what happened with the unlapped cars.
I think you could also argue this decision has taken it our of the realms of sport and more into entertainment given the decision was entirely made for entertainment reasons and not sporting reasons. Even the drivers of other teams thought it was a bizarre decision.
If you'd invested 150m a year or whatever it is I suspect you'd want the rules to be adhered to.
The main worry here is that Mercedes think what's the point in F1 if the rules are random and leave and that wouldn't be good for F1 given they are a major engine manufacturer for other teams as well.
In reality it's a total mess now. It's also harsh on Max as it's tainted although probably not as harsh as it is on Lewis given he had it won on track that day.
SB |
Rumours suggest Mercedes are withdrawing their appeal on the basis that its in the best interest of the sport that the result stands.
However. The long term future of Mercedes in the sport as you say is under question. They have spoken about Esports for a while and it may speed up that decision. After all they've won constructors 8 years now.
The sad thing is. This could also lead to Lewis retiring. He has come through so much personally this season to be screwed like that. He may feel he will never be allowed an 8th title. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:44 - Dec 13 with 966 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:35 - Dec 13 by Ewan_Oozami |
FIA didn't want Hamilton winning an 8th title so easily at the very end behind the safety car - they're an entertainment business after all, and next year they'd much prefer Hamilton and Mercedes wanting to prove a point and Max to show he's a worthy champion as it's good for the ratings. I suspect Mercedes won't be caught on the back foot at the start of next season as they were this season. Also, I think George Russell will provide more competition for Verstappen to deal with than Bottas did this season. In a lot of races, Hamiltion was often alone against the two Red Bulls and I think Russell will be much more aggressive than Bottas was.
That said, Mercedes have been out-thought tactically by Red Bull on too many occasions, they need to rethink how they run their races and not just rely on having a faster car... |
Many races have finished behind the safety car. Just because it's the last race it shouldn't make a difference. Max had the chance to be at the head of the safety car by not being 15 seconds behind Hamilton in the race.
It's just a huge mess.
As for the start of the season, the rules were changed to penalise Mercedes low rake concept and favour the high rake concept of Red Bull so it took Mercedes a while to adapt their car. Next season all the rules are changing so who knows, perhaps Williams will have the fastest car!
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:44 - Dec 13 with 966 views | Zapers |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:31 - Dec 13 by StokieBlue |
The referee doesn't really have those powers in this case though, they found a clause but in reality it doesn't cover what happened with the unlapped cars.
I think you could also argue this decision has taken it our of the realms of sport and more into entertainment given the decision was entirely made for entertainment reasons and not sporting reasons. Even the drivers of other teams thought it was a bizarre decision.
If you'd invested 150m a year or whatever it is I suspect you'd want the rules to be adhered to.
The main worry here is that Mercedes think what's the point in F1 if the rules are random and leave and that wouldn't be good for F1 given they are a major engine manufacturer for other teams as well.
In reality it's a total mess now. It's also harsh on Max as it's tainted although probably not as harsh as it is on Lewis given he had it won on track that day.
SB |
I totally agree that it’s unfair and yes In the future it’s likely that this controversy will continue to rage. However the FIA are not equivalent to a referee. The FIA are the governing body of motorsport and their decision is final.
I’m sure that Mercedes will continue to race. Winning the constructors title is far more important to a team. Merc have won it for 8 years, not to shoddy. | | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:56 - Dec 13 with 938 views | NthQldITFC |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:26 - Dec 13 by Keno |
Surely Mercedes should just let it go now.
Its sport, the 'referee' has made his decision and surely thats should be final.
Maybe we should taking action with the FA over the travesty that was the 1975 F A Cup semi final replay? Decisions were made that day that were not strictly within the rules of the game but the ******** welsh ********* **** ********** decision was final |
I'm not a motor racing fan, in fact I'm a bit on the anti-motor racing side for (perhaps tenuous, but symbolic) environmental reasons, and because it doesn't really seem like a sport to me, more corporate competition dressed up as a sport.
But leaving that aside, I did watch this as it looked like being an exciting watch. That ending left me thinking this 'sport' is even more of a joke than I thought it was. Bent as the Tory party and infested with egotistical knobs.
If I wanted to watch a race where you could change the rules right at the end to choose who was going to win, I would look out some old Wacky Races videos on YouTube. At least Penelope Pitstop and Dick Dastardly weren't licking corporate arses and pretending it was a level playing field of Olympian endeavour. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 11:57 - Dec 13 with 937 views | Ely_Blue |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:44 - Dec 13 by StokieBlue |
Many races have finished behind the safety car. Just because it's the last race it shouldn't make a difference. Max had the chance to be at the head of the safety car by not being 15 seconds behind Hamilton in the race.
It's just a huge mess.
As for the start of the season, the rules were changed to penalise Mercedes low rake concept and favour the high rake concept of Red Bull so it took Mercedes a while to adapt their car. Next season all the rules are changing so who knows, perhaps Williams will have the fastest car!
SB |
But also I would argue that in any other race that the guys in 3rd/4th would like to have been in a place to have a pop at the victory or the 2nd place guy, they were denied that chance too unlike Max.
It really does smack of them not wanting to give Hamilton the title and to allow RB to get their own way.
Too much pressure on Masi by the slime ball Horner with his “we only need 1 lap” plea |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 12:01 - Dec 13 with 930 views | TractorFrog |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:42 - Dec 13 by chrismakin |
Rumours suggest Mercedes are withdrawing their appeal on the basis that its in the best interest of the sport that the result stands.
However. The long term future of Mercedes in the sport as you say is under question. They have spoken about Esports for a while and it may speed up that decision. After all they've won constructors 8 years now.
The sad thing is. This could also lead to Lewis retiring. He has come through so much personally this season to be screwed like that. He may feel he will never be allowed an 8th title. |
But why would Mercedes agree to that? Surely they don't care about the best interest of the sport if they feel they've been robbed of the title and can get it back. |  |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
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| F1 showdown thread on 12:14 - Dec 13 with 905 views | chrismakin |
| F1 showdown thread on 12:01 - Dec 13 by TractorFrog |
But why would Mercedes agree to that? Surely they don't care about the best interest of the sport if they feel they've been robbed of the title and can get it back. |
What are the potential ramifications.
If the lose the appeal. Can the FIA then go at them and chase them for dragging the company through the mud. Etc
Also. Their lawyers may suggest it's a non win based on the fact the race director can effectively do what he wants. When he wants. It sucks. But the only way to beat that is to prove he did it for bet fixing purposes.
Whilst I dislike max as a driver and whilst I find him being champion terrible based solely on the end of the race... the fact he's barely being talked about shows how much of a fk up massey made. | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 12:37 - Dec 13 with 867 views | eireblue |
| F1 showdown thread on 11:35 - Dec 13 by Ewan_Oozami |
FIA didn't want Hamilton winning an 8th title so easily at the very end behind the safety car - they're an entertainment business after all, and next year they'd much prefer Hamilton and Mercedes wanting to prove a point and Max to show he's a worthy champion as it's good for the ratings. I suspect Mercedes won't be caught on the back foot at the start of next season as they were this season. Also, I think George Russell will provide more competition for Verstappen to deal with than Bottas did this season. In a lot of races, Hamiltion was often alone against the two Red Bulls and I think Russell will be much more aggressive than Bottas was.
That said, Mercedes have been out-thought tactically by Red Bull on too many occasions, they need to rethink how they run their races and not just rely on having a faster car... |
I think during this race, the issue is that Mercedes needed to keep track position.
Mainly because passing Max is always a risk, in this race much more so.
So in some ways Mercedes strategy, was somewhat determined by how Max may drive, if Lewis was in a position to overtake.
Yep it maybe interesting if RB an MB have similar performing cars and George can give both Max an Lewis a bit of a challenge. George can always try the I am still young and learning so still tend to weave about and bounce into other people gambit. |  | | |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:19 - Sep 30 with 535 views | StokieBlue |
Could be another twist about to emerge here. Rumours in the paddock that Red Bull have breached the budget cap for last season (and this season). Breaches can be "minor" or "major" and rumours are it's a major breach of possibly 5m.
Mercedes and Ferrari are saying this could equate to 0.5 seconds a lap for last years car.
If that all turns out to be true it makes what happened in Abu Dhabi look even worse although I am sure the FIA will find a way to make it all go away like they did with their investigation.
SB | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 17:22 - Sep 30 with 523 views | TractorFrog |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:19 - Sep 30 by StokieBlue |
Could be another twist about to emerge here. Rumours in the paddock that Red Bull have breached the budget cap for last season (and this season). Breaches can be "minor" or "major" and rumours are it's a major breach of possibly 5m.
Mercedes and Ferrari are saying this could equate to 0.5 seconds a lap for last years car.
If that all turns out to be true it makes what happened in Abu Dhabi look even worse although I am sure the FIA will find a way to make it all go away like they did with their investigation.
SB |
It is probably true, but Ferrari didn't lose their wins in 2019 when they had an illegal engine. We will end up with a situation like 1994 where Michael Schumacher had two reasons why he shouldn't have won the title (hitting Damon Hill in Adelaide and the illegal launch control on the Benetton), but won it anyway. | |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
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| F1 showdown thread on 17:24 - Sep 30 with 513 views | StokieBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:22 - Sep 30 by TractorFrog |
It is probably true, but Ferrari didn't lose their wins in 2019 when they had an illegal engine. We will end up with a situation like 1994 where Michael Schumacher had two reasons why he shouldn't have won the title (hitting Damon Hill in Adelaide and the illegal launch control on the Benetton), but won it anyway. |
I suspect Mercedes and Ferrari will push for large reductions in their budget for 2023 which will heavily restrict their development, especially as they seem to have broken the cap this season as well.
The result from last year is unlikely to be changed as you say.
SB | |
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| F1 showdown thread on 19:04 - Sep 30 with 476 views | Pinewoodblue |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:24 - Sep 30 by StokieBlue |
I suspect Mercedes and Ferrari will push for large reductions in their budget for 2023 which will heavily restrict their development, especially as they seem to have broken the cap this season as well.
The result from last year is unlikely to be changed as you say.
SB |
How about a tiny penalty, a nice little 5 sec penalty for Red Bull's leading car in the last race of last season. |  |
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| F1 showdown thread on 20:00 - Sep 30 with 440 views | FrimleyBlue |
| F1 showdown thread on 17:19 - Sep 30 by StokieBlue |
Could be another twist about to emerge here. Rumours in the paddock that Red Bull have breached the budget cap for last season (and this season). Breaches can be "minor" or "major" and rumours are it's a major breach of possibly 5m.
Mercedes and Ferrari are saying this could equate to 0.5 seconds a lap for last years car.
If that all turns out to be true it makes what happened in Abu Dhabi look even worse although I am sure the FIA will find a way to make it all go away like they did with their investigation.
SB |
It's a massive thing and Toto explained it perfectly, it didn't just effect 2021, it then effected this seasons and now next seasons.
IF they are found Guilty, they have to throw the book at them or face a legal battle by bigger teams for loss of potential earnings |  |
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