| Current model clubs… 23:28 - May 28 with 9951 views | hoppy |
Which clubs would be seen as the ones for us to aspire to now, for the approach they take and the opportunities and aims that are realistic? |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:20 - May 29 with 2129 views | jayessess |
| Current model clubs… on 12:13 - May 29 by cbower |
Hard to disagree. They play good football, have seemingly established themselves at a very competitive level. What we have to recognise is they are willing to sell some 'star' players when their stock is high and then reinvest the big money to maybe add 2 more quality buys. At some stage, we as Town fans may have to stomach the loss of one or two of our favourites too. |
But what does it mean to model yourself on Brighton? It's very easy to say we should sell players for lots of money and buy more really good players with the proceeds. But almost every club in England from Crawley Town in 90th place to Brighton in 6th is trying to do that! |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:25 - May 29 with 2095 views | cbower |
| Current model clubs… on 12:20 - May 29 by jayessess |
But what does it mean to model yourself on Brighton? It's very easy to say we should sell players for lots of money and buy more really good players with the proceeds. But almost every club in England from Crawley Town in 90th place to Brighton in 6th is trying to do that! |
At the level we are know it might mean selling someone like Chaplin or In 12 months Broadhead in order to reinvest. 25 years ago we did it with Dyer. |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:30 - May 29 with 2076 views | burnbudgiesburn |
| Current model clubs… on 12:25 - May 29 by cbower |
At the level we are know it might mean selling someone like Chaplin or In 12 months Broadhead in order to reinvest. 25 years ago we did it with Dyer. |
Yes, we'll have to get used to that. The great thing is, being in the championship now we'll get full value from any sales. No one was paying big bucks to L1 sides.
The sell-on clause basically saved us with Flynn Downes. From being stolen at L1 level for 1m we got around 4.25m as a L1 Club. |  | | |
| Current model clubs… on 12:31 - May 29 with 2076 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Current model clubs… on 12:20 - May 29 by jayessess |
But what does it mean to model yourself on Brighton? It's very easy to say we should sell players for lots of money and buy more really good players with the proceeds. But almost every club in England from Crawley Town in 90th place to Brighton in 6th is trying to do that! |
The key is in having a manager and set up that develops and improves players. Couple this to recruiting players with potential who fit into the style and set up.
Many clubs seem to have the underlying principle without the careful underpinning to make it work.
Plus, there are quite a few clubs in the 84 you suggest who are not following that philosophy at all. I offer you Derby and Wednesday as two. |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:31 - May 29 with 2076 views | jayessess |
| Current model clubs… on 12:25 - May 29 by cbower |
At the level we are know it might mean selling someone like Chaplin or In 12 months Broadhead in order to reinvest. 25 years ago we did it with Dyer. |
But the hard part of being Brighton or Brentford isn't selling players. Selling good football players is easy, suitors batter down your door.
The recruitment is the actual difficult thing. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:35 - May 29 with 2053 views | Churchman |
| Current model clubs… on 10:39 - May 29 by ElephantintheRoom |
Complete and upper rubbish. You simply cannot compare Ipswich with Brighton. One is run by a local gambler who has struck lucky - the other is a franchise run by a couple of outside chancers on behalf of some US-based opportunists on behalf of a pension fund manager. The two business models are complete opposites.
Your fatuous argument that school kids trained for a decade in the ‘Ipswich way’ are somehow bought is risible. You could add Robin Turner to that list, Osman and Butcher - all played their part in a rather easy cup run - as did Mick Lambert. And don’t forget Clive Woods signed from Norwich Gothic.
Models for Ipswich to follow are probably the other franchise clubs operating on borrowed money. Man U perhaps - or being more realistic, Burnley. - but they, like everyone else will be operating at a loss and one relegation away from imploding, as indeed Sheff U were. The second division is full to overflowing of yesterdays ‘model clubs’…. Swansea, Stoke, Boro, Norwich, West Brom, Uncle Tomm Cobbley and all. Brentford and Brighton will be in Leicester’s position within five years. Brentford perhaps even next year |
Robin Turner was born in Carlisle, Osman in Repton, Lambert in Cambridgeshire. So you describe my argument as fatuous - a pompous person’s word for silly. Well, that’s your opinion but you missed the point. Never mind.
I wasn’t comparing my club to Brighton, I was answering the question to the opening post re model clubs. It wasn’t too hard to work out.
You have not once made a positive post about this club. Not one aspect. Nothing. Everything is negative. You post more when we lose or struggle so you were pretty quiet February onwards. What a surprise. No alternative suggestions for things you don’t like either. Zippo. Just misery..
All a bit sad really. |  | | |
| Current model clubs… on 12:36 - May 29 with 2049 views | cbower |
| Current model clubs… on 12:31 - May 29 by jayessess |
But the hard part of being Brighton or Brentford isn't selling players. Selling good football players is easy, suitors batter down your door.
The recruitment is the actual difficult thing. |
Couldn't agree more. Recruitment is everything. On the evidence so far, McKenna can spot and develop players. It's the only way we will sustainably progress. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:36 - May 29 with 2050 views | unstableblue |
| Current model clubs… on 06:53 - May 29 by BlueBoots |
Definitely not Brentford - should be looking at improving the academy level football, not scrapping it completely. |
May I humbly suggest that you’re missing the point on Brentford?
The “we don’t want to be Brentford because they close their academy’ isn’t the full picture.
Brentford like Brighton are a very well ‘aligned’ footballing organisations. Who’ve put in excellent CEOs and footballing/technical directors who create a sustainable environment for coaches to come and excel. With the added bonus that if the manager/first team coach leaves it’s not that damaging (not sure we’ve quite got that yet?)
What these clubs do well, is get a set of strategies and tactics and ACTUALLY implement them (think the opposite of Evans’ 10 point plan flannel).
One of their strategies ended with a choice to go a different route to an academy, probably because it’s hard to compete for young talent with all the London larger clubs. But could pick up their academy cast offs… as well as other European clubs.
That wouldn’t work for us in our environment.
Brentford are very well run. Including true fan representation.
Of note Brightons footballing/technical director was poached by Newcastle. [Post edited 29 May 2023 13:00]
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| Current model clubs… on 12:37 - May 29 with 2047 views | LankHenners |
| Current model clubs… on 12:20 - May 29 by jayessess |
But what does it mean to model yourself on Brighton? It's very easy to say we should sell players for lots of money and buy more really good players with the proceeds. But almost every club in England from Crawley Town in 90th place to Brighton in 6th is trying to do that! |
Sure but the reason why Brighton are often cited as answers to questions like the OP is they're, at this moment in time at least, better/smarter at doing it than lots of other clubs. A few years ago people would have said Southampton and Leicester as examples.
They've shown themselves to be excellent recruiters by shopping in relatively underused markets and having the staff in place with the necessary contacts and powers of persuasion to get those players in, in addition to being able to demonstrate an ability to get young players on a pathway into the first team.
Don't really think it's unreasonable to say that, broadly speaking, 'modelling' ourselves on Brighton is a good idea. |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:48 - May 29 with 2023 views | NthQldITFC |
| Current model clubs… on 12:35 - May 29 by Churchman |
Robin Turner was born in Carlisle, Osman in Repton, Lambert in Cambridgeshire. So you describe my argument as fatuous - a pompous person’s word for silly. Well, that’s your opinion but you missed the point. Never mind.
I wasn’t comparing my club to Brighton, I was answering the question to the opening post re model clubs. It wasn’t too hard to work out.
You have not once made a positive post about this club. Not one aspect. Nothing. Everything is negative. You post more when we lose or struggle so you were pretty quiet February onwards. What a surprise. No alternative suggestions for things you don’t like either. Zippo. Just misery..
All a bit sad really. |
I'm never quite sure what to make of this pachyderm. He certainly seems to be getting more angry and/or bitter in his posts, but I'm still not quite convinced he's a budgie, even though the timing might suggest he is. He might just be a misanthrope, or anti-Ipswich for some other reason?
If he were to come out and state a Norwich affinity, he might even find he would be embraced on here, even though he seems to be at the opposite end of the spectrum to the lovely gentleman that is giant_stow, formerly Ullaa. |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:49 - May 29 with 2018 views | jayessess |
| Current model clubs… on 12:37 - May 29 by LankHenners |
Sure but the reason why Brighton are often cited as answers to questions like the OP is they're, at this moment in time at least, better/smarter at doing it than lots of other clubs. A few years ago people would have said Southampton and Leicester as examples.
They've shown themselves to be excellent recruiters by shopping in relatively underused markets and having the staff in place with the necessary contacts and powers of persuasion to get those players in, in addition to being able to demonstrate an ability to get young players on a pathway into the first team.
Don't really think it's unreasonable to say that, broadly speaking, 'modelling' ourselves on Brighton is a good idea. |
Recruiting well is an eternal model for succeeding as a football club, which makes it a bit of a tautology here, like saying we should succeed by being successful.
I'd also say "recruit brilliantly" is difficult to sustain. Underused markets don't stay underused for long if someone is doing conspicuously well out of them. Novel ways of analysing under-valued players soon get adopted by everyone else. Expert recruitment staff get poached by bigger clubs. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:55 - May 29 with 1993 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Current model clubs… on 12:49 - May 29 by jayessess |
Recruiting well is an eternal model for succeeding as a football club, which makes it a bit of a tautology here, like saying we should succeed by being successful.
I'd also say "recruit brilliantly" is difficult to sustain. Underused markets don't stay underused for long if someone is doing conspicuously well out of them. Novel ways of analysing under-valued players soon get adopted by everyone else. Expert recruitment staff get poached by bigger clubs. |
You are correct. However, one underlying principle is run the club as a Premier Club should be run and you are well on your way. For a long time we were run how a League 1 club should be run and we gradually became one. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:55 - May 29 with 1993 views | cbower |
| Current model clubs… on 12:37 - May 29 by LankHenners |
Sure but the reason why Brighton are often cited as answers to questions like the OP is they're, at this moment in time at least, better/smarter at doing it than lots of other clubs. A few years ago people would have said Southampton and Leicester as examples.
They've shown themselves to be excellent recruiters by shopping in relatively underused markets and having the staff in place with the necessary contacts and powers of persuasion to get those players in, in addition to being able to demonstrate an ability to get young players on a pathway into the first team.
Don't really think it's unreasonable to say that, broadly speaking, 'modelling' ourselves on Brighton is a good idea. |
I really like the caveat of 'at this moment in time at least'. Outside of maybe 6 clubs, top flight football in England is so transitory. Every season 2/3's of Premier League sides could realistcally go down. Southampton looked 'model' a few years ago. Newcastle and Villa have quite recently been in the Championship. We have to make the most of this moment, this management and ownership team. It's unlikely we will get another 20-30 year stint as a top flight outfit like we were from the late 60s until 1986. Success would be getting there and staying there for 5 or 6 seasons. Best we have had in Premier League is 3 in a row from 92-95. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 13:00 - May 29 with 1982 views | LankHenners |
| Current model clubs… on 12:49 - May 29 by jayessess |
Recruiting well is an eternal model for succeeding as a football club, which makes it a bit of a tautology here, like saying we should succeed by being successful.
I'd also say "recruit brilliantly" is difficult to sustain. Underused markets don't stay underused for long if someone is doing conspicuously well out of them. Novel ways of analysing under-valued players soon get adopted by everyone else. Expert recruitment staff get poached by bigger clubs. |
I think everyone’s aware of that, the OP was ‘what club can we look at and say “that could be us if things go really well”?’ and right now the obvious answer is Brighton, not really understanding the pushback on that, not that I don’t get what you’re saying as a general point. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 13:20 - May 29 with 1948 views | jayessess |
| Current model clubs… on 13:00 - May 29 by LankHenners |
I think everyone’s aware of that, the OP was ‘what club can we look at and say “that could be us if things go really well”?’ and right now the obvious answer is Brighton, not really understanding the pushback on that, not that I don’t get what you’re saying as a general point. |
I guess want to push back a little against the idea that there's a formula or a model for succeeding as a football club?
Think there's a lot more chaos, a lot more intangible forces and lot more subjective judgements involved than that allows for. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 13:34 - May 29 with 1941 views | Churchman |
| Current model clubs… on 12:48 - May 29 by NthQldITFC |
I'm never quite sure what to make of this pachyderm. He certainly seems to be getting more angry and/or bitter in his posts, but I'm still not quite convinced he's a budgie, even though the timing might suggest he is. He might just be a misanthrope, or anti-Ipswich for some other reason?
If he were to come out and state a Norwich affinity, he might even find he would be embraced on here, even though he seems to be at the opposite end of the spectrum to the lovely gentleman that is giant_stow, formerly Ullaa. |
I like giant_stow/Ullaa. His posts are balanced and always ‘add value’ (sorry for the bullsh£t bingo terminology - best I could come up with). In fact anyone who posts from any club in that way gets a big thumbs up from me. Perspectives are always interesting.
Not many of us are eternal optimists and for the most part I could certainly be described as a glass half empty merchant. But I’ve long since learned that if you want to make a negative point about something, as I did with the Bristol R away result, balancing it with something positive whether it’s big picture or anything else is no bad thing.
It’s easy to be negative and miserable. 20 years of average to pitiable football and a rotting club have given us the right to that more than many. Yet the past two years whether owned by Gamechanger, Satan or the Chuckle Brothers has given me more fun, pleasure, optimism than annything all the way back to 2001.
It’s to be enjoyed. It may blow up spectacularly, who knows. All the more reason to enjoy a 98 point, 101 goal season in a full stadium filled with happiness. It’s the moment.
If certain people can’t see it, maybe sport isn’t for them | | | |
| Current model clubs… on 13:49 - May 29 with 1933 views | Vegtablue |
| Current model clubs… on 12:49 - May 29 by jayessess |
Recruiting well is an eternal model for succeeding as a football club, which makes it a bit of a tautology here, like saying we should succeed by being successful.
I'd also say "recruit brilliantly" is difficult to sustain. Underused markets don't stay underused for long if someone is doing conspicuously well out of them. Novel ways of analysing under-valued players soon get adopted by everyone else. Expert recruitment staff get poached by bigger clubs. |
Lesser-used markets will become increasingly used and data-driven recruitment is being adopted by more clubs every year - Plymouth one recent example - but can nonetheless illuminate the way in the interim, before this becomes the standard approach.
I think unstable's sustainability point is what separates clubs like Brighton from others also recruiting well at the moment. Establish a coherent style of play that you as a club are committed to. Hire players and coaching staff that are suited to it. This doesn't protect you from the inevitable downturns in fortune but it's a far better approach in my opinion. Chase historically successful managers irrespective of your squad's attributes is the model many clubs still seemingly adopt. These squads often contain a hodgepodge of attributes already due to prior implementation of the strategy. | | | |
| Current model clubs… on 13:51 - May 29 with 1928 views | Keno |
Airfix are probably the best [Post edited 29 May 2023 13:52]
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| Current model clubs… on 14:18 - May 29 with 1896 views | Whos_blue |
| Current model clubs… on 11:57 - May 29 by ArnoldMoorhen |
And of that team, people often forget that Geodes was the real gem. Hard as rock, cracking shot, crystal clear decision making. |
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| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Current model clubs… on 14:46 - May 29 with 1851 views | jayessess |
| Current model clubs… on 13:49 - May 29 by Vegtablue |
Lesser-used markets will become increasingly used and data-driven recruitment is being adopted by more clubs every year - Plymouth one recent example - but can nonetheless illuminate the way in the interim, before this becomes the standard approach.
I think unstable's sustainability point is what separates clubs like Brighton from others also recruiting well at the moment. Establish a coherent style of play that you as a club are committed to. Hire players and coaching staff that are suited to it. This doesn't protect you from the inevitable downturns in fortune but it's a far better approach in my opinion. Chase historically successful managers irrespective of your squad's attributes is the model many clubs still seemingly adopt. These squads often contain a hodgepodge of attributes already due to prior implementation of the strategy. |
I think there's a list of dos and don't, for sure. Think I'd add a few to that list we learned from the Evans era:
- It's penny wise, pound foolish to scrimp on backroom staff and infrastructure.
- If you have a coach/manager that fits the club and earns some credit in the bank, back through downturns and have a very careful succession plan.
- You have to balance the players you get for a return on investment with experienced players who you know are up to the level. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 10:18 - Jun 1 with 1696 views | itfcjoe |
| Current model clubs… on 12:55 - May 29 by cbower |
I really like the caveat of 'at this moment in time at least'. Outside of maybe 6 clubs, top flight football in England is so transitory. Every season 2/3's of Premier League sides could realistcally go down. Southampton looked 'model' a few years ago. Newcastle and Villa have quite recently been in the Championship. We have to make the most of this moment, this management and ownership team. It's unlikely we will get another 20-30 year stint as a top flight outfit like we were from the late 60s until 1986. Success would be getting there and staying there for 5 or 6 seasons. Best we have had in Premier League is 3 in a row from 92-95. |
Realistically with the money at Newcastle now, there are 7 clubs that are basically immune from relegation (Man City, Man U, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle).
That means that 3 out of the other 13 will go down - basically a 1 in 4 chance. As Leicester have shown, a bad season can happen to the most seemingly established clubs. |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 10:29 - Jun 1 with 1664 views | cbower |
| Current model clubs… on 10:18 - Jun 1 by itfcjoe |
Realistically with the money at Newcastle now, there are 7 clubs that are basically immune from relegation (Man City, Man U, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle).
That means that 3 out of the other 13 will go down - basically a 1 in 4 chance. As Leicester have shown, a bad season can happen to the most seemingly established clubs. |
You're right. Not great odds though for a prolonged stay for a club like Town. | |
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| Current model clubs… on 12:27 - Jun 1 with 1606 views | BlueBoots |
| Current model clubs… on 12:36 - May 29 by unstableblue |
May I humbly suggest that you’re missing the point on Brentford?
The “we don’t want to be Brentford because they close their academy’ isn’t the full picture.
Brentford like Brighton are a very well ‘aligned’ footballing organisations. Who’ve put in excellent CEOs and footballing/technical directors who create a sustainable environment for coaches to come and excel. With the added bonus that if the manager/first team coach leaves it’s not that damaging (not sure we’ve quite got that yet?)
What these clubs do well, is get a set of strategies and tactics and ACTUALLY implement them (think the opposite of Evans’ 10 point plan flannel).
One of their strategies ended with a choice to go a different route to an academy, probably because it’s hard to compete for young talent with all the London larger clubs. But could pick up their academy cast offs… as well as other European clubs.
That wouldn’t work for us in our environment.
Brentford are very well run. Including true fan representation.
Of note Brightons footballing/technical director was poached by Newcastle. [Post edited 29 May 2023 13:00]
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"One of their strategies ended with a choice to go a different route to an academy, probably because it’s hard to compete for young talent with all the London larger clubs. But could pick up their academy cast offs… as well as other European clubs.
That wouldn’t work for us in our environment.
Brentford are very well run. Including true fan representation."
What you've done there is reinforce the point that I was trying to make; the OP was asking which clubs we should model ourselves on - I never disputed that Brentford was a well-run club.
Unlike Brentford, we potentially have one of the best catchment areas in the country for recruiting young talent, so modelling ourselves on a club that scrapped their Academy for me wouldn't be appropriate (that's not even taking account of the community aspect of Academy level football)
Brentford are actual going to reinstate Academy football from the beginning of next year, and in the period where they haven't had one have done an excellent job of finding young players released by other clubs to develop in their U21 setup. Their model has worked for them - could possibly work for lots of other clubs, but certainly wouldn't want it for ours. [Post edited 1 Jun 2023 12:30]
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| Current model clubs… on 13:10 - Jun 1 with 1562 views | JimmyJazz |
| Current model clubs… on 12:48 - May 29 by NthQldITFC |
I'm never quite sure what to make of this pachyderm. He certainly seems to be getting more angry and/or bitter in his posts, but I'm still not quite convinced he's a budgie, even though the timing might suggest he is. He might just be a misanthrope, or anti-Ipswich for some other reason?
If he were to come out and state a Norwich affinity, he might even find he would be embraced on here, even though he seems to be at the opposite end of the spectrum to the lovely gentleman that is giant_stow, formerly Ullaa. |
I don't think he's a budgie either, i think it's someone who long ago started to detest a sport that he once enjoyed. Most people would have walked away and found something more rewarding, a few though haven't reached that point and continue with poisoned barbs whenever possible. What better target than the club you actually (once?) supported |  |
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| Current model clubs… on 16:42 - Jun 1 with 1505 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Current model clubs… on 12:06 - May 29 by Ewan_Oozami |
What business model would you like to see Ipswich run on? Old money gained by one family because their ancestors came over with William the Conqueror and the other family starting a brewing business? |
I think ‘business model’ is part of the problem - football should be a competitive sport. So the problem lies with the way football has been hijacked by spivs, opportunists, gangsters and oil states - and is no longer a competitive sport.
When Sheepshanks destroyed the club I argued for a fan ownership type model à la Barcelona. At the time there were one or two wealthy individuals on the board who could have helped get that off the ground. The risible response to the ill-thought out share issue put the kibosh on that - and Sheepshanks was anxious to get his money back - so the club became what I çan only presume was a money-laundering vehicle. Now it’s a franchise - fronted by a couple of professional football parasites dusting down the model flogged to Bristol City. I
I don’t think you have to look too far for the way to run a local football club. Cambridge United and Luton have both effectively been saved from rogue ownership by fan ownership. Luton even managed to be a tad ethical and ignore the betting shilling on the way back
I don’t think the Cobbolds put any money in - quite the contrary they saw themselves as custodians of the club. I seem to remember the shares were sort of in a trust. to my mind some benevolent local businessmen made a far better ‘front of house’ than some owners who aren’t really the owners - let alone the gurning head honcho who looks and sounds like a comedy character.
Some people seem quite pleased with what the club has become - kind of depends when you became invested in the club I guess. I’m rooted in the 60s - the music was better then too. | |
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