| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) 10:04 - Nov 23 with 4910 views | Keno |
I wonder if she will be appealing? [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 10:04]
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:19 - Nov 23 with 1744 views | XYZ |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 10:39 - Nov 23 by homer_123 |
Was that the question?
I thought it was stay in the UK, therefore, if the UK decides to leave the EU so be it? |
That was the fact.
They would now be leaving a different place - that's the brexiteers argument isn't it? |  | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:21 - Nov 23 with 1742 views | Pinewoodblue |
It was supposed to be a once in a life time event. Unrealistic would have better to say no further referendum for a specified period of time. Had it been set at 10 years there could have been another go in 2024. |  |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:25 - Nov 23 with 1726 views | Keno |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:21 - Nov 23 by Pinewoodblue |
It was supposed to be a once in a life time event. Unrealistic would have better to say no further referendum for a specified period of time. Had it been set at 10 years there could have been another go in 2024. |
Define lifetime tho??
it could mean the lifetime of a Tory PM | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:29 - Nov 23 with 1712 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:12 - Nov 23 by BlueBadger |
I'm not sure that wanting to be the next Albania is a particularly ambitious target... |
The Czech Republic is probably a better example. Even better is an English-speaking country like Ireland, which has attracted many US multi-nationals. I am not saying things will be easy but as it is, it appears to be a case of managed decline (with no real control) as part of an ever-declining UK. [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 11:32]
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 11:32 - Nov 23 with 1706 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 10:39 - Nov 23 by homer_123 |
Was that the question?
I thought it was stay in the UK, therefore, if the UK decides to leave the EU so be it? |
A very big point during the referendum was that the only way to guarantee Scotland's presence in the EU was to vote no. Don't forget all the scare stories saying the EU wouldn't accept an independent Scotland. | | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 12:34 - Nov 23 with 1658 views | Darth_Koont |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 10:53 - Nov 23 by BlueBadger |
Scexit is built on pretty much the same lies as Brexit. |
Only if you’re a hot-take simpleton … |  |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 12:41 - Nov 23 with 1654 views | Darth_Koont |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 10:18 - Nov 23 by bluelagos |
Know yer place Koonters. It's Westminster's decision whether you get to determine your own future, so pipe down and shut it. |
Haha! Indeed.
But I think independence is largely driven by the Scots being more and more aware of that place in the Westminster system. For example, the big shift was in response to New Labour not in spite of it. | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 12:41 - Nov 23 with 1648 views | MattinLondon |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 10:39 - Nov 23 by homer_123 |
Was that the question?
I thought it was stay in the UK, therefore, if the UK decides to leave the EU so be it? |
Back then I don’t think that a lot of people thought that the UK would be so stupid to leave the EU. But it did and that has added to the independence movement. |  | | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 12:49 - Nov 23 with 1633 views | Darth_Koont |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 10:37 - Nov 23 by bluelagos |
Brexit rather undermined that argument.
Material change of what was on offer to stay with the UK. People voted to remain in a UK that was part of the EU. Since then a majority of Scots voted to remain with the EU yet they were still forced (as part of the UK) to leave.
Otherwise, I think that argument (of waiting a generation) would be valid. |
Indeed
The combination of staying in the UK but out of the EU is probably the worst of both worlds for Scotland that absolutely needs Freedom of Movement to re-vitalise and diversify the economy.
Every single one of our neighbours is doing better economically and socially as sovereign nations within the EU (or at least with full access to the single market like Norway). If anyone wants to address that and say what the Union gives Scotland in return then I’m all ears. | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:33 - Nov 23 with 1594 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 12:41 - Nov 23 by Darth_Koont |
Haha! Indeed.
But I think independence is largely driven by the Scots being more and more aware of that place in the Westminster system. For example, the big shift was in response to New Labour not in spite of it. |
And yet recorded polling shows that 52% supported independence in 1998, but had dropped to 40% in 2009. I can’t find any data on 2010 but 2011 this had dropped as low as 28% and it was only in 2014 that it consistently went back above 40%. So very much the opposite of your claim, unsurprisingly |  |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:39 - Nov 23 with 1575 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:33 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
And yet recorded polling shows that 52% supported independence in 1998, but had dropped to 40% in 2009. I can’t find any data on 2010 but 2011 this had dropped as low as 28% and it was only in 2014 that it consistently went back above 40%. So very much the opposite of your claim, unsurprisingly |
I think this can be explained by the existence of the Scottish Parliament which in its early years took away some of the fervour for independence. The Labour Party was also doing well in Scotland in those early years. | | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:43 - Nov 23 with 1568 views | blueasfook |
I believe many Scots are fed up of Sturgeon and her nationalistic sabre-rattling. |  |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:50 - Nov 23 with 1546 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:43 - Nov 23 by blueasfook |
I believe many Scots are fed up of Sturgeon and her nationalistic sabre-rattling. |
I think this is true of those who are Unionists. But then again, when did supporters of one party support another party. As I have said on this or another thread, I think Scotland will not get a majority for independence until the older, more Unionist population is no longer with us. | | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:51 - Nov 23 with 1537 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:39 - Nov 23 by DJR |
I think this can be explained by the existence of the Scottish Parliament which in its early years took away some of the fervour for independence. The Labour Party was also doing well in Scotland in those early years. |
The Labour Party did well in Scotland pretty much throughout the period of New Labour, their share of the vote in the last GE prior (1992) was 39% compared to 42% in 2010. That hasn’t stopped DK repeatedly claiming that New Labour lost Scotland, similar to the claim about independence support in this thread | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 14:04 - Nov 23 with 1516 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:51 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The Labour Party did well in Scotland pretty much throughout the period of New Labour, their share of the vote in the last GE prior (1992) was 39% compared to 42% in 2010. That hasn’t stopped DK repeatedly claiming that New Labour lost Scotland, similar to the claim about independence support in this thread |
Something did change in Scotland for Labour at some stage because it lost virtually all its Westminster seats. I can't really comment as I don't live there but the impression I got was that it was a combination of Labour siding with the Tories over independence, as well as not being that different on austerity. | | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 14:15 - Nov 23 with 1485 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 14:04 - Nov 23 by DJR |
Something did change in Scotland for Labour at some stage because it lost virtually all its Westminster seats. I can't really comment as I don't live there but the impression I got was that it was a combination of Labour siding with the Tories over independence, as well as not being that different on austerity. |
Yes, they lost 40 seats in 2015, 5 years after the end of New Labour and the previous election where Labour had actually gained votes, vote share and seats in Scotland… | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 17:43 - Nov 23 with 1402 views | Darth_Koont |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 13:51 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The Labour Party did well in Scotland pretty much throughout the period of New Labour, their share of the vote in the last GE prior (1992) was 39% compared to 42% in 2010. That hasn’t stopped DK repeatedly claiming that New Labour lost Scotland, similar to the claim about independence support in this thread |
They did. The GE had always been reduced to a binary red v blue choice where the SNP didn’t have anything like the same sway. Until 2015 and Labour were spanked for their status quo position.
But the Labour vote had already eroded before then if you look at Scottish election results.
You keep repeating this stuff. And I have no idea why you struggle so much to understand it. | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 18:53 - Nov 23 with 1369 views | HARRY10 |
As someone with ttish father (Catholic) I visit Glasgow regurlarly, or did until the pandemic.
What I became acutely aware of was much is driven by anti English guff. Much is amnifest by pro IRA stuff
There is also some weird view that the English are anti Scottish, whereas the opposite is the truth Ptretty much all the failings are blamed on the English. Whereas the heavy indistries that have gone are the same that England and Wales have lost.
i di point out that Alec Salmonds nonsense about Scotland being the new Saudi Arabia would have bankrupted them by 2016 when the oil price plunged. A bizarre reposte to this is
"ewes you have taken it all"
Not sure how much I received or anyone I know in England have. But it does allow the SNP to portray themaselves as embattled martyrs against the auld foe.
The practicalities of independence as with Brexit are buried beneath flag waving, painting your face blue and muttering the words of a bigoted Australian, in a film as historical accurate as the 1950s TV series Robin Hood. I did point out that for all their cheering of Braveheart those events took place hundreds of years ago our relatives came to Scotland after the first world war. Which also rather knocks the twaddle about the royal family being German.
And the idea of joining the EU is absurd given the logistics, never mind that Spain would veto the application (Basque separatists), as would others.
Scottish Independence has fired up the Brexit mentality, hence the constant bleats of 'project fear' though the 2016 oil price collapse did quieten things down there a bit.
However, I am rather reminded of the words of PG Wodehouse
“It is never difficult to distinguish between with a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.” | | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:09 - Nov 23 with 1351 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 18:53 - Nov 23 by HARRY10 |
As someone with ttish father (Catholic) I visit Glasgow regurlarly, or did until the pandemic.
What I became acutely aware of was much is driven by anti English guff. Much is amnifest by pro IRA stuff
There is also some weird view that the English are anti Scottish, whereas the opposite is the truth Ptretty much all the failings are blamed on the English. Whereas the heavy indistries that have gone are the same that England and Wales have lost.
i di point out that Alec Salmonds nonsense about Scotland being the new Saudi Arabia would have bankrupted them by 2016 when the oil price plunged. A bizarre reposte to this is
"ewes you have taken it all"
Not sure how much I received or anyone I know in England have. But it does allow the SNP to portray themaselves as embattled martyrs against the auld foe.
The practicalities of independence as with Brexit are buried beneath flag waving, painting your face blue and muttering the words of a bigoted Australian, in a film as historical accurate as the 1950s TV series Robin Hood. I did point out that for all their cheering of Braveheart those events took place hundreds of years ago our relatives came to Scotland after the first world war. Which also rather knocks the twaddle about the royal family being German.
And the idea of joining the EU is absurd given the logistics, never mind that Spain would veto the application (Basque separatists), as would others.
Scottish Independence has fired up the Brexit mentality, hence the constant bleats of 'project fear' though the 2016 oil price collapse did quieten things down there a bit.
However, I am rather reminded of the words of PG Wodehouse
“It is never difficult to distinguish between with a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.” |
That's an interesting take. I suppose the politics of Glasgow and the West Coast are influenced in particular by the large number of Irish catholics and protestants who came to the area from the late 19th century onwards. So I imagine there are many Rangers fans who are pro-British and pro-Union, whereas on the catholic side the Union is less likely to be favoured.
But I do get the impression that the SNP has managed to unite both protestants and catholic behind the cause, which can't be a bad thing.
For my own part, and speaking as someone with two Scottish protestant parents, my ideal would be for Scottish independence (along with a united Ireland).
The P G Wodehouse quote is a great one. [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 19:12]
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:14 - Nov 23 with 1341 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 17:43 - Nov 23 by Darth_Koont |
They did. The GE had always been reduced to a binary red v blue choice where the SNP didn’t have anything like the same sway. Until 2015 and Labour were spanked for their status quo position.
But the Labour vote had already eroded before then if you look at Scottish election results.
You keep repeating this stuff. And I have no idea why you struggle so much to understand it. |
The Labour vote hadn’t eroded, they had a higher share in Scotland in 2010 than they did prior to New Labour. Why are you doubling down again on this lie? | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:53 - Nov 23 with 1289 views | Darth_Koont |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:14 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The Labour vote hadn’t eroded, they had a higher share in Scotland in 2010 than they did prior to New Labour. Why are you doubling down again on this lie? |
Yes. In what was still seen as a two-horse race. The Scottish elections show more what was going on behind that.
I know you don’t like it but Labour lost Scotland because they weren’t providing an answer. The empty posturing of their pro-Union stance was a final nail and nowhere near the start of this. | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:57 - Nov 23 with 1276 views | DJR |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:14 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The Labour vote hadn’t eroded, they had a higher share in Scotland in 2010 than they did prior to New Labour. Why are you doubling down again on this lie? |
I think the point being made is that the SNP first got a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament in 2007 when it formed a minority government, and from 2011 onwards formed the government with or without Green support.
I think initally people sometimes voted differently in Scottish Parliament election and UK elections, but that ceased to be the case from 2015 onwards. | | | |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 21:14 - Nov 23 with 1224 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 19:53 - Nov 23 by Darth_Koont |
Yes. In what was still seen as a two-horse race. The Scottish elections show more what was going on behind that.
I know you don’t like it but Labour lost Scotland because they weren’t providing an answer. The empty posturing of their pro-Union stance was a final nail and nowhere near the start of this. |
The two horse race point is nonsense, the SNP received 21.5% of the vote in 1992 which wasn’t far shy of the Tories with 25.6%, the Tories being the second largest in terms of share
You’ve also claimed the Scottish Parliament point before but again the data doesn’t really ring true, as whilst the share did erode a bit from the Labour high point when the Parliament was formed it has still largely held up in both 2009 and 2011. It was only in 2015 that Labours share dropped dramatically by nearly 10% - by far the largest election-on-election drop. New Labour were of course no longer a thing between 2011 and 2015
Further to my thoughts that... by C_HealyIsAPleasure 16 May 2022 16:01It wasn’t inaccurate, it was a lie as you’ve posted similar before and continue to do so despite it being repeatedly pointed out that it’s false. No doubt you’ll do the same again
A quick glance at the other elections you cite shows that to be false too, or misleading at best given the Scottish Parliament was only formed under New Labour (meaning no historical trajectory to look at). And still in both cases the vote remains in a similar ballpark throughout New Labour before crashing under subsequent administrations
The share in European elections is particularly enlightening, given it dropped a whole 3 points between 99 and 2014 before crashing from 25.9% to 9.3% under Corbyn in 2019
This data is readily available, so why do you keep posting blatant lies?
Why did you lie earlier in the thread about support for independence growing under New Labour, and why did you just repeat the lie about support for New Labour eroding in Scotland when the actual polling evidence tells a different story? | |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 21:28 - Nov 23 with 1199 views | GlasgowBlue |
| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 21:14 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The two horse race point is nonsense, the SNP received 21.5% of the vote in 1992 which wasn’t far shy of the Tories with 25.6%, the Tories being the second largest in terms of share
You’ve also claimed the Scottish Parliament point before but again the data doesn’t really ring true, as whilst the share did erode a bit from the Labour high point when the Parliament was formed it has still largely held up in both 2009 and 2011. It was only in 2015 that Labours share dropped dramatically by nearly 10% - by far the largest election-on-election drop. New Labour were of course no longer a thing between 2011 and 2015
Further to my thoughts that... by C_HealyIsAPleasure 16 May 2022 16:01It wasn’t inaccurate, it was a lie as you’ve posted similar before and continue to do so despite it being repeatedly pointed out that it’s false. No doubt you’ll do the same again
A quick glance at the other elections you cite shows that to be false too, or misleading at best given the Scottish Parliament was only formed under New Labour (meaning no historical trajectory to look at). And still in both cases the vote remains in a similar ballpark throughout New Labour before crashing under subsequent administrations
The share in European elections is particularly enlightening, given it dropped a whole 3 points between 99 and 2014 before crashing from 25.9% to 9.3% under Corbyn in 2019
This data is readily available, so why do you keep posting blatant lies?
Why did you lie earlier in the thread about support for independence growing under New Labour, and why did you just repeat the lie about support for New Labour eroding in Scotland when the actual polling evidence tells a different story? |
Because he’s a disingenuous and deeply dishonest poster. |  |
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| High Court 1 Sturgeon didnt!! (n/t) on 22:00 - Nov 23 with 1175 views | Lord_Lucan |
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