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The Germans keeping Biden well and truly in check. If Afghanistan didn’t send enough signals, Putin surely now smells blood. The Ukrainian people at least will still put up a fight even if everyone else just stands by with a few tough words and some “sanctions”. It’s laughable really, what has Putin got to lose, he knows no one is actually going to do anything about this. NATO will just look weaker and weaker (and get a lot less American money in the future I might add).
Genuine question, what are the repercussions on an international stage nowadays, I mean outside of hosting a major global tournament.
Tick tock…. Taiwan
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 09:48 - Feb 25 with 1209 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 09:24 - Feb 25 by BanksterDebtSlave
China have an alternative version.
Butt their system has nothing like the reach of Swift, and I would imagine Western banks would be reluctant to use it, for security reasons . It is not just a messenger service it is a clearing service. When it was installed and used by virtually all banks it revolutionized international payments. It is unthinkable that crypto currency would be used by states such as Germany to pay Russia for oil and gas.
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 09:53 - Feb 25 with 1194 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 07:54 - Feb 25 by Lord_Lucan
UK and USA have recommended Russia is removed from SWIFT but EU don't agree. This would be much more effective and damaging to Russia than any current sanctions.
UK also leading the backing up of Ukraine with defence supplies and intelligence
Yet of course UK is too soft and corrupt according to some.
As an aside............Russia public staging demonstrations and although Russia seems to be steamrolling through, things aren't going all their way.
[Post edited 25 Feb 2022 7:59]
No. It’s definitely Boris Johnson’s fault
All very well Bunter citing it and saying “Nothing’s off the table!†- what else is the UK waiting for Putin to do?
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 07:54 - Feb 25 by Lord_Lucan
UK and USA have recommended Russia is removed from SWIFT but EU don't agree. This would be much more effective and damaging to Russia than any current sanctions.
UK also leading the backing up of Ukraine with defence supplies and intelligence
Yet of course UK is too soft and corrupt according to some.
As an aside............Russia public staging demonstrations and although Russia seems to be steamrolling through, things aren't going all their way.
[Post edited 25 Feb 2022 7:59]
Not entirely true, the recommendation to remove Russia from SWIFT is being held up by concerns in Germany, Italy, Hungary and a couple of other nations but is expected to be ratified later today after discussions in the EU that the UK are not party to (for obvious reasons).
The reasoning behind the delay appears to be centred around German concerns that Russia would lean a little too much toward China who have an alternative system available, leaving Russia with no way back.
It's not the EU holding things up, more a discussion within the group and questions that were asked yesterday as to how best to manage any fall out - which is the sensible approach.
As for military equipment, there is an even spread from amongst NATO and the EU. The only nation amongst the group not really supplying much hardware is Germany who have had a historic reticence in sending military equipment to combat zones following the end of the Second World War.
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 07:54 - Feb 25 by Lord_Lucan
UK and USA have recommended Russia is removed from SWIFT but EU don't agree. This would be much more effective and damaging to Russia than any current sanctions.
UK also leading the backing up of Ukraine with defence supplies and intelligence
Yet of course UK is too soft and corrupt according to some.
As an aside............Russia public staging demonstrations and although Russia seems to be steamrolling through, things aren't going all their way.
[Post edited 25 Feb 2022 7:59]
False.
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 14:25 - Feb 25 with 1049 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 10:24 - Feb 25 by Bluetaff
Not entirely true, the recommendation to remove Russia from SWIFT is being held up by concerns in Germany, Italy, Hungary and a couple of other nations but is expected to be ratified later today after discussions in the EU that the UK are not party to (for obvious reasons).
The reasoning behind the delay appears to be centred around German concerns that Russia would lean a little too much toward China who have an alternative system available, leaving Russia with no way back.
It's not the EU holding things up, more a discussion within the group and questions that were asked yesterday as to how best to manage any fall out - which is the sensible approach.
As for military equipment, there is an even spread from amongst NATO and the EU. The only nation amongst the group not really supplying much hardware is Germany who have had a historic reticence in sending military equipment to combat zones following the end of the Second World War.
"It is always an option," Biden said. "But right now, that's not the position that the rest of Europe wishes to take."
The German Chancellor said nah.
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 14:35 - Feb 25 with 1041 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 08:09 - Feb 25 by giant_stow
I think the Germans are wondering how they'll pay for the Russian gas without this payment system. Plus the Russians would probably stop supplying it in retaliation in any case. We in the west need a new source of energy incredibly urgently. Covid style reaction needed.
Whatever everyone things about the narcissist lunatic, got to admit from three years ago this is quite relevant today
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 06:26 - Feb 26 with 903 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 14:25 - Feb 25 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
"It is always an option," Biden said. "But right now, that's not the position that the rest of Europe wishes to take."
The German Chancellor said nah.
The West are so impotent. Even the largely symbolic sanctions so far have no consistency. Boris said there would be hundreds of affected individuals and companies yesterday. Only 11 have emerged. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60524666
We are genuinely just standing around at the water cooler shouting out ideas whilst Russia try to overthrow Kyiv.
I saw a Lenin quote elsewhere. "There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen" we need to crank up the reaction a bit or it will decided before we agree anything meaningful.
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 06:26 - Feb 26 by TractorWood
The West are so impotent. Even the largely symbolic sanctions so far have no consistency. Boris said there would be hundreds of affected individuals and companies yesterday. Only 11 have emerged. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60524666
We are genuinely just standing around at the water cooler shouting out ideas whilst Russia try to overthrow Kyiv.
I saw a Lenin quote elsewhere. "There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen" we need to crank up the reaction a bit or it will decided before we agree anything meaningful.
In terms of doing something meaningful, last night on CNN and Twitter the former Supreme Allied Commander Europe General Wesley Clark advocated a no fly zone over Ukraine by NATO.
His view is that it was entirely possible, given the capability of NATO aircraft, and something that had been done before in previous conflicts.
It’s interesting to speculate what might have happened other than slowing up the Russian army, in terms of what Putin’s response might have been, given his order for the west not to interfere.
As for the Russians who are protesting about this, they are incredibly brave. I do fear for them.
I can understand Germany’s caution in all of this given their history and how that’s shaped more recent generations. In terms of military support it’s very obvious why they’d be reticent to send or approve use of their weapons in the area. It’s less obvious regarding financial sanctions, but again they’re going to be very cautious. Besides, Biden himself has said the current bank sanctions are likely to be more impactful than targeting SWIFT, so I’m not sure the OP is particularly accurate.
Edit - I should have read the thread. Bluetaff and others have said this and more, far more eloquently than I could.
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 09:38 - Feb 25 by WD19
Set up Security Council 2.0 and leave them to it.
Yes, that would make Russia and China Apple whilst the United States, European Union and United Kingdom become Microsoft - which everyone still uses, don't they? Meanwhile, India comes up with the Android comparison...
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 08:01 - Feb 26 by Swansea_Blue
I can understand Germany’s caution in all of this given their history and how that’s shaped more recent generations. In terms of military support it’s very obvious why they’d be reticent to send or approve use of their weapons in the area. It’s less obvious regarding financial sanctions, but again they’re going to be very cautious. Besides, Biden himself has said the current bank sanctions are likely to be more impactful than targeting SWIFT, so I’m not sure the OP is particularly accurate.
Edit - I should have read the thread. Bluetaff and others have said this and more, far more eloquently than I could.
[Post edited 26 Feb 2022 8:34]
The attached makes some interesting points on where Germany is in this. It’s a bit rambling in parts and was written early Feb, but I think the points made are still thought provoking.
I’ve no idea about the website. It may be rubbish, but Germany’s current stance is interesting and what it does after Ukraine is swallowed up will be even more so.
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 08:32 - Feb 26 by Churchman
The attached makes some interesting points on where Germany is in this. It’s a bit rambling in parts and was written early Feb, but I think the points made are still thought provoking.
I’ve no idea about the website. It may be rubbish, but Germany’s current stance is interesting and what it does after Ukraine is swallowed up will be even more so.
Really interesting, thanks. I’d seen parts of this reasoning elsewhere, but this seems to pull together a lot of threads. It’s worth pointing out explicitly that Germany’s response here is not unique to Russia/Ukraine. Their position on military aid has always been consistent whatever the conflict (with only one or two notable exceptions).
Just imagine the worst case scenario and Ukraine is assimilated into Russia - that hasn’t happened since 1999 - and I don’t remember the world ending then
Look up ‘the forgotten holocaust’. Russia has murdered millions of Ukrainians in the recent past and the west didn’t bat an eyelid.
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 08:43 - Feb 26 by Swansea_Blue
Really interesting, thanks. I’d seen parts of this reasoning elsewhere, but this seems to pull together a lot of threads. It’s worth pointing out explicitly that Germany’s response here is not unique to Russia/Ukraine. Their position on military aid has always been consistent whatever the conflict (with only one or two notable exceptions).
Thank you for this. It again helps put a little meat in the bones of understanding as to why Germany behaves as it does at the moment.
For the 1945 carnage in Germany and the aftermath I recommend Antony Beevor’s book Berlin. It’s the best of them, in my view. It’s informing, shocking and thought provoking.
Germany’s situation is very complex. I’ve been to the country a fair bit in my lifetime and like it and the people a lot. I’ve always felt comfortable there, but I don’t claim to understand how they see the world.
An interesting view on current sanctions actions from Donald Tusk:
Reports this morning that 20+ nations sending lethal aid/weapons to Ukraine. Possibly more effective than sanctions, albeit would assume quite provocative to Putin?
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 12:48 - Feb 26 with 673 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 09:23 - Feb 26 by Churchman
Thank you for this. It again helps put a little meat in the bones of understanding as to why Germany behaves as it does at the moment.
For the 1945 carnage in Germany and the aftermath I recommend Antony Beevor’s book Berlin. It’s the best of them, in my view. It’s informing, shocking and thought provoking.
Germany’s situation is very complex. I’ve been to the country a fair bit in my lifetime and like it and the people a lot. I’ve always felt comfortable there, but I don’t claim to understand how they see the world.
An interesting view on current sanctions actions from Donald Tusk:
I see Germany’s changed their position today, both in approving the use of weapons they’ve sold and sending some directly (I think, but I’ve only seen headlines). That’s a big change in their position & feels pretty significant.
Hearing rumours that Putins bitten off more than he can chew and doesn’t have sufficient firepower or supplies to carry this off. No idea if true, but let’s hope so and it fizzles out.
In this war everything is real: Putin’s madness and cruelty, Ukrainian victims, bombs falling on Kyiv. Only your sanctions are pretended. Those EU government’s, which blocked tough decisions (i.a. Germany, Hungary, Italy) have disgraced themselves.
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 20:59 - Feb 26 by Swansea_Blue
I see Germany’s changed their position today, both in approving the use of weapons they’ve sold and sending some directly (I think, but I’ve only seen headlines). That’s a big change in their position & feels pretty significant.
Hearing rumours that Putins bitten off more than he can chew and doesn’t have sufficient firepower or supplies to carry this off. No idea if true, but let’s hope so and it fizzles out.
I’ve just read both those bits of news. And it’s good news. For the Putin indigestion story, I have my doubts about it being a glass half empty merchant, but hey, who knows. Fingers crossed. The harder the Ukrainians make it, the more likely it is for the ‘plan’ to unravel and the more difficult it’ll be for Putin..
The German change of position is fascinating and I’ll be very interested to understand what has brought it about. It’s a very significant and positive change.
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 21:49 - Feb 26 with 563 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 07:54 - Feb 25 by Lord_Lucan
UK and USA have recommended Russia is removed from SWIFT but EU don't agree. This would be much more effective and damaging to Russia than any current sanctions.
UK also leading the backing up of Ukraine with defence supplies and intelligence
Yet of course UK is too soft and corrupt according to some.
As an aside............Russia public staging demonstrations and although Russia seems to be steamrolling through, things aren't going all their way.
[Post edited 25 Feb 2022 7:59]
that is nonsense
Is this the same UK whose PM and others have been happy to trouser Putins money....anyone for tennis ?
There is no real evidence of what countries have been offering, and giving in support, other than those gobbing off to distract from being in the pay of Putin. Johnson, May, Trump etc. In the past decade London has been a haven for dodgy Russian money. The police and lawyers hamstrung as they tried to clamp down on it. Where then the bloated hypocrites words r actions ?
But then it would not be a rightie post without an attack on the EU, much as Putin has been doing for years. Your ignorance on this matter suggests a jerk of the knee rather than a use of the brain.
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So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 22:07 - Feb 26 with 544 views
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 21:49 - Feb 26 by HARRY10
that is nonsense
Is this the same UK whose PM and others have been happy to trouser Putins money....anyone for tennis ?
There is no real evidence of what countries have been offering, and giving in support, other than those gobbing off to distract from being in the pay of Putin. Johnson, May, Trump etc. In the past decade London has been a haven for dodgy Russian money. The police and lawyers hamstrung as they tried to clamp down on it. Where then the bloated hypocrites words r actions ?
But then it would not be a rightie post without an attack on the EU, much as Putin has been doing for years. Your ignorance on this matter suggests a jerk of the knee rather than a use of the brain.
Just for us mentally challenged righties Harry, which parts exactly of Lucan's post are you calling out as nonsense?
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 21:14 - Feb 26 by Churchman
I’ve just read both those bits of news. And it’s good news. For the Putin indigestion story, I have my doubts about it being a glass half empty merchant, but hey, who knows. Fingers crossed. The harder the Ukrainians make it, the more likely it is for the ‘plan’ to unravel and the more difficult it’ll be for Putin..
The German change of position is fascinating and I’ll be very interested to understand what has brought it about. It’s a very significant and positive change.
EU just announced the SWIFT changes. Co-ordinated to effectively stop exports/imports in Russia
BREAK: EU commits to removing certain number of Russian banks from SWIFT. UVDL says this will ‘effectively block Russian exports and imports’ https://t.co/b1tlftwAY8
So no cutting off Russia from Swift then? on 22:16 - Feb 26 by ElderGrizzly
EU just announced the SWIFT changes. Co-ordinated to effectively stop exports/imports in Russia
BREAK: EU commits to removing certain number of Russian banks from SWIFT. UVDL says this will ‘effectively block Russian exports and imports’ https://t.co/b1tlftwAY8
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