| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week 04:57 - May 24 with 41936 views | The_Romford_Blue |
1,000 Animal Rising protesters turning up to ruin the Derby at Epsom. Track has applied for an injunction to ban them or they’ll ruin it but even if they get the injunction (unlikely I’d imagine), it’ll be a nightmare stopping them with Epsom’s course layout. Epsom, unlike Aintree, is an open track and getting on to ruin it will not be that difficult unfortunately. It’s part of a public footpath when racing isn’t on to the side of the course so can be accessed if people want to quite easily. They’ve specifically said today in writing and in a meeting with the course that they plan to turn up and ruin both days by sitting on the track.
So that’ll be another sporting event I’m in attendance that these tw*ts ruin. That’s if I even get there with the now added train strike announced conveniently three days ago. Two days off work, train tickets, race day tickets at £140 a pop per day and it’ll probably end up cancelled anyway because it’s 2023 and nothing I like doing goes without someone sitting in the way trying to ruin it.
I doubt TWTD is the place to moan about this though as, like with the Snooker World Championship last month, the racing isn’t something the majority on here enjoy so it’s ok. They’ll no doubt target a town game soon just to really make me despise them. Protest for protest sake. There’s always something someone somewhere disagrees with and will then protest about and attempt to ruin.
What a depressing time to be a human being. [Post edited 24 May 2023 5:03]
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 14:39 - May 27 with 2942 views | J2BLUE |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 14:33 - May 27 by NeedhamChris |
And I think you're looking for reasons to defend him. All I'm saying is that all of Rommys examples of kindness are areas he is involved in. That's fair enough, he's the one using them as justification for not being a bad person whilst supporting horse racing.
The post that J2 picked at then ended with;
"I think you're completely wrong on this and I think horse racing is cruel. That's my view though - I also think you're most likely a good person. The two aren't mutually exclusive"
Also have a look at my first 3/4 posts on this thread, nothing personal there. But Rommys approach of doubling down, happily saying he'd smack the c***s and saying they should all be locked up is hardly going to de-escalate a row is it? |
All I'm saying is that all of Rommys examples of kindness are areas he is involved in
It's just not a legitimate criticism though. It's an odd thing to mention. How many people do something nice completely at random without at least having some interest in it?
Anyway, you're not a bad poster. I have no problem with you. I'm off to sit in the sun with a book and a beer. Have a good one all. |  |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 14:43 - May 27 with 2919 views | NeedhamChris |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 14:39 - May 27 by J2BLUE |
All I'm saying is that all of Rommys examples of kindness are areas he is involved in
It's just not a legitimate criticism though. It's an odd thing to mention. How many people do something nice completely at random without at least having some interest in it?
Anyway, you're not a bad poster. I have no problem with you. I'm off to sit in the sun with a book and a beer. Have a good one all. |
That's fair - I don't think it is a particularly legitimate defence either but agree I'm leaving the horse racing issue behind with that.
Sounds a good idea to me and shall do the same!
Rommy - hope whatever happens you have a good weekend and also that all the horses get through it safely. |  |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 15:20 - May 27 with 2884 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 14:33 - May 27 by NeedhamChris |
And I think you're looking for reasons to defend him. All I'm saying is that all of Rommys examples of kindness are areas he is involved in. That's fair enough, he's the one using them as justification for not being a bad person whilst supporting horse racing.
The post that J2 picked at then ended with;
"I think you're completely wrong on this and I think horse racing is cruel. That's my view though - I also think you're most likely a good person. The two aren't mutually exclusive"
Also have a look at my first 3/4 posts on this thread, nothing personal there. But Rommys approach of doubling down, happily saying he'd smack the c***s and saying they should all be locked up is hardly going to de-escalate a row is it? |
In all the years he's been posting on here, I've never once seen Rommy bully, belittle, bait, harrass or downright deliberately lie about another poster to try and discredit them.
Unlike a few other posters on here, including on this thread. Says a lot, I think. |  |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:07 - May 27 with 2829 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 13:36 - May 27 by bluelagos |
So you don't approve of the suffragettes' actions?
I guess you'd also object to the civil rights marchers who sat down and blocked bridges in 1950/60s America?
And those pesky ANC folk who failed to convince the architects of apartheid to allow the back population equal rights?
Maybe we would have given women the vote anyway but I have nil problems with people using direct actions (or with the police arresting them and the courts punishing them)
I do have a problem when the punishments are excessive and driven by a desire for retribution from people who get upset at delays on the roads/trains etc. whilst simultaneously not seemingly giving a toss about the destruction / damage if our planet.
Animal rights protesters choosing to disrupt a sporting event they feel is cruel is for them to justify. But I don't condemn them and admire their bravery, determination and personal sacrifice for a cause they believe in. And if a few race goers have their afternoon distrupted, not remotely worried tbh. |
Ah the suffragettes - everyone’s favourite example!
Certainly I wholeheartedly support their cause. Though I do not support all their actions.
But on the other hand direct action has frequently been taken by people for causes that I could never support. Many slave owners took direct action against the emancipation movement and new laws. Plantation owners took direct action by hunting down runaways with dogs. Blacks were killed to persuade other blacks not to vote. That’s an extreme example but it’s direct action by a minority.
To use an example I have referenced before, what about pro lifers being prepared to take direct action and kill the head of an abortion clinic. Perfectly rationale to the pro lifers but not I suggest to the rest of society.
So again let’s consider the principle before using particular popular causes that just muddy the debate. |  | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:15 - May 27 with 2827 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:07 - May 27 by Crawfordsboot |
Ah the suffragettes - everyone’s favourite example!
Certainly I wholeheartedly support their cause. Though I do not support all their actions.
But on the other hand direct action has frequently been taken by people for causes that I could never support. Many slave owners took direct action against the emancipation movement and new laws. Plantation owners took direct action by hunting down runaways with dogs. Blacks were killed to persuade other blacks not to vote. That’s an extreme example but it’s direct action by a minority.
To use an example I have referenced before, what about pro lifers being prepared to take direct action and kill the head of an abortion clinic. Perfectly rationale to the pro lifers but not I suggest to the rest of society.
So again let’s consider the principle before using particular popular causes that just muddy the debate. |
The pro life protesters have never got the irony of being pro-life only until those lives become independent enough to think for themselves, disagree with the p-l movement and attend an abortion clinic - whereupon the p-l lobby decide they are fair game & try to kill them ...
https://feminist.org/our-work/national-clinic-access-project/violent-attacks-on- | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:30 - May 27 with 2804 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:15 - May 27 by Ryorry |
The pro life protesters have never got the irony of being pro-life only until those lives become independent enough to think for themselves, disagree with the p-l movement and attend an abortion clinic - whereupon the p-l lobby decide they are fair game & try to kill them ...
https://feminist.org/our-work/national-clinic-access-project/violent-attacks-on- |
With respect we all have causes we can agree with or disagree with - that’s not my point.
I’m saying discuss the principle of direct action without invoking particular causes, good or bad. | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:43 - May 27 with 2759 views | Herbivore |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:07 - May 27 by Crawfordsboot |
Ah the suffragettes - everyone’s favourite example!
Certainly I wholeheartedly support their cause. Though I do not support all their actions.
But on the other hand direct action has frequently been taken by people for causes that I could never support. Many slave owners took direct action against the emancipation movement and new laws. Plantation owners took direct action by hunting down runaways with dogs. Blacks were killed to persuade other blacks not to vote. That’s an extreme example but it’s direct action by a minority.
To use an example I have referenced before, what about pro lifers being prepared to take direct action and kill the head of an abortion clinic. Perfectly rationale to the pro lifers but not I suggest to the rest of society.
So again let’s consider the principle before using particular popular causes that just muddy the debate. |
You've spent most of your post citing examples of particular causes only to conclude by saying we shouldn't discuss particular causes. I would argue the causes you've cited and the methods invoked by those causes are deliberately employed to muddy the debate, something you also implore against. [Post edited 27 May 2023 16:47]
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:44 - May 27 with 2758 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:30 - May 27 by Crawfordsboot |
With respect we all have causes we can agree with or disagree with - that’s not my point.
I’m saying discuss the principle of direct action without invoking particular causes, good or bad. |
It was just a casual comment addiing to what you'd said - I didn't claim it as a major point of the debate! | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:59 - May 27 with 2694 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:44 - May 27 by Ryorry |
It was just a casual comment addiing to what you'd said - I didn't claim it as a major point of the debate! |
Sorry - also I found the link to be informative (and scary) | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:05 - May 27 with 2678 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 16:43 - May 27 by Herbivore |
You've spent most of your post citing examples of particular causes only to conclude by saying we shouldn't discuss particular causes. I would argue the causes you've cited and the methods invoked by those causes are deliberately employed to muddy the debate, something you also implore against. [Post edited 27 May 2023 16:47]
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I was really just trying to show that using particular popular causes in support of direct action does not necessarily justify direct action.
If we leave aside particular causes do you approve or disapprove of direct action. If you approve of direct action would you place any sort of limit on the nature or level of direct action? | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:12 - May 27 with 2653 views | Herbivore |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:05 - May 27 by Crawfordsboot |
I was really just trying to show that using particular popular causes in support of direct action does not necessarily justify direct action.
If we leave aside particular causes do you approve or disapprove of direct action. If you approve of direct action would you place any sort of limit on the nature or level of direct action? |
I think in most circumstances killing people is not really cool, which was an example of direct action you were keen to cite. I'm not sure that's on quite the same level as people inhabiting a space they aren't really meant to inhabit, from both an ethical and legal standpoint. Some of the examples you cited were also more about self-interest than furthering a cause, a slave owner killing slaves, for example, is acting out of self-interest, whereas people taking direct action against slavery are taking a stand against a practice they see as unethical.
It's not really a clear yes or no answer as to whether direct action is acceptable because it will always depend on the extent of the action, the context, and the motivation. You can't strip out all context and take a reductionist approach that either all direct action is acceptable or all direct action is unacceptable. | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:29 - May 27 with 2621 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:12 - May 27 by Herbivore |
I think in most circumstances killing people is not really cool, which was an example of direct action you were keen to cite. I'm not sure that's on quite the same level as people inhabiting a space they aren't really meant to inhabit, from both an ethical and legal standpoint. Some of the examples you cited were also more about self-interest than furthering a cause, a slave owner killing slaves, for example, is acting out of self-interest, whereas people taking direct action against slavery are taking a stand against a practice they see as unethical.
It's not really a clear yes or no answer as to whether direct action is acceptable because it will always depend on the extent of the action, the context, and the motivation. You can't strip out all context and take a reductionist approach that either all direct action is acceptable or all direct action is unacceptable. |
You make some good points, particularly your last paragraph. Forget about my particular examples I’m not hung up on the for or against.
Your final sentence is interesting. I agree as far as it goes but it begs the question - how do we decide the point at which acceptable becomes unacceptable. Also what if others demand a right as individuals to take a different view and act accordingly. | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:39 - May 27 with 2607 views | Herbivore |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:29 - May 27 by Crawfordsboot |
You make some good points, particularly your last paragraph. Forget about my particular examples I’m not hung up on the for or against.
Your final sentence is interesting. I agree as far as it goes but it begs the question - how do we decide the point at which acceptable becomes unacceptable. Also what if others demand a right as individuals to take a different view and act accordingly. |
Again, that would depend on the extent, context, and motivation of the action those people took. Given that we live in a country where people have been arrested for very mild and peaceful anti-monarchy protests I don't think we need to worry that there is too much tolerance of direct action in this country. Quite the opposite in fact. | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 18:47 - May 27 with 2534 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 17:39 - May 27 by Herbivore |
Again, that would depend on the extent, context, and motivation of the action those people took. Given that we live in a country where people have been arrested for very mild and peaceful anti-monarchy protests I don't think we need to worry that there is too much tolerance of direct action in this country. Quite the opposite in fact. |
Ouch - that’s unfair using my greatest prejudice against me.
Vive la Republic.
The idea of “extent, context and motivation” appeals but will still come back to “your opinion v my opinion”
The article linked below is worth a read for those who have stayed with us this far.
https://www.cairn.info/revue-raisons-politiques-2018-1-page-13.htm | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 18:58 - May 27 with 2509 views | Herbivore |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 18:47 - May 27 by Crawfordsboot |
Ouch - that’s unfair using my greatest prejudice against me.
Vive la Republic.
The idea of “extent, context and motivation” appeals but will still come back to “your opinion v my opinion”
The article linked below is worth a read for those who have stayed with us this far.
https://www.cairn.info/revue-raisons-politiques-2018-1-page-13.htm |
As a society we draw lines in law as to what is and isn't acceptable in terms of protest and direct action, and even, to some extent, which views are allowable to support said protest. Laws and ethics aren't the same thing though and what I find morally permissible you might not. I'd say our values are more fundamental than being just opinions, but they are probably just as subjective. | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 19:26 - May 27 with 2471 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 18:58 - May 27 by Herbivore |
As a society we draw lines in law as to what is and isn't acceptable in terms of protest and direct action, and even, to some extent, which views are allowable to support said protest. Laws and ethics aren't the same thing though and what I find morally permissible you might not. I'd say our values are more fundamental than being just opinions, but they are probably just as subjective. |
Thanks for engaging. I find it an interesting and challenging issue, particularly so in our current political climate. | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 19:42 - May 27 with 2447 views | eireblue |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 12:11 - May 27 by Ryorry |
A couple of "antis" on here don't seem to realise they're doing the serious cause of animal welfare no favours by a) getting personal and b )putting up ludicrous analogies like Roman gladitorial combat (in which one competitor* has* to die, ie a 50% death rate, to satisfy the Emperor - as I'm sure you remember, Eire. [Post edited 27 May 2023 12:14]
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Ryorry, where did I say any of that in my suggestion.
Nobody has to die in my race goer competition that I outlined, where did I say that?
I said we regularly get 10 to 20 people, or maybe 40 for a special occasion, and they have a fight, hooligans have been doing this for years in the wild. It is a competition, so someone has to win, I didn’t say the purpose was to kill people.
But you know, sometimes that may happen, but it is a risk the spectators are willing to take.
Why would any horse race horsing fan object, it’s just entertainment based on things that mammals do naturally. |  | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:40 - May 27 with 2369 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 19:42 - May 27 by eireblue |
Ryorry, where did I say any of that in my suggestion.
Nobody has to die in my race goer competition that I outlined, where did I say that?
I said we regularly get 10 to 20 people, or maybe 40 for a special occasion, and they have a fight, hooligans have been doing this for years in the wild. It is a competition, so someone has to win, I didn’t say the purpose was to kill people.
But you know, sometimes that may happen, but it is a risk the spectators are willing to take.
Why would any horse race horsing fan object, it’s just entertainment based on things that mammals do naturally. |
From this
"Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 10:19 - May 27 with 267 views eireblue
(Your response to 'Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 19:51 - May 26 by noggin -
Surely every Grand National jockey, trainer and owner enters the race knowing there's a chance that the horse will die. Isn't that just as selfish?')
Eire: "This is why I think I was along the right lines with the Gladiator analogy.
As we know humans sometimes have a fight response to danger, we see many humans in the wild enjoying a good rumble.
So we grab random race-horsing fans, put them up in some accommodation, feed them, train them, then oh I don’t know, put 10 or 20 in a stadium, and ask them to fight. Last one standing wins.
Some of the contestants, may need some encouragement, not sure what, just be something scary enough to chivy people along to fight as hard as they can, almost to and sometimes past the point of having a heart attack in some circumstances.
I really can’t see the problem, of course, a small percentage may die, but you know, it was acceptable back then, and seems to be acceptable now for some mammals.
I really can’t see why any race goer would object, if they are lucky enough to be selected. "
There couldn't be a clearer analogy to Roman gladiator fights in their arenas.
I expected, given your intelligence, that you'd come up with a view or idea that might actually do something to win people round, given the seriousness of the cause. | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:51 - May 27 with 2331 views | eireblue |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:40 - May 27 by Ryorry |
From this
"Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 10:19 - May 27 with 267 views eireblue
(Your response to 'Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 19:51 - May 26 by noggin -
Surely every Grand National jockey, trainer and owner enters the race knowing there's a chance that the horse will die. Isn't that just as selfish?')
Eire: "This is why I think I was along the right lines with the Gladiator analogy.
As we know humans sometimes have a fight response to danger, we see many humans in the wild enjoying a good rumble.
So we grab random race-horsing fans, put them up in some accommodation, feed them, train them, then oh I don’t know, put 10 or 20 in a stadium, and ask them to fight. Last one standing wins.
Some of the contestants, may need some encouragement, not sure what, just be something scary enough to chivy people along to fight as hard as they can, almost to and sometimes past the point of having a heart attack in some circumstances.
I really can’t see the problem, of course, a small percentage may die, but you know, it was acceptable back then, and seems to be acceptable now for some mammals.
I really can’t see why any race goer would object, if they are lucky enough to be selected. "
There couldn't be a clearer analogy to Roman gladiator fights in their arenas.
I expected, given your intelligence, that you'd come up with a view or idea that might actually do something to win people round, given the seriousness of the cause. |
Nope, I didn’t say anything about an emperor or 50% of contestants having to die. You said that.
Boxing happens all the time, and 50% of the contestants don’t die, now.
It’s just fighting.
And as we have seen on other threads, people love to think about people having the boot stuck into them.
Analogy doesn’t mean exactly the same. You know this, Rorry, so why exaggerate what I said?
So I still can’t see why people, especially race goers, would object to what I am proposing. | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:56 - May 27 with 2326 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:51 - May 27 by eireblue |
Nope, I didn’t say anything about an emperor or 50% of contestants having to die. You said that.
Boxing happens all the time, and 50% of the contestants don’t die, now.
It’s just fighting.
And as we have seen on other threads, people love to think about people having the boot stuck into them.
Analogy doesn’t mean exactly the same. You know this, Rorry, so why exaggerate what I said?
So I still can’t see why people, especially race goers, would object to what I am proposing. |
It was you who literally said -
"This is why I think I was along the right lines with the Gladiator analogy". | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 21:07 - May 27 with 2314 views | eireblue |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:56 - May 27 by Ryorry |
It was you who literally said -
"This is why I think I was along the right lines with the Gladiator analogy". |
I really didn’t want to do this,
Analogy:
A similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
You introduced the silly idea of an emperor and 50% deaths, in an attempt to belittle the idea.
I still haven’t heard a reason why race goers would object to the game I laid out. Which doesn’t involve emperors, or 50% of deaths, but does have some similarities to the old Gladiators, people being housed, fed, trained, and fighting in front of thousands of people, sometimes with a bit of encouragement, and with the odd unfortunate death, maybe as little as one everyone other day.
And as we know people fight anyway.
What’s the objection? | | | |
| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 20:53 - May 28 with 2069 views | Ryorry |
Horse and cart?  | |
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| Looks like another great sporting event is getting ruined next week on 22:18 - May 28 with 1973 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Cheers. Have been told my best bet is either that or a train to Croydon and an Uber from there.
I like your Morden shout and then Uber from the station.
Thanks | |
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