| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? 12:09 - Jul 7 with 7477 views | GlasgowBlue |
He’s fooled us all again hasn’t he? |  |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:50 - Jul 8 with 627 views | unbelievablue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:45 - Jul 8 by STYG |
The bit that I could never quite get my head round in the whole period of accusations is that there is clear evidence going back decades of support by Corbyn for women, black people, gay people, transgender people, muslims, the elderly ....
He just comes across as this wonderful man who accepts absolutely everybody (to the point where a lot of black youths who hated all politicians and thought they were totally out of touch, actually embraced Corbyn) without prejudice, supporting and championing them all.
Except Jews. A group famously persecuted. Who according to some he hates. WTF?
I get that he may not have acted upon stuff he should have done, but how could a man so famous for being a champion for all humanity who has done all this tireless work to help so many and believe that we are all equal, then actively prejudice against this particular group. Makes zero sense. |
Someone will articulate this better than I did earlier/will here, but there is an unfortunate history of anti-Semitism among *some* on the far left, some of which has its roots in early 19th century post-Hegelian 'Internationalism'. Marx wrote some pretty anti-Semitic things. So did Bakunin. These were the fathers of Socialism, but they repeated and played upon tropes about Jews - money-makers, capitalists, thus = oppressors.
The working assumption among many is that JC, who is undoubtedly a champion of the working classes and the marginalised, makes an exception for Jews, whom he broadly considers an enemy as part of the Capitalist elite. |  |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:50 - Jul 8 with 619 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:35 - Jul 8 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Oh I’m the “clown” eh.
The report literally acknowledges un-investigated complaints (some within its own party) of anti semitism swept under the rug. Go ahead and defend that culture if you like though. |
I know!
They then made a Panorama where a few of these people were portrayed as guiltless whistleblowers.
If you want to talk about the details of this scandal, then I’m with you all the way. |  |
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| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 14:52 - Jul 8 with 600 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
Some of us are more easily fooled than others.
Some of us, for example, preferred Trump ahead of Ms Clinton... |  |
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| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 14:54 - Jul 8 with 595 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 14:39 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont |
I said tolerance from the leadership.
There was tolerance and certainly failure to deal with antisemitism complaints within the party machine and that’s backed up by the Labour leaks too. |
Boom!
We got there in the end.
“ Our investigation has identified serious failings in LEADERSHIP and an inadequate process for handling antisemitism complaints across the Labour Party”
So he WAS incompetent. |  | | |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:56 - Jul 8 with 582 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:50 - Jul 8 by unbelievablue |
Someone will articulate this better than I did earlier/will here, but there is an unfortunate history of anti-Semitism among *some* on the far left, some of which has its roots in early 19th century post-Hegelian 'Internationalism'. Marx wrote some pretty anti-Semitic things. So did Bakunin. These were the fathers of Socialism, but they repeated and played upon tropes about Jews - money-makers, capitalists, thus = oppressors.
The working assumption among many is that JC, who is undoubtedly a champion of the working classes and the marginalised, makes an exception for Jews, whom he broadly considers an enemy as part of the Capitalist elite. |
Based on that, all parties and ideologies are antisemitic given how rife antisemitism was last century and before that.
There are any number of liberal and conservative forefathers who were antisemitic. It’s a product of antiquated thinking then and now. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:59 - Jul 8 with 567 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:45 - Jul 8 by STYG |
The bit that I could never quite get my head round in the whole period of accusations is that there is clear evidence going back decades of support by Corbyn for women, black people, gay people, transgender people, muslims, the elderly ....
He just comes across as this wonderful man who accepts absolutely everybody (to the point where a lot of black youths who hated all politicians and thought they were totally out of touch, actually embraced Corbyn) without prejudice, supporting and championing them all.
Except Jews. A group famously persecuted. Who according to some he hates. WTF?
I get that he may not have acted upon stuff he should have done, but how could a man so famous for being a champion for all humanity who has done all this tireless work to help so many and believe that we are all equal, then actively prejudice against this particular group. Makes zero sense. |
Israel?
Two of my best friends in the world are Jewish used to live here now back in London. They have found themselves in various situations over the years questioned on international foreign policy, basically being asked to attempt to defend a states (too which neither of them hold a passport) actions based on their own religion/race. |  | | |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:00 - Jul 8 with 561 views | unbelievablue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:56 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont |
Based on that, all parties and ideologies are antisemitic given how rife antisemitism was last century and before that.
There are any number of liberal and conservative forefathers who were antisemitic. It’s a product of antiquated thinking then and now. |
Kind of, but not exactly. It's the second paragraph there which people point to...that some on the far left have carried those tropes through to present day and perpetuate them now. That is the only feasible root cause of any anti-Semitism JC would harbour.
EDIT - that and Israel, sorry, as JJJJ states. [Post edited 8 Jul 2022 15:01]
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:01 - Jul 8 with 555 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:45 - Jul 8 by STYG |
The bit that I could never quite get my head round in the whole period of accusations is that there is clear evidence going back decades of support by Corbyn for women, black people, gay people, transgender people, muslims, the elderly ....
He just comes across as this wonderful man who accepts absolutely everybody (to the point where a lot of black youths who hated all politicians and thought they were totally out of touch, actually embraced Corbyn) without prejudice, supporting and championing them all.
Except Jews. A group famously persecuted. Who according to some he hates. WTF?
I get that he may not have acted upon stuff he should have done, but how could a man so famous for being a champion for all humanity who has done all this tireless work to help so many and believe that we are all equal, then actively prejudice against this particular group. Makes zero sense. |
It does look terrible, but as noted previously it may not necessarily be his beliefs, but he enabled it either through
1-incompetence/lack of ability
2-not wanting to lose support of groups who DID express such views. | | | |
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| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 15:02 - Jul 8 with 549 views | Darth_Koont |
| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 14:54 - Jul 8 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Boom!
We got there in the end.
“ Our investigation has identified serious failings in LEADERSHIP and an inadequate process for handling antisemitism complaints across the Labour Party”
So he WAS incompetent. |
He was unable to defeat the faction who had ultimate control of the complaints process and party governance. But a lot changed for the better when Jennie Formby took charge. As the EHRC noted.
His failing to fight against the Labour establishment or ours and the press for turning a blind eye then and now? | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:03 - Jul 8 with 534 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:00 - Jul 8 by unbelievablue |
Kind of, but not exactly. It's the second paragraph there which people point to...that some on the far left have carried those tropes through to present day and perpetuate them now. That is the only feasible root cause of any anti-Semitism JC would harbour.
EDIT - that and Israel, sorry, as JJJJ states. [Post edited 8 Jul 2022 15:01]
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But where did this happen? | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:05 - Jul 8 with 525 views | unbelievablue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:03 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont |
But where did this happen? |
I'm not saying it has happened. I was responding to a post asking *why* people think JC might be an anti-Semite and trying to explain the reasons I thought people had that view. | |
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| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 15:10 - Jul 8 with 496 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Gone all quiet Joey?
 |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:14 - Jul 8 with 481 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:00 - Jul 8 by unbelievablue |
Kind of, but not exactly. It's the second paragraph there which people point to...that some on the far left have carried those tropes through to present day and perpetuate them now. That is the only feasible root cause of any anti-Semitism JC would harbour.
EDIT - that and Israel, sorry, as JJJJ states. [Post edited 8 Jul 2022 15:01]
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Re: Israel, I am always told that criticizing Israel, especially as it’s one of our strategic partners alongside the even worse Saudi Arabia, is not antisemitic.
In the same way that criticising the similarly apartheid South Africa wasn’t anti-white.
But of course what I wrote there has me in the Israel apologists’ sights quicker than you can call them a bunch of fake anti-racists. | |
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| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 15:15 - Jul 8 with 477 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 14:52 - Jul 8 by Tangledupin_Blue |
Some of us are more easily fooled than others.
Some of us, for example, preferred Trump ahead of Ms Clinton... |
Indeed.
https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/415779/mea-culpa/
Always best to put up one's hands and take it on the chin. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:16 - Jul 8 with 468 views | unbelievablue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:14 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont |
Re: Israel, I am always told that criticizing Israel, especially as it’s one of our strategic partners alongside the even worse Saudi Arabia, is not antisemitic.
In the same way that criticising the similarly apartheid South Africa wasn’t anti-white.
But of course what I wrote there has me in the Israel apologists’ sights quicker than you can call them a bunch of fake anti-racists. |
Well quite.
As JJJJ said about his Jewish friends who are challenged about Israel in spite of having naff all to do with it..it is of course possible to tip over into anti-Semitism from an original position of anti-Israel. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:18 - Jul 8 with 466 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:50 - Jul 8 by unbelievablue |
Someone will articulate this better than I did earlier/will here, but there is an unfortunate history of anti-Semitism among *some* on the far left, some of which has its roots in early 19th century post-Hegelian 'Internationalism'. Marx wrote some pretty anti-Semitic things. So did Bakunin. These were the fathers of Socialism, but they repeated and played upon tropes about Jews - money-makers, capitalists, thus = oppressors.
The working assumption among many is that JC, who is undoubtedly a champion of the working classes and the marginalised, makes an exception for Jews, whom he broadly considers an enemy as part of the Capitalist elite. |
Deborah Lipstadt puts your last para very well.
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/trump-corbyn-and-the-return-of-the-ol
"When someone like Corbyn sees a Jew, they see someone who is white, someone who wealthy, someone who is powerful. Therefore [they believe] that person cannot be a victim of prejudice.
"On top of that there is a second layer. Corbyn is always talking about how his mother was at Cable Street [referring to a famous 1936 street battle between left-wing demonstrators and British fascists]. What he is saying is that 'I absorbed liberal values with my mother's milk, so it is impossible to claim that I could be prejudiced.'
"Therefore if you can't be a victim and I can't be prejudiced, then you must have an ulterior motive [for your claims]; you want to harm the Labour Party, you support Israel. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:18 - Jul 8 with 463 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:05 - Jul 8 by unbelievablue |
I'm not saying it has happened. I was responding to a post asking *why* people think JC might be an anti-Semite and trying to explain the reasons I thought people had that view. |
Because they want to believe it. And it suits them politically. Let’s not beat around the bush.
There’s a stronger case for the sunny uplands of Brexit than there is for Corbyn to be a racist – but either way people will believe what they want to believe. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:20 - Jul 8 with 462 views | unbelievablue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:18 - Jul 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Deborah Lipstadt puts your last para very well.
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/trump-corbyn-and-the-return-of-the-ol
"When someone like Corbyn sees a Jew, they see someone who is white, someone who wealthy, someone who is powerful. Therefore [they believe] that person cannot be a victim of prejudice.
"On top of that there is a second layer. Corbyn is always talking about how his mother was at Cable Street [referring to a famous 1936 street battle between left-wing demonstrators and British fascists]. What he is saying is that 'I absorbed liberal values with my mother's milk, so it is impossible to claim that I could be prejudiced.'
"Therefore if you can't be a victim and I can't be prejudiced, then you must have an ulterior motive [for your claims]; you want to harm the Labour Party, you support Israel. |
Yes, that's partly it (though it doesn't bring to mind the anti-Semitism within some of the origins of Socialism).
FWIW my paragraph does not reflect *my* position on JC. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:26 - Jul 8 with 448 views | leitrimblue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 14:19 - Jul 8 by giant_stow |
...Or he may believe Corbyn to be racist, but be unable to prove it. |
Wouldn't that suggest that from a legal point of view he as absolutely no proof of Corbyn acting in any kinda racist manner? |  | | |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:27 - Jul 8 with 445 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:18 - Jul 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Deborah Lipstadt puts your last para very well.
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/trump-corbyn-and-the-return-of-the-ol
"When someone like Corbyn sees a Jew, they see someone who is white, someone who wealthy, someone who is powerful. Therefore [they believe] that person cannot be a victim of prejudice.
"On top of that there is a second layer. Corbyn is always talking about how his mother was at Cable Street [referring to a famous 1936 street battle between left-wing demonstrators and British fascists]. What he is saying is that 'I absorbed liberal values with my mother's milk, so it is impossible to claim that I could be prejudiced.'
"Therefore if you can't be a victim and I can't be prejudiced, then you must have an ulterior motive [for your claims]; you want to harm the Labour Party, you support Israel. |
I’d challenge Lipstadt to back that up with any supporting evidence.
The situation is different for most white Jews than black people because of their whiteness. Which can let them avoid the same casual day-to-day racism and long-term marginalisation. But that “whiteness” is far more dangerously turned into the enemy within which means they are targeted as in Nazi Germany or indeed by backward people like Orban in Hungary today.
So different risks and dangers. But if you’re looking out for minorities as a whole and looking to raise society for all, there is no way Jews are excluded from that. Not by Corbyn, and not by the many socialist and social democratic Jews either. | |
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| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 15:27 - Jul 8 with 445 views | mylittletown |
| Ever Get the Feeling You've Been Cheated? on 13:01 - Jul 7 by Mach_foreignBlue |
He is and so are most of the politicals. Right wing or left wing they are as bad as each other. All about power and their interests for them. |
That attitude is exactly how people like him get into power. They are not all the same.
They may all want power, but they are not all completely cynical and dishonest in how they achieve it. |  | | |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:34 - Jul 8 with 418 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:26 - Jul 8 by leitrimblue |
Wouldn't that suggest that from a legal point of view he as absolutely no proof of Corbyn acting in any kinda racist manner? |
Othering two British Jews is pretty racist in my opinion.
“clearly have two problems. One is they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either … So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with.”
Imagine saying that about members of any other BAME community?
Bloody right wing Tories smearing Corbyn again | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:39 - Jul 8 with 396 views | Darth_Koont |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:34 - Jul 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Othering two British Jews is pretty racist in my opinion.
“clearly have two problems. One is they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either … So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with.”
Imagine saying that about members of any other BAME community?
Bloody right wing Tories smearing Corbyn again |
Bad faith is a powerful tool in politics and the media.
Doesn’t excuse it though. | |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:40 - Jul 8 with 394 views | giant_stow |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:26 - Jul 8 by leitrimblue |
Wouldn't that suggest that from a legal point of view he as absolutely no proof of Corbyn acting in any kinda racist manner? |
Not necessarily - he may not have *enough* proof. Or not enough proof which could be admissible in a legal setting, but utterly convincing as a private citizen, for example. |  |
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| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:42 - Jul 8 with 386 views | leitrimblue |
| I actually reckon he might be a good PM..... on 15:34 - Jul 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Othering two British Jews is pretty racist in my opinion.
“clearly have two problems. One is they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either … So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with.”
Imagine saying that about members of any other BAME community?
Bloody right wing Tories smearing Corbyn again |
So your in the camp that believes that the esteemed barrister Keir Starmer is just turning a blind eye to Corbyns blatant racism for the good of the party? | | | |
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