| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? 12:16 - Jun 2 with 4533 views | Crawfordsboot |
Disrupting the celebrations by protesting members of animal rebellion. Are they self righteous prat’s Totally out of step with the beliefs of the vast majority or are they the enlightened few? |  | | |  |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:27 - Jun 2 with 1022 views | wkj |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:25 - Jun 2 by Crawfordsboot |
I have no argument with your sentiment but my focus really is about how to resolve the tension between the right to protest and the rights of members of society to go about their lives in accordance with socially accepted norms. As has been noted elsewhere drawing the line is the tricky bit.
Re. The celebrations today - Personally I loathe the sycophantic fawning to the the royals but I know that a great many people love and respect them. I am therefore hunkered down watching the cricket! |
Im largely the same, but it is not stopping me from bagging myself a 4 day paid holiday with 2 days annual leave tacked on to Monday and Tuesday - it writes itself. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:32 - Jun 2 with 1005 views | monytowbray |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:25 - Jun 2 by Crawfordsboot |
I have no argument with your sentiment but my focus really is about how to resolve the tension between the right to protest and the rights of members of society to go about their lives in accordance with socially accepted norms. As has been noted elsewhere drawing the line is the tricky bit.
Re. The celebrations today - Personally I loathe the sycophantic fawning to the the royals but I know that a great many people love and respect them. I am therefore hunkered down watching the cricket! |
I hate to invoke Godwin’s Law. But once upon a time people had the same debate in 1930s Germany when people protested absolute Nazi rule.
But whilst invoking Godwin’s law, it’s worth noting the relevance of the fact the UK has never looked closer to an authoritarian dictatorship in well over a handful of lifetimes. It’s getting worse too.
There are much bigger factors at play and reducing the argument to a limited spectrum is a written and celebrated tactic in the current right wing playbook (as it puts the debate on their own terms against more informed folk who might actually drag the conversation somewhere relevant).
That is one of my biggest challenges with what you could rudely call “centralist TWTD” - Both siding any matter or toning it down to keep everyone happy isn’t productive as one may think if they fundamentally disagree with bigoted views. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:34 - Jun 2 with 1010 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:18 - Jun 2 by monytowbray |
And we loop back to that old dilemma that the “right” time and way to protest is in a way where it bothers no one, has no impact, is seen by no one and largely does nothing.
What people also forget is “wrong” way to protest always happens after “right” way has been exhausted and ignored.
I’d love for everyone to quietly realise going vegan, reducing travel and highly proactive conscious spending (Do I really need this? Could I make it myself with repurposed materials? Is it wasteful? What harm was done in it’s production/transport? What ethics do the company making/selling it abide by? Etc) would change the world very fast and do what we need to save the planet. But that isn’t happening, therefore WAVE AND MAKE BIG NOISE OR WE ALL DIE OFF IN THE NEXT HUNDRED YEARS.
It’s a very big deal, and I don’t think large chunks of society have really woke up to that reality. They are being force fed a false sense of comfort through propaganda/marketing and the illusion of global political stability.
The world will not end with a bang. There will not be a sudden surprise moment where we change overnight and disaster avoided. There will not be a clear A > B action plan from any politician that would work (they are largely inept these days and not fit for purpose). Scientists will do their best but hope would be limited (it already is in scientific communities if you wondered, many have made their peace with the death of earth).
It will be slow. Painful. Gradual. It will be water and crop shortages that mean we have no food. It will be weather conditions that regularly reek havoc and create eco refugees. County boarders will spring up with UK citizens treat other UK citizens the same way right wingers treat Channel refugees today. Policing and oppressive forces all be doubling down during this period to get to comply. Warring political factions will mean continual danger and instability whilst you’re just looking to keep a roof on your head and food in your mouth. Money will become largely useless. [Post edited 2 Jun 2022 13:26]
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You might well be 100% correct in every point you make but on the other hand I think others, such as the anti vax brigade for example, are probably 100% wrong in what they say. If you want to force me to accept your point of view then you have to accept being force fed things you disagree with.
I prefer requiring you to persuade me with the power of your logic! | | | |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:37 - Jun 2 with 998 views | factual_blue |
Surely they're just using the same freedom of speech and assembly that the right are so keen to invoke? |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:42 - Jun 2 with 981 views | Guthrum |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:18 - Jun 2 by monytowbray |
And we loop back to that old dilemma that the “right” time and way to protest is in a way where it bothers no one, has no impact, is seen by no one and largely does nothing.
What people also forget is “wrong” way to protest always happens after “right” way has been exhausted and ignored.
I’d love for everyone to quietly realise going vegan, reducing travel and highly proactive conscious spending (Do I really need this? Could I make it myself with repurposed materials? Is it wasteful? What harm was done in it’s production/transport? What ethics do the company making/selling it abide by? Etc) would change the world very fast and do what we need to save the planet. But that isn’t happening, therefore WAVE AND MAKE BIG NOISE OR WE ALL DIE OFF IN THE NEXT HUNDRED YEARS.
It’s a very big deal, and I don’t think large chunks of society have really woke up to that reality. They are being force fed a false sense of comfort through propaganda/marketing and the illusion of global political stability.
The world will not end with a bang. There will not be a sudden surprise moment where we change overnight and disaster avoided. There will not be a clear A > B action plan from any politician that would work (they are largely inept these days and not fit for purpose). Scientists will do their best but hope would be limited (it already is in scientific communities if you wondered, many have made their peace with the death of earth).
It will be slow. Painful. Gradual. It will be water and crop shortages that mean we have no food. It will be weather conditions that regularly reek havoc and create eco refugees. County boarders will spring up with UK citizens treat other UK citizens the same way right wingers treat Channel refugees today. Policing and oppressive forces all be doubling down during this period to get to comply. Warring political factions will mean continual danger and instability whilst you’re just looking to keep a roof on your head and food in your mouth. Money will become largely useless. [Post edited 2 Jun 2022 13:26]
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It's not so much a matter of whether it's ethically right or wrong to protest (when you believe in a cause, there is no wrong time to make your point), but if doing it at that time and place is going to be effective. You are, after all, trying to sway public opinion. If the public are repelled by the location or content of a protest, have you furthered your aims? Are potential supporters being alienated? |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:53 - Jun 2 with 923 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:42 - Jun 2 by Guthrum |
It's not so much a matter of whether it's ethically right or wrong to protest (when you believe in a cause, there is no wrong time to make your point), but if doing it at that time and place is going to be effective. You are, after all, trying to sway public opinion. If the public are repelled by the location or content of a protest, have you furthered your aims? Are potential supporters being alienated? |
Are you trying to sway public opinion though?
I think it’s a) awareness of the underlying issue which in the case of the calamitous effects of beef and dairy is still woeful in the U.K. (for example, many people still think that local and organic is fine but they couldn’t be missing the point more). And b) protesters have to be dealt with by the authorities, and the issue is literally forced onto agendas when it was easily side-stepped before.
As long as issues like this remain criminally ignored, there’ll always be a need for direct action. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:56 - Jun 2 with 911 views | NthQldITFC |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:42 - Jun 2 by Guthrum |
It's not so much a matter of whether it's ethically right or wrong to protest (when you believe in a cause, there is no wrong time to make your point), but if doing it at that time and place is going to be effective. You are, after all, trying to sway public opinion. If the public are repelled by the location or content of a protest, have you furthered your aims? Are potential supporters being alienated? |
I agree with this, and I also agree completely with monytowbray's post.
Probably tactically wrong to protest today, but not in any other way wrong to be protesting and causing 'inconvenience' and disruption, when the issues are so mind-blowingly serious and put all other human concerns added together deeply in the shade.
I think monytowbray's last point about money becoming virtually useless is the thing that some of us in the West need to realise. We might be thinking that although climate change is real, we will be insulated from the worst effects of it because we have accrued wealth. We won't. When society breaks down as it likely to do without radical and rapid change, only the extremely wealthy will be insulated from the immediate anarchy, and possibly only then for a shortish period. If you value your kids' futures, make changes to your own lifestyle right now, and support people who are trying to make a difference. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:02 - Jun 2 with 898 views | Guthrum |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:53 - Jun 2 by Darth_Koont |
Are you trying to sway public opinion though?
I think it’s a) awareness of the underlying issue which in the case of the calamitous effects of beef and dairy is still woeful in the U.K. (for example, many people still think that local and organic is fine but they couldn’t be missing the point more). And b) protesters have to be dealt with by the authorities, and the issue is literally forced onto agendas when it was easily side-stepped before.
As long as issues like this remain criminally ignored, there’ll always be a need for direct action. |
Yes. Without swaying public opinion, you cannot effect change. There is no other mechanism than getting significant numbers of people - or sufficiently influential ones - to decide that something is (or is not) a good idea and pressurising the authorities to act.
It needs to be brought to people's attention, yes, but they also need to be persuaded to agree with you. Otherwise you will merely be pigeonholed as annoying nutters. That means education and social activism as well as protest. Plus tactically picking your occasions. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:05 - Jun 2 with 866 views | monytowbray |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:02 - Jun 2 by Guthrum |
Yes. Without swaying public opinion, you cannot effect change. There is no other mechanism than getting significant numbers of people - or sufficiently influential ones - to decide that something is (or is not) a good idea and pressurising the authorities to act.
It needs to be brought to people's attention, yes, but they also need to be persuaded to agree with you. Otherwise you will merely be pigeonholed as annoying nutters. That means education and social activism as well as protest. Plus tactically picking your occasions. |
The majority disliked and disapproved MJKjr when he was alive though.
Get the sentiment but in practice historically we’ve largely whitewashed how protest/progress works. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:09 - Jun 2 with 852 views | leitrimblue |
All seems very tame. Let me know when they have smashed their way into the Palace and are eating the occupants |  | | |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:10 - Jun 2 with 849 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:02 - Jun 2 by Guthrum |
Yes. Without swaying public opinion, you cannot effect change. There is no other mechanism than getting significant numbers of people - or sufficiently influential ones - to decide that something is (or is not) a good idea and pressurising the authorities to act.
It needs to be brought to people's attention, yes, but they also need to be persuaded to agree with you. Otherwise you will merely be pigeonholed as annoying nutters. That means education and social activism as well as protest. Plus tactically picking your occasions. |
But people are swayed by the issue. Which if you protest nicely is almost always ignored.
There are also enough people including respected celebrities talking nicely about the issue and it’s being ignored.
I think your idealised view of how protest can and should work doesn’t really gibe with reality.
Insulate Britain didn’t sway the population with their tactics but they did create awareness of something most people were blithely unaware of. I have seen it now brought forward in different green policies. Is that cause or correlation, I don’t know, but I think it’s fair to say that making it a national talking point increased the likelihood. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:24 - Jun 2 with 818 views | Churchman |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:25 - Jun 2 by Crawfordsboot |
I have no argument with your sentiment but my focus really is about how to resolve the tension between the right to protest and the rights of members of society to go about their lives in accordance with socially accepted norms. As has been noted elsewhere drawing the line is the tricky bit.
Re. The celebrations today - Personally I loathe the sycophantic fawning to the the royals but I know that a great many people love and respect them. I am therefore hunkered down watching the cricket! |
I’m not going to get into an argument with certain posters over this. Your view is broadly where I’m at on it and as you rightly point out, drawing the line certainly is the tricky bit.
I had the Trooping of the Colour on today (while reading my book - Michael Holding’s book We Kneel, We Rise - very thought provoking for anyone interested in social change/racism) because the misses wanted to see it. Not something I usually watch, given my views expressed in other posts, but it was a great piece of pageantry, as always.
The people there enjoyed it, the queen and co looked happy enough, the lickspittlers and toadies were out in force on the BBC. It didn’t do any harm. There’s plenty of other times and ways to protest, not least to the actual decision makers.
Just my view. |  | | |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:30 - Jun 2 with 803 views | Guthrum |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:05 - Jun 2 by monytowbray |
The majority disliked and disapproved MJKjr when he was alive though.
Get the sentiment but in practice historically we’ve largely whitewashed how protest/progress works. |
But he was very effective in getting his message across, targeting his protests, concentrating upon reconciliation rather than confrontation. Which is why he is considered the leading figure of the civil rights movement rather than Marcus Garvey or Louis Farrakhan.
You don't have to change everybody's view. That's never going to be possible. Just enough - and the right people - to make change happen. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:37 - Jun 2 with 796 views | Guthrum |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:10 - Jun 2 by Darth_Koont |
But people are swayed by the issue. Which if you protest nicely is almost always ignored.
There are also enough people including respected celebrities talking nicely about the issue and it’s being ignored.
I think your idealised view of how protest can and should work doesn’t really gibe with reality.
Insulate Britain didn’t sway the population with their tactics but they did create awareness of something most people were blithely unaware of. I have seen it now brought forward in different green policies. Is that cause or correlation, I don’t know, but I think it’s fair to say that making it a national talking point increased the likelihood. |
I carefully didn't say protesting nicely. It's more about calculating the impact of each action. Does disrupting the Jubilee procession in the Mall gain you fresh supporters and cause those with influence to support your aims? If not, what is the point of it?
I don't think anyone can claim that most of the UK population are unaware of the climate issue. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:44 - Jun 2 with 785 views | BlueBadger |
By and large, I approve of direct action but they also appear to be vegans of the vvankiest sort, so it's a toughie. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:44 - Jun 2 with 783 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:37 - Jun 2 by Guthrum |
I carefully didn't say protesting nicely. It's more about calculating the impact of each action. Does disrupting the Jubilee procession in the Mall gain you fresh supporters and cause those with influence to support your aims? If not, what is the point of it?
I don't think anyone can claim that most of the UK population are unaware of the climate issue. |
I think the raised awareness vs the actual disruption is great for this. And the perceived distress of people who think the protest isn’t justified is largely irrelevant. It’s only awareness that would make these people change their minds anyway.
And no, I think people are still pretty unaware about the climate issue. Yes, they hear about it all the time but for example have little idea about the pressing need to insulate houses much better or the massively damaging effect of beef and dairy in particular.
It’s human nature to not think about stuff until we have to. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:57 - Jun 2 with 756 views | NthQldITFC |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:44 - Jun 2 by Darth_Koont |
I think the raised awareness vs the actual disruption is great for this. And the perceived distress of people who think the protest isn’t justified is largely irrelevant. It’s only awareness that would make these people change their minds anyway.
And no, I think people are still pretty unaware about the climate issue. Yes, they hear about it all the time but for example have little idea about the pressing need to insulate houses much better or the massively damaging effect of beef and dairy in particular.
It’s human nature to not think about stuff until we have to. |
'It’s human nature to not think about stuff until we have to.'
The people who don't realise that they have to think about climate change by now, will probably be lucky enough to go out without ever realising that there is a problem. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 15:15 - Jun 2 with 729 views | ghostofescobar |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:02 - Jun 2 by ZXBlue |
How very unpleasant. |
Apologies. No-one should have the image of angry golf playing gammons thrust upon them on a bank holiday. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 15:49 - Jun 2 with 695 views | factual_blue |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 14:09 - Jun 2 by leitrimblue |
All seems very tame. Let me know when they have smashed their way into the Palace and are eating the occupants |
Are you including the corgis as the starters at that banquet? | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 15:53 - Jun 2 with 687 views | lowhouseblue |
it just gets worse and worse. poor prince andrew has come down with covid and has to miss all the jubilee events. what rotten luck. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 15:54 - Jun 2 with 682 views | Ryorry |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 12:49 - Jun 2 by Darth_Koont |
True but that pre-supposes that the “middle grounders” are potential allies. In the cases of previous protests through the years (civil rights, apartheid, women’s rights, gay rights, the environment etc.), I can’t think of any situation where the middle-grounders have helped by not just picking a side.
So it always comes back to awareness of the underlying issue and not the style of protest. |
" I can’t think of any situation where the middle-grounders have helped by not just picking a side."
Not sure if I've understood your grammar correctly, but here's just a few instances for starters where "middle-grounders" certainly have helped influence decisions and/or change the law -
The Suffragettes, Greenham Common, the environmental movement generally, anti-fracking. |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 15:56 - Jun 2 with 682 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 12:42 - Jun 2 by ZXBlue |
No it based on people spoiling a one off event that many people are very excited about.
There is causing disruption, and there is being obnoxious and spoiling special occasions for other human beings. |
….who need charging with ‘assault by plastic Union Jack.’ |  |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 16:06 - Jun 2 with 662 views | Ftnfwest |
Who cares? They’ll be pony trekking in the dordogne next week anyway. |  | | |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 16:28 - Jun 2 with 640 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 15:54 - Jun 2 by Ryorry |
" I can’t think of any situation where the middle-grounders have helped by not just picking a side."
Not sure if I've understood your grammar correctly, but here's just a few instances for starters where "middle-grounders" certainly have helped influence decisions and/or change the law -
The Suffragettes, Greenham Common, the environmental movement generally, anti-fracking. |
Not sure that the Suffragettes or the Greenham Common women concentrated on swaying the public as much as disruption. And of course with the environment we have Extinction Rebellion now and Greenpeace before who are/were heavy on action.
Of course, there are other channels that are also being used but without the headline actions then I don’t think there’d have been the awareness or sense of urgency to get people to act.
For example, Insulate Britain has been around for a while and went through all the acceptable channels and forms of protest to no avail. In many ways, direct action is the proof that things have been too long ignored. | |
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| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 16:34 - Jun 2 with 626 views | cressi |
| Do you approve or disapprove of the direct action protest on the Mall? on 13:27 - Jun 2 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
It’s also always worth remembering that someone like Martin Luther King, who is often now held up as an exemplar of the right way of protesting, was seen by the majority as a troublemaker and causer of riots. Even at the time of his death.
And in fact it was the riots after his death that really put the Civil Rights Act on the agenda. |
Although I'm not a royalist there actions are not for me irrespective of your views |  | | |
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