| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... 00:27 - Nov 28 with 16806 views | XYZ |
... after 25 years. Just when his program about racism (Jews don't count) was coming out.
Coincidental?
Clean hands and all that.
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:06 - Nov 28 with 2828 views | Darth_Koont |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 08:58 - Nov 28 by Cafe_Newman |
Not having a go here as I agree with what you've written but I'm interested in the often repeated soundbite:
"but it was different times back then"
I guess back then it was different times 30 years previously. And 30 years before that it was different times... you get the idea.
The thing is, we call this progress, and we generally think we've got it right at any moment but we clearly haven't because we acknowledge that Baddiel was wrong 30 years ago.
So what's to say we're not wrong about our take on events right now?
And perhaps there are cultures who are more "advanced" than us and we're the backward ones?
Or maybe we've always got it right and other cultures are always catching up with what's right - which makes us either very insightful or arrogant I suppose.
Just a querie, has anybody got a view on this? |
Oh we’re invariably late and rarely early in doing the right thing.
There’s plenty of stuff going on now in the UK and in the world that we know is morally wrong and inexcusable. But change is almost always resisted even with the strongest moral case. And that’s why progressive issues are almost always long-term struggles until a tipping point is reached. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 9:08]
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:07 - Nov 28 with 2842 views | itfcjoe |
It's not co-incidence - it's specifically addressed in the programme.
Because people just say, if he complains about racism - "well you were racist 25 years ago" - and he fully admits it, as has happened in the past, and makes a full and frank apology about it.
But it's classic whataboutism, the sort of thing you'd expect someone from GB News to post. Like when Alex Scott wears the armband and they say "well you've been on holiday to Dubai, you didn't care then" |  |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:13 - Nov 28 with 2810 views | giant_stow |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:07 - Nov 28 by itfcjoe |
It's not co-incidence - it's specifically addressed in the programme.
Because people just say, if he complains about racism - "well you were racist 25 years ago" - and he fully admits it, as has happened in the past, and makes a full and frank apology about it.
But it's classic whataboutism, the sort of thing you'd expect someone from GB News to post. Like when Alex Scott wears the armband and they say "well you've been on holiday to Dubai, you didn't care then" |
Having watched the programme now, I think you're being a little kind to him. He apologised but 25 years later for the benefit of a show he was doing in front the camera. I also wasn't wildly impressed by his 'but he did it too sir' argument re boselector - even though he had a point there, just concentrate on your own apology.
However, the thrust of his argument that Jews Don't Count was well argued. Just wish it had come from someone else really / or he'd apologised years ago, not for the benefit of the show. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 9:23]
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:19 - Nov 28 with 2798 views | itfcjoe |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:13 - Nov 28 by giant_stow |
Having watched the programme now, I think you're being a little kind to him. He apologised but 25 years later for the benefit of a show he was doing in front the camera. I also wasn't wildly impressed by his 'but he did it too sir' argument re boselector - even though he had a point there, just concentrate on your own apology.
However, the thrust of his argument that Jews Don't Count was well argued. Just wish it had come from someone else really / or he'd apologised years ago, not for the benefit of the show. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 9:23]
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He has apologised previously for it, it was wrong to have done but the fact it was on BBCs flagship show at the time shows it was totally accepted. As was the Bo Selctor thing. As was David Walliams blacking up on Little Britain. All wrong, but there wasn't a loud voice saying it at the time.
But the general point about Whatabouttery is the important one - those on the right especially love to pick holes in arguments with it - you can't care about climate change because you took a flight once, you can't care about workers rights because you own an iPhone, you can't care about LGBT rights because you went to Russia 8 years ago........bla bla bla
People are complicated, no one is perfect and it is very easy to pick fault | |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:22 - Nov 28 with 2773 views | giant_stow |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:19 - Nov 28 by itfcjoe |
He has apologised previously for it, it was wrong to have done but the fact it was on BBCs flagship show at the time shows it was totally accepted. As was the Bo Selctor thing. As was David Walliams blacking up on Little Britain. All wrong, but there wasn't a loud voice saying it at the time.
But the general point about Whatabouttery is the important one - those on the right especially love to pick holes in arguments with it - you can't care about climate change because you took a flight once, you can't care about workers rights because you own an iPhone, you can't care about LGBT rights because you went to Russia 8 years ago........bla bla bla
People are complicated, no one is perfect and it is very easy to pick fault |
The guy seemed to feel like there'd been no apology or not one he recognised at least.
Totally agree re your last point. | |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:24 - Nov 28 with 2768 views | Darth_Koont |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:07 - Nov 28 by itfcjoe |
It's not co-incidence - it's specifically addressed in the programme.
Because people just say, if he complains about racism - "well you were racist 25 years ago" - and he fully admits it, as has happened in the past, and makes a full and frank apology about it.
But it's classic whataboutism, the sort of thing you'd expect someone from GB News to post. Like when Alex Scott wears the armband and they say "well you've been on holiday to Dubai, you didn't care then" |
Although Baddiel is using it as a stick to beat progressives with and was fully a part of weaponising antisemitism in our own politics.
The result is that genuine anti-racists who recognise and fight antisemitism have been demonised and objectively more racist parties and politicians have been ushered in.
As the messenger, I think Baddiel’s personal hypocrisy stinks. There is an important core to his message that antisemitism appears in different ways compared to say the more overt racism based on the colour of people’s skin but that doesn’t mean it’s any less real. But the real-life context for Jews Don’t Count (What? Compared to today’s normalised and accepted islamophobia, anti-Roma and anti-traveller racism??!) is a little odd and self-serving for right wingers who are hardly ever called out for their own antisemitism. Johnson and Trump being cases in point. | |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:33 - Nov 28 with 2743 views | giant_stow |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:24 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
Although Baddiel is using it as a stick to beat progressives with and was fully a part of weaponising antisemitism in our own politics.
The result is that genuine anti-racists who recognise and fight antisemitism have been demonised and objectively more racist parties and politicians have been ushered in.
As the messenger, I think Baddiel’s personal hypocrisy stinks. There is an important core to his message that antisemitism appears in different ways compared to say the more overt racism based on the colour of people’s skin but that doesn’t mean it’s any less real. But the real-life context for Jews Don’t Count (What? Compared to today’s normalised and accepted islamophobia, anti-Roma and anti-traveller racism??!) is a little odd and self-serving for right wingers who are hardly ever called out for their own antisemitism. Johnson and Trump being cases in point. |
I don't think he's attacking *real* progressives - just the ones who think they are but have a problem with Jews.
I would also say that a real progressive ought to be able to handle criticism and deal with it constructively / be open to errors - I do think we all have some prejudice in us to deal with, even if it's a tiny corner of the mind for the more enlightened. | |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:35 - Nov 28 with 2739 views | Churchman |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 08:58 - Nov 28 by Cafe_Newman |
Not having a go here as I agree with what you've written but I'm interested in the often repeated soundbite:
"but it was different times back then"
I guess back then it was different times 30 years previously. And 30 years before that it was different times... you get the idea.
The thing is, we call this progress, and we generally think we've got it right at any moment but we clearly haven't because we acknowledge that Baddiel was wrong 30 years ago.
So what's to say we're not wrong about our take on events right now?
And perhaps there are cultures who are more "advanced" than us and we're the backward ones?
Or maybe we've always got it right and other cultures are always catching up with what's right - which makes us either very insightful or arrogant I suppose.
Just a querie, has anybody got a view on this? |
I think the point you make is very interesting. How people see things is very much of the time and that changes, thank goodness. I’ve no idea how the 2020s will be viewed in 2040, but you can guarantee what is acceptable and what isn’t will change. And so it should. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 11:50]
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:41 - Nov 28 with 2725 views | PhilTWTD |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 02:05 - Nov 28 by XYZ |
Is he a victim? Probably not.
Is Jason Lee a victim? Definitely.
Is David Baddiel racist? Yes
Is David Baddiel a victim of racism? No, he's a successful comedian. |
If I remember rightly, at least one of his parents had to escape Poland during the war and they lost family members to the holocaust, so of course racism has affected him. A quick glance at the responses to some of his Twitter posts shows that he is a victim of racist abuse.
None of which excuses the Jason Lee abuse, which was bullying as much as it was racist. Mocking dreadlocks and blacking up probably felt less so in the context of the early nineties, same with Ali G, although discussions on whether that character was racist were quite prevalent. |  | | |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:46 - Nov 28 with 2704 views | itfcjoe |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:41 - Nov 28 by PhilTWTD |
If I remember rightly, at least one of his parents had to escape Poland during the war and they lost family members to the holocaust, so of course racism has affected him. A quick glance at the responses to some of his Twitter posts shows that he is a victim of racist abuse.
None of which excuses the Jason Lee abuse, which was bullying as much as it was racist. Mocking dreadlocks and blacking up probably felt less so in the context of the early nineties, same with Ali G, although discussions on whether that character was racist were quite prevalent. |
His Mother was born in Nazi Germany and a large number of his family were killed in the Holocaust.
I think that was one of the points he was making - that those Jews are who are alive today all had parents and grandparents or their relations in the Holocaust, it isn't something that happened 500 years ago; it is something that affects them all to this day through lived experiences | |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:49 - Nov 28 with 2691 views | Darth_Koont |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:33 - Nov 28 by giant_stow |
I don't think he's attacking *real* progressives - just the ones who think they are but have a problem with Jews.
I would also say that a real progressive ought to be able to handle criticism and deal with it constructively / be open to errors - I do think we all have some prejudice in us to deal with, even if it's a tiny corner of the mind for the more enlightened. |
“I don't think he's attacking *real* progressives - just the ones who think they are but have a problem with Jews.”
Who is that then? | |
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| That last line…. on 09:50 - Nov 28 with 2682 views | Bloots |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 02:05 - Nov 28 by XYZ |
Is he a victim? Probably not.
Is Jason Lee a victim? Definitely.
Is David Baddiel racist? Yes
Is David Baddiel a victim of racism? No, he's a successful comedian. |
….is a terrible take.
Blimey. |  |
| "He's been a really positive influence on my life, I think he's a great man" - TWTD User (May 2025) |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:59 - Nov 28 with 2644 views | giant_stow |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:49 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
“I don't think he's attacking *real* progressives - just the ones who think they are but have a problem with Jews.”
Who is that then? |
In the public eye, people like Chris Williamson. Or less well known, the bods on my local facebook groups that seem to hate the Tories and hold British jews responsible for Israel. | |
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| That last line…. on 10:03 - Nov 28 with 2629 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| That last line…. on 09:50 - Nov 28 by Bloots |
….is a terrible take.
Blimey. |
And seems to completely ignore that Jason Lee was a successful footballer. |  |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 10:11 - Nov 28 with 2609 views | Darth_Koont |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:59 - Nov 28 by giant_stow |
In the public eye, people like Chris Williamson. Or less well known, the bods on my local facebook groups that seem to hate the Tories and hold British jews responsible for Israel. |
What is Chris Williamson’s “problem with Jews”? Or at least how has that manifested itself in the way Baddiel describes? Just so we’re clear.
Anyone who “holds British Jews responsible for Israel” is an idiot. If you mean being critical of the Israel apartheid apologists who lead the British Board of Deputies, say, or who push the shonky IHRA examples that marginalise and deny the Palestinians own lived experience then that’s something else. | |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 10:16 - Nov 28 with 2594 views | LankHenners |
Away from some of the bizarre comments on the thread, it's hard not to be a little bit cynical about the timing of it given it would surely severely undermine his central point that racism against Jews in particular goes accepted and unchallenged if he didn't front up to his own, particularly nasty, racism properly.
To be honest, whilst he's been a very important campaigner against antisemitism, it's never sat that well with me that he's often been held up as a pillar of anti-racism seeing as what he did would very probably be investigated as a hate crime if he did it today, and that he rarely addressed it other than to say 'other people were racist, go and shout at them, leave me alone'.
You could have the conversation all day about what aspects of British comedy from that era (and even as recently as something like Come Fly With Me which was, what, a decade or so ago?) were genuinely awful or just from a time when no-one knew any better but I do struggle to see how targeted racial abuse of a specific person on national TV was ever seen as ok by anybody. |  |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 10:55 - Nov 28 with 2520 views | Cafe_Newman |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 09:35 - Nov 28 by Churchman |
I think the point you make is very interesting. How people see things is very much of the time and that changes, thank goodness. I’ve no idea how the 2020s will be viewed in 2040, but you can guarantee what is acceptable and what isn’t will change. And so it should. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 11:50]
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Interesting comment.
Again, I'm trying to make sense of this.
To my mind I'm uncomfortable with "flexible morals" but fully appreciate that ethics change over time.
Culture/society driven ethics invariably shape our morals though.
I'm not sure what's right here.
Should we change our morals?
Should we be so flexible with our ethics? |  | | |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 11:14 - Nov 28 with 2490 views | IP4_Blue |
Funnily enough I watched this last week on youtube, was really interesting. Cannot believe it's been 25 years since Baddiel has apologised to Lee face to face. You can clearly see it has effected Lee and his young children. Crazy how it was allowed to go on, like others like Little Britain | | | |
| Meanwhile, serial c-Unit Leigh Francis on 11:43 - Nov 28 with 2448 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 11:14 - Nov 28 by IP4_Blue |
Funnily enough I watched this last week on youtube, was really interesting. Cannot believe it's been 25 years since Baddiel has apologised to Lee face to face. You can clearly see it has effected Lee and his young children. Crazy how it was allowed to go on, like others like Little Britain |
Says, Craig David should just stop talking about it.
https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/leigh-francis-craig-david-bo-selecta-feud-kei |  |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 12:00 - Nov 28 with 2395 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
FWIW I watched it and thought it very good and v interesting.
I think for Baddiel he does own those mistakes and it came across to me that he feels genuine and real shame for his depictions of Jason Lee. He has apologised many times for it and admits that personal apology to Jason was far too late and that he has avoided it due to that sense of shame.
I thought the show (I've not read the book) was well reasoned and well argued.
I'd recommend everyone give it a watch
Further is DB racist? No. He made a mistake, a very ill judged one that caused hurt far beyond just Jason Lee I'm sure we all mad mistakes in our youth. We grow as people over time, some for better some for worse.
Has DB been a vicrim of racism? Almost certainly, as I am sure almost everyone from a minority background sadly has.
Should we stop talking about his past? No. I think he would agree that you can't and shouldn't because it's a good conversation that hopefully will result in some people learning and becoming better people. |  |
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| Meanwhile, serial c-Unit Leigh Francis on 12:00 - Nov 28 with 2397 views | IP4_Blue |
He completely ruined Craig David and took it too far, he has every right to still feel angry about it. Leigh Franis apologises and he expects David to forget about it. I know this is not the same but it's like Jamie Carragher apologising about the Suarez racism with Evra, took years to apologise for them wearing them t-shirts when they knew Suarez was guilty | | | |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 12:01 - Nov 28 with 2391 views | eireblue |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 10:55 - Nov 28 by Cafe_Newman |
Interesting comment.
Again, I'm trying to make sense of this.
To my mind I'm uncomfortable with "flexible morals" but fully appreciate that ethics change over time.
Culture/society driven ethics invariably shape our morals though.
I'm not sure what's right here.
Should we change our morals?
Should we be so flexible with our ethics? |
Moral and ethics don’t change. What people do and is seen as acceptable by a majority, or entity that is powerful enough is different.
Two experiments are interesting and possible relevant about humans. One is the Smokey room experiment, humans even in very uncomfortable circumstances will not act.
The second was a set of questions based on making moral questions, across many different cultures, along the lines of, there is a run away train, it will smash up your very expensive car, or you can flick a switch and it will kill a peado/baby/old person with days to live etc…I believe canoes were used for tribes that didÅ„t know what a train was.
Humans had very high degree of correlation on what was considered the right thing to do.
Trouble is humans will not necessarily speak out.
Just take the ridiculous position of women. They have the vote, as an example, and can choose things like going to school and what clothes to wear. That is something that has changed in Europe and not changed in other places.
Was it morally or ethically correct to subject women to a form of oppression. No, it never was. It just was done. Was it ever correct to assume and make jokes about Irish people being stupid. No.
There is still, and this seems the case for the OP, the “sticks and stones vs names” view of racism.
I am hoping people who hold that view are the ones that start to feel uncomfortable in a smokey room, to stretch the experiment into a tortuous analogy.
So I don’t think ethics change over time, in the context of this debate, it is getting a bit harder to repress and demonise people. But as we see in Qatar, perfectly possible. |  | | |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 12:08 - Nov 28 with 2373 views | usm |
None of us are truly 'clean' - or at least very very few of us - other than a few on here of course.
And these are very different times. Anyway wasnt it his hair style that the joke was about? Can hairstyles now be deemed racist?
I used to get called Dougal, after the dog in The Magic Roundabout. Ive never got over it.
Who do I sue? |  |
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| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 12:43 - Nov 28 with 2304 views | Illinoisblue |
| David Baddiel has finally apologised for his racism to Jason Lee ... on 12:08 - Nov 28 by usm |
None of us are truly 'clean' - or at least very very few of us - other than a few on here of course.
And these are very different times. Anyway wasnt it his hair style that the joke was about? Can hairstyles now be deemed racist?
I used to get called Dougal, after the dog in The Magic Roundabout. Ive never got over it.
Who do I sue? |
I should look it up, but wonder what Frank Skinner thought of black face then, and what he thinks now. |  |
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