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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257380 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:44 - Nov 19 with 3522 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

Ok. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect somebody who wants me to justify what I have posted in 3 and 4 without giving an option in 1) Do you seriously expect Israel to negotiate with people who not only slaughtered civilians on 7 October but decapitated babies, conducted mass gang rapes of grandmothers, mothers and teenagers before murdering their victims (Some during mid rape), mutilated women's genitalia, put live babies in ovens, cut open a pregnant woman and proceed to pull out the baby from her womb (whilst slapping her around the face so keep her awake in order to witness the brutality) before shooting the woman in the head and stabbing the baby multiple times whilst still attached to the cord and numerous other instances of barbarity?

I think it’s important to address this because so many people who want a ceasefire or negotiations between the 2 sides fail to address the sheer barbarity of October 7th and constantly refer to the negotiations between the a British government and the IRA. The two are nothing like each other. Either in the way they conduct their campaigns or the aims of their respective organisations. And

I’m saying that as somebody who is not the biggest fan of the Provisional IRA and their campaign against civilians in the 1970’s, 80’s and early 90’s. But I accept that they had a clear and defined aim. A United Ireland. They didn’t want to wipe Great Britain off the face of the earth. Or cleanse Ireland of all religions but Roman Catholics.

But it’s seems you are either unable or unwilling, so I will address what you asked me later this afternoon when I’m back later this afternoon.


None of that has anything to do with the reporting and use of sources which is what I originally asked about.

If you don't want to answer my questions then that's absolutely fine but trying to force someone to answer questions about something unrelated to the points they were making is an unacceptable way to go about things.

SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 11:14]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:44 - Nov 19 with 3521 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:33 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

You haven’t addressed the four questions I asked in my post.

But I do find it ironic that in point 2 that up you say that I talk about the charter as if it represents all Palestinians (you've completely made that up as I only refer to Hamas) and yet in point 1 you make the generalisation that Israel want to eliminate the presence of a Palestinian homeland or state (not the Israeli government or a small number of far right ultra religious zealots and terrorist sympathisers*)

*Look. See how easy it is to condemn extremists on both sides.


Israel. Not Israelis.

The Israeli state openly declares its intention to be rid of palestine as an entity. Apparently Palestinians are not reasonable in viewing that as an existential threat, whilst the endlessly quoted charter justifies whatever Israel wish to do.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:07 - Nov 19 with 3456 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:15 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue

A few questions. And I'd appreciate direct answers.

1. Dialogue with whom? Hamas? They are not the IRA. They don't want to negotiate a free Palestine state. The want to a) wipe Israel off the face of the earth and b) eradicate all Jews and Christians from the middle east. It's in their charter.

Do you seriously expect Israel to negotiate with people who not only slaughtered civilians on 7 October but decapitated babies, conducted mass gang rapes of grandmothers, mothers and teenagers before murdering their victims (Some during mid rape), mutilated women's genitalia, put live babies in ovens, cut open a pregnant woman and proceed to pull out the baby from her womb (whilst slapping her around the face so keep her awake in order to witness the brutality) before shooting the woman in the head and stabbing the baby multiple times whilst still attached to the cord and numerous other instances of barbarity?

2. Why are you not directing your point regarding closed borders to the Egyptian government? Hamas control the Gaza side of the border. Egypt the other.

3. When making your statement "the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this", were you aware that the Hmas figures, if they are to be believed, of civilian deaths stands at 11,000 (the IDF are really rubbish if they haven't killed. a single member of Hmas since strikes started) whilst the civilian casualties in Iraq are estimated between 280,771-315,190 and 46,319 Afghan civilians plus 67,000 people were killed in Pakistan in relation to the Afghan war. So that a rough figure of just over 400,000* civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" compared to the Hamas figures of 11,000*.

4. Although you didn't post it, how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals?

A genuine answer to the 4 questions would be appreciated.

*each civilliasn death an absolute tragedy.


I have only just come on here and haven't got long enough to read the other replies below so I will answer as best I can and will check back later today.

1. You could easily flip that around for Hamas' opinion of the Israeli government and the atrocities they have inflicted over decades let alone continue to inflict over the last few weeks. Much as Thatcher repeatedly shouted "we do not negotiate with terrorists" - the very ones who bombed her own party conference hotel - it was dialogue that brought peace and it is the only way. So, in short, yes I do. Why does Hamas have that in their charter? Why are Israel committing the genocide? Only dialogue can begin to find a peaceful solution. Perhaps there isn't one - does that make the genocide acceptable? Does it make trying to find one wrong?

2 My understanding is that Israel has directed the Egyptian government to keep the border closed but whatever the reason for it, it needs to be reopened. If it is Egypt's fault, it doesn't change the situation and Israel know it is the situation.

3 If you want to get into a game of whose illegal war is worse, we would be better using percentages I am sure. The "war on terror" was non-sensical from the beginning and I don't doubt that it was horrific in many ways and will continue to have on-going consequences. If you take Afghanistan alone, what has it actually achieved? I don't think you could describe it as genocide, though. I don't recall either Afghanistan nor Iraq have clearly provable war crimes such as cutting off water, etc but that may well just be my memory. And, of course, you know that the wars you quote figures on are ended. Those figures from Gaza are a very long way from what the final death toll will be even if the genocide ended miraculously right now.

4 Please provide actual evidence that they are doing that. I suggest that it would involve finding the tunnels and dealing with them instead of attacking those buildings themselves. I am quite sure that modern technology would allow identification of the structures themselves. Why have Israel not shown those images? If they don't have them, how do they know they exist? I am not a military expert and, should it be provable that Hamas are actually doing those things they (EDIT for clarity: Israel) would not be in breach of the Geneva convention. So far that proof is missing not for want of trying from Israel. Considering they are present within the hospital, that seems rather odd.

For what it's worth, Hamas are pure evil and I get that their objectives are abhorrent. However, the current operations are only going to drive more support for them from across the Arab and Muslim world. A more considered, measured and proportionate response would achieve better results in the long term, not least for the hostages who must be suffering worse than the Palestinian citizens. You are not going to eradicate support for those extreme Muslim objectives by the methods Israel are deploying. You demonstrate that by showing the awful increase in antisemitism it is leading to around the world.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 10:20]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Nov 19 with 3449 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:16 - Nov 18 by DJR

Returning this thread to what it should be about, this just from the Guardian, Action Aid being an organisation I give a monthly donation to.

Describing the overcrowded environment and lack of medical suppiles at Al Awda hospital, Adnan Radi, the northern Gaza hospital’s head of obstetrics and gynecology, told the humanitarian organization Action Aid:

In the last [few] days, we have become the only hospital in the entire Gaza Strip and the north who receive obstetrics, cesarean sections and gynecology services. Because all hospitals in Gaza and the north, after the siege, lost any services for women and obstetrics.’

Two days ago, we performed 16 caesarean sections under exceptional circumstances. There were cases of very severe bleeding and placental abruption as a result of difficulty in access, strikes etc… We did not have blood transfusion services… Blood transfusion is very limited, the blood bank has been closed and is difficult to access…

There are many children [who] have lost their lives. There are premature babies born at 30 or 31 weeks and we do not have anything to deal with [their cases]. There are no artificial respirators, there are none at all. We look at a child after birth, [their] weight is 1200g, 1300g, 1400g or one and a half kilograms. We do not have anything to deal with them. We look at babies losing their life because we have nothing.

In addition, there are women who suffer from postpartum bleeding and bleeding after operations and there are no blood transfusions at all. Two days ago, had a placental abruption case, and it was opened two or three times. We were trying to find two units of blood to compensate for what was lost. With difficulty, her life was saved.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 19:20]


I honestly can't watch the news anymore. Israel is showing no regard for the safety or wellbeing of 2 million people. Can you imagine the trauma of having a caesarean section, without any anaesthesia.
The killing needs to stop, now!

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:16 - Nov 19 with 3439 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:33 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

You haven’t addressed the four questions I asked in my post.

But I do find it ironic that in point 2 that up you say that I talk about the charter as if it represents all Palestinians (you've completely made that up as I only refer to Hamas) and yet in point 1 you make the generalisation that Israel want to eliminate the presence of a Palestinian homeland or state (not the Israeli government or a small number of far right ultra religious zealots and terrorist sympathisers*)

*Look. See how easy it is to condemn extremists on both sides.


“See how easy it is to condemn extremists in both sides.”

Then why are you here constantly giving cover to one set of extremists and their chosen response? And why so eager to smear protesters against that response?

A ceasefire is a practical step towards protecting civilians and stopping further war crimes, and the de-escalation that is needed to try and find a way back towards future peace and security for ALL. And a big part of ending that cycle of violence is to start marginalising those who see violence as the answer, especially those who planned and carried out the Hamas attack and its murderous killing of innocent civilians.

I’ve seen no credible alternative or plan for the future which involves further war crimes against Palestinian civilians and increased occupation and oppression in Gaza and the West Bank. But as you must surely know, the extremists who you are running interference for don’t actually care about Palestinian lives any more than Hamas care about Israeli lives.

Look how easy it is to condemn extremists on both sides and actually mean it.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 19 with 3394 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:16 - Nov 19 by Darth_Koont

“See how easy it is to condemn extremists in both sides.”

Then why are you here constantly giving cover to one set of extremists and their chosen response? And why so eager to smear protesters against that response?

A ceasefire is a practical step towards protecting civilians and stopping further war crimes, and the de-escalation that is needed to try and find a way back towards future peace and security for ALL. And a big part of ending that cycle of violence is to start marginalising those who see violence as the answer, especially those who planned and carried out the Hamas attack and its murderous killing of innocent civilians.

I’ve seen no credible alternative or plan for the future which involves further war crimes against Palestinian civilians and increased occupation and oppression in Gaza and the West Bank. But as you must surely know, the extremists who you are running interference for don’t actually care about Palestinian lives any more than Hamas care about Israeli lives.

Look how easy it is to condemn extremists on both sides and actually mean it.


Indeed. It is troubling that the US have now made a point a couple of times of saying that Israel must not end up occupying Gaza. Suggests that they think that is what is planned.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:36 - Nov 19 with 3352 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Nov 19 by noggin

I honestly can't watch the news anymore. Israel is showing no regard for the safety or wellbeing of 2 million people. Can you imagine the trauma of having a caesarean section, without any anaesthesia.
The killing needs to stop, now!


I find that it is not just the horror of the images, even in teh sanitised form that the BBC allow, that makes it difficult but the volume of information needed to form an opinion is very daunting. I thought a might find enlightenment by briefly reading the Wikipedia page on Hannah Arendt but that has just left me more confused and in need to reason things out for myself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt#Critique_of_human_rights

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:11 - Nov 19 with 3271 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart

Indeed. It is troubling that the US have now made a point a couple of times of saying that Israel must not end up occupying Gaza. Suggests that they think that is what is planned.


Israel have openly talked of an occupation following this conflict, not just to the US. As soon as a ceasefire starts we’ll be back to square one - Hamas will be back to re occupy Gaza. That’s why I’ve taken the position that Hamas cannot be eradicated. An Israeli occupation is the only way they can prevent Hamas retaking control of Gaza once the hostilities cease (for now). However that opens up the likelihood of an insurgent campaign against the IDF, and further civilian casualties.

It really does feel like a hopeless situation.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:15 - Nov 19 with 3257 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:11 - Nov 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Israel have openly talked of an occupation following this conflict, not just to the US. As soon as a ceasefire starts we’ll be back to square one - Hamas will be back to re occupy Gaza. That’s why I’ve taken the position that Hamas cannot be eradicated. An Israeli occupation is the only way they can prevent Hamas retaking control of Gaza once the hostilities cease (for now). However that opens up the likelihood of an insurgent campaign against the IDF, and further civilian casualties.

It really does feel like a hopeless situation.


An Israeli occupation means that Hamas and like minded organisations grow in power. An occupied people, especially when backed by religous fervour, is the perfect recruiting ground.

The only solution is two state. The only way that can possibly work is talking, and ceasing settlements and occupation. Killing people will not do the trick.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 12:16]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:23 - Nov 19 with 3246 viewsgiant_stow

Really good article here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-c

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:29 - Nov 19 with 3155 viewswkj

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:10 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue

I'm only going to address points 3 and 4:

3). You've repeatedly stating similar things to "if Hamas are to be believed" when addressing the number of deaths in Gaza but these numbers have been pretty much agreed on by MSF, the UN and a number of other organisations. I don't think it's right to cast doubt on the numbers unless you have something specific to back it up. Dropping comments like you have "poisons the well" around figures which seem to have a fairly wide consensus given you've provided no alternative source of figures.

4). I know you're not happy with the BBC but they have reported that the IDF are yet to produce any evidence of a Hamas base in the hospital and no evidence at all of a Hamas presence in the school bombed yesterday. That was a UN run safe building. Perhaps evidence will emerge but to cite these locations as bases without evidence should probably involve some caution. Happy to be corrected if such evidence is available.

You say each civilian death is a tragedy but also seem to imply "what are the IDF supposed to do". I don't think that's a very clear position. Can you let us know what you think they should do?

SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 8:21]


I have been busy all day as I have been doing some incredibly important work , so, have not had time to digest everything fully - but the situation around point number four is incredibly delicate and one that hopefully becomes transparent sooner rather than later. I get mental throw backs to when we invaded Iraq due to poor intel around the country having WMDs. I would hate to see unclear information be the cause of another incident of the UK government doing the wrong thing instead of trying to move towards a ceasefire.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 13:31]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:46 - Nov 19 with 3114 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:44 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue

None of that has anything to do with the reporting and use of sources which is what I originally asked about.

If you don't want to answer my questions then that's absolutely fine but trying to force someone to answer questions about something unrelated to the points they were making is an unacceptable way to go about things.

SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 11:14]


I now I'm back I’ll do you the courtesy of answering all the questions you put to me. And I’ll back up those answer with credible sources

Regarding the numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza. You state “I don't think it's right to cast doubt on the numbers unless you have something specific to back it up”.

Well firstly, I didn’t cast doubt on them I gave the disclaimer that these were Hamas figures. Something I’ll address later in my reply. However, if you are looking first something “specific to back it up” Is the President of the United States of America a decent enough source?

Joe Biden is on record as saying “I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed. I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war,” the US president said. “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using.”

I think it’s fair to say that Biden sees intelligence on the situation that that isn’t available to a couple of football fans on a message board.

Luke Baker, a former Reuters bureau chief in Jerusalem, also casts doubt on the reliability of the numbers : “It seems obvious that any self-respecting news organisation would make clear that Gaza’s health ministry is run by Hamas. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed,”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from

Other organisations, some of which you have named, and others in the above Guardian article I have linked, believe the figures to be fairly accurate. But even they accept that there is a grey area in differentiating combatants from civilians among the dead. As I said in my post, it beggars belief that the Israelis have only killed civilians and not a single member of Hamas has died. Bearing in mind that Hamas are the government, the police, the armed forces in Gaza etc.

So I don’t think it is unreasonable for me, when using numbers of civilian deaths* in my post to say “If Hamas are to be believed”.

Hamas control the Gaza Health Ministry. Just as you disputed the Covid figures coming out of Russia and China because their health ministries were controlled by Putin and Xi. People are entitled to put in the disclaimer that Hamas control the Gaza health ministry when using their figures.

So I don’t believe it’s fair for you to use language such as “poisoning the well”. If you read my post clearly, I wasn’t disputing the numbers killed. I put in the disclaimer, just as news outlets say certain claims by the IDF are unverified, and showed incredulity that very Gazan death was civilian. Not a single member of Hamas killed.

Of course, that’s just a distraction from the actual point I was making. NSB made a statement that “the poorly framed "war on terror" (his words, not mine) was nowhere near as disproportionate as this"

11,000 civilian deaths, if the figures from the Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry are to be believed*, in Gaza compared to approximately 400,000 civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" (again, his words, not mine) shows that statement to be quite wrong. Would be better for the debate if that point was actually addressed rather than the minutiae of language used in my post.

Moving on to your points regarding my question 4. You make two separate points although they are related. One regarding my view of the BBC, and in particular the face to camera option given by Jeremy Bowen. And one reading whether Hamas use Schools, Hospitals and other civilian areas to carry out their operations. I’ll address the BBC point first.

Taking aside from the fact that the BBC refuse to call Hamas terrorists, there reporting has been very shoddy. When a Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket hit the Al Ahli hospital, not only was the BBC quick to blame Israel, the reporter went as far to say that the sort of rocket could only have come from Israel (an opinion not a report) but the number of fatalities reported by the Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry wasn't questioned.

There's still no evidence that 500 people died, yet the BBC expressed no scepticism at the time.

Then there is this utter embarrassment of shoddy reporting



Jeremy Bowen is a journalist. Yet in that piece he isn’t reporting on what he has seen. Whether you think the stash of munitions is sufficient to amount to a "military base" is beside the point. Jeremy Bowen was bending over backwards to come up with an explanation as to why they might not even belong to Hamas at all.

“It’s not inconceivable that, I don’t know, perhaps the security department of the hospital might have [Kalashnikovs], certainly the police do”

Does hospital security also normally have grenades, explosive belts, and Hamas insignias? Rather than applying Occam's Razor, Jeremy Bowen strains every sinew to cast doubt on the claim that the hospital was being used by Hamas. He’s acting like a counsel for the defence rather than an independent reporter. Any excuse other than the obvious.

The IDF have also released footage of tunnels and munitions at other hospitals.

As for schools, I didn’t make any mention of the school that was bombed yesterday. I wasn’t aware of that at the time if my post. I stated “how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals”. Schools in the plural, not a specific school.

This is a well documented Hamas tactic and part of their human shield strategy, which was widely exposed during the 2014 conflict.

Again, I’ll call in a former President of the USA to reiterate that point.

“And Hamas is really smart. When they decide to rocket insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populace areas. And they are smart. So they try to put the Israelis in the position of either not defending or killing innocent civilians”.



NATO
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

Former USAID Gaza/West Bank Mission Director


CNN
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-incl

UNRWA
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-s

Your final point “You say each civilian death is a tragedy but also seem to imply "what are the IDF supposed to do". I don't think that's a very clear position. Can you let us know what you think they should do?

Israel are at war after the barbarity I described in my op. I have no doubt that there can only be one outcome. The absolute defeat and removal of Hamas from Gaza.

They are responsible for every civilian death in Gaza. And they don’t give a toss about the people or the loss of life.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770918

What do I expect the IDF to do? Not cut off water or electricity. That is a war crime for which I believe Netanyahu should spend the rest of his life in a cold cell.

I expect the IDF to carry out its campaign within the laws of war. Give civilians a chance to vacate the areas they intend to target in advance. They drop thousands of leaflets on the civilian population warning when and where attacks are going to take place. Israel are probably one of the few armies in the world that do this in modern times. It’s something that the allies did for the French population when carrying out bombing raids against the Nazis in occupied territory. And just like the Nazis refusing to let the people leave for safety, Hamas have attempted to stop thousands of civilians leaving Gaza. Many attempting to leave have been shot by Hamas. No doubt included in those civilian casualty figures.

Giant Stow linked an incredible series of telephone calls between the IDF and a Palestinian civilian government between. Incredibly detailed.

'I’m calling from Israeli intelligence. We have the order to bomb. You have tw by giant_stow 8 Nov 2023 12:20
...hours'

Realise this is on the BBC home page, so loads will have seen it, but in case you missed it, quite an insight into the war:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079



It would take some sort of heartless bastard not to be affected by the daily scenes we are seeing win our TV screens coming out of Gaza and feel no emotion. It’s unbearable seeing fathers carrying the bodies of bloodied dead or maimed babies. As a father myself, I couldn’t even to begin to imagine this happening to one of my own children. But this is war. And I’ve yet to see a war where innocents weren’t killed. 7000 innocent civilians were killed during NATO’s campaign against ISIS. But the outcome was that ISIS lost its territories and their terror campaign against western targets has greatly diminished.

We didn’t see the dead babies and injured children being beamed to our screen on a daily basis during that operation. We just ignorantly let NATO carry out their job and we are all the safer for it. Are we to deny Israel’s right to take similar actions against Hamas in light of October 7th? Should Israel be expected to fight their war under higher standards than those of NATO?

Well that’s very easy for me to say, and easy for others to counter in the comfort of our own middle class homes. We can give opinions knowing that very little of this will affect us.

If Hamas are using schools and hospitals as bases of operations, then under international law they are a legitimate target. I’m not comfortable with that. It is impossible to evacuate patients from hospitals with very little warning. So I do not support that action in any way. I’ve said that before.

So in answer to your last question “Can you let us know what you think they should do?” I don’t have an answer. Neither do you or most people around the world. A ceasefire? No. All that does is allow Hamas to re group and re arm. People whose views you would respect more than mine are of the same opinion.





Like Bernie Saunders my only temporary solution is a humanitarian pause to allow more civilians to find safe refuge and get in food, water, power and shelter for people.

Im happy to come back to you with any reply you give me Stokie but anyone else wanting to challenge me on the above,I won’t be making multiple replies. I’ve laid out my position. People are free to agree or disagree with them. And I’m not spending my Sunday doing this all day plus I’m also going back out for the day.

*I’ve used the words “If Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry are to be believed” rather than “If Hamas are to be believed” if you prefer that. But the two are the same.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:14 - Nov 19 with 3043 viewsRob88

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:14 - Nov 19 with 3028 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:07 - Nov 19 by Nthsuffolkblue

I have only just come on here and haven't got long enough to read the other replies below so I will answer as best I can and will check back later today.

1. You could easily flip that around for Hamas' opinion of the Israeli government and the atrocities they have inflicted over decades let alone continue to inflict over the last few weeks. Much as Thatcher repeatedly shouted "we do not negotiate with terrorists" - the very ones who bombed her own party conference hotel - it was dialogue that brought peace and it is the only way. So, in short, yes I do. Why does Hamas have that in their charter? Why are Israel committing the genocide? Only dialogue can begin to find a peaceful solution. Perhaps there isn't one - does that make the genocide acceptable? Does it make trying to find one wrong?

2 My understanding is that Israel has directed the Egyptian government to keep the border closed but whatever the reason for it, it needs to be reopened. If it is Egypt's fault, it doesn't change the situation and Israel know it is the situation.

3 If you want to get into a game of whose illegal war is worse, we would be better using percentages I am sure. The "war on terror" was non-sensical from the beginning and I don't doubt that it was horrific in many ways and will continue to have on-going consequences. If you take Afghanistan alone, what has it actually achieved? I don't think you could describe it as genocide, though. I don't recall either Afghanistan nor Iraq have clearly provable war crimes such as cutting off water, etc but that may well just be my memory. And, of course, you know that the wars you quote figures on are ended. Those figures from Gaza are a very long way from what the final death toll will be even if the genocide ended miraculously right now.

4 Please provide actual evidence that they are doing that. I suggest that it would involve finding the tunnels and dealing with them instead of attacking those buildings themselves. I am quite sure that modern technology would allow identification of the structures themselves. Why have Israel not shown those images? If they don't have them, how do they know they exist? I am not a military expert and, should it be provable that Hamas are actually doing those things they (EDIT for clarity: Israel) would not be in breach of the Geneva convention. So far that proof is missing not for want of trying from Israel. Considering they are present within the hospital, that seems rather odd.

For what it's worth, Hamas are pure evil and I get that their objectives are abhorrent. However, the current operations are only going to drive more support for them from across the Arab and Muslim world. A more considered, measured and proportionate response would achieve better results in the long term, not least for the hostages who must be suffering worse than the Palestinian citizens. You are not going to eradicate support for those extreme Muslim objectives by the methods Israel are deploying. You demonstrate that by showing the awful increase in antisemitism it is leading to around the world.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 10:20]


1.
Firstly, to try and make a false equivalence between Hamas and Israel is awful.

Hamas do not exist because of injustices by the Israeli state toward Palestinians. They exist in the same way that ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other Islamic jihadist terrorist organisations exist. To establish an Islamic caliphate in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank.

If there was no Israel then they would be committing atrocities against whatever Palestinian government was in power. Are you aware of what Hamas did to members of the Palestinian authority which was previously in control of Gaza.

Hamas do not, as you seem to believe, write their charter as a reaction to the actions of Israel to Palestinians. They write their charter as a reaction to Israel existing.

As I said to Stokie in my previous post, they are not an organisation like the IRA to be negotiated with. had a clear and defined aim. A United Ireland. They didn’t want to wipe Great Britain off the face of the earth. Or cleanse Ireland of all religions but Roman Catholics.

Hamas’ aim is to cleanse the region of all Jews and Christian’s.

Any negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian people can only take place with the Palestinian Authority. Hamas can never be a part of the solution.

Also, people keep using the word ‘genocide’. There isn’t a genocide. There are horrific civilian casualties. But not genocide.

Genocide is defined as intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. That simply isn’t happening. And nobody from the Israeli government has stated that this is their aim (There was one far right nutter who suggested nuking Gaza and he was removed from post that same day). During the last 73 years, the population of Gaza has grown year on year. It is now estimated at 778,187. In 1950, the population of Gaza was 63,444. Gaza has grown by 22,104 in the last year, which represents a 2.92% annual change. As Bluechev often says on here, the Palestinians will outgrow Israelis over the next two decades. That isn’t genocide.

But I hate having fact based conversations like this because every statistic we are talking about is a human life lost. It’s an absolute tragedy. But it’s wrong to use emotive language like genocide when it isn’t correct.

So on the one hand you are falsely accusing Israel of committing genocide, whilst on the other hand, although you describe the Internet of Hamas as abhorrent, you give a modicum of understanding as to why the group whose stated aim actually is to commit genocide against the Jewish population.

2.
The border between Gaza and Egypt is not closed under the direction of the Israeli government. The border has been closed since Hamas too control in Gaza because a) Egypt are terrified of having Jihadist militants spilling into their territory and b) they do not want a repeat of the huge numbers of Palestinian refugees pouring into Egypt as previously happened in Jordan and Lebanon.

FYI Just last month I posted a link to comments made by the Egyptian Prime Minster, who said “We are prepared to sacrifice millions of lives to ensure that no one encroaches upon our territory,” Had this statement been made by the Israeli Prime Minister it would have been a ten page thread of condemnation. Just like Assad’s bombing of 350,000 Palestinians at the Yarmouk refugee camp, It didn’t elicit a single response from people who claim to care about Palestinians. No Jews, No News.

3.
I wasn’t getting into the “game of whose war was worse”. You did that with your statement that “that “the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this[“/b]. I was simply pointing out that your statement was inaccurate.

I didn’t say whether I thought the invasion of Afghanistan was justifiable. It was . Or whether the invasion of Iraq was justifiable. It wasn’t. I simply used the numbers to challenge your statement.

4
I’ve already done that in my reply to Stokie.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Nov 19 with 2994 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:14 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

1.
Firstly, to try and make a false equivalence between Hamas and Israel is awful.

Hamas do not exist because of injustices by the Israeli state toward Palestinians. They exist in the same way that ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other Islamic jihadist terrorist organisations exist. To establish an Islamic caliphate in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank.

If there was no Israel then they would be committing atrocities against whatever Palestinian government was in power. Are you aware of what Hamas did to members of the Palestinian authority which was previously in control of Gaza.

Hamas do not, as you seem to believe, write their charter as a reaction to the actions of Israel to Palestinians. They write their charter as a reaction to Israel existing.

As I said to Stokie in my previous post, they are not an organisation like the IRA to be negotiated with. had a clear and defined aim. A United Ireland. They didn’t want to wipe Great Britain off the face of the earth. Or cleanse Ireland of all religions but Roman Catholics.

Hamas’ aim is to cleanse the region of all Jews and Christian’s.

Any negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian people can only take place with the Palestinian Authority. Hamas can never be a part of the solution.

Also, people keep using the word ‘genocide’. There isn’t a genocide. There are horrific civilian casualties. But not genocide.

Genocide is defined as intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. That simply isn’t happening. And nobody from the Israeli government has stated that this is their aim (There was one far right nutter who suggested nuking Gaza and he was removed from post that same day). During the last 73 years, the population of Gaza has grown year on year. It is now estimated at 778,187. In 1950, the population of Gaza was 63,444. Gaza has grown by 22,104 in the last year, which represents a 2.92% annual change. As Bluechev often says on here, the Palestinians will outgrow Israelis over the next two decades. That isn’t genocide.

But I hate having fact based conversations like this because every statistic we are talking about is a human life lost. It’s an absolute tragedy. But it’s wrong to use emotive language like genocide when it isn’t correct.

So on the one hand you are falsely accusing Israel of committing genocide, whilst on the other hand, although you describe the Internet of Hamas as abhorrent, you give a modicum of understanding as to why the group whose stated aim actually is to commit genocide against the Jewish population.

2.
The border between Gaza and Egypt is not closed under the direction of the Israeli government. The border has been closed since Hamas too control in Gaza because a) Egypt are terrified of having Jihadist militants spilling into their territory and b) they do not want a repeat of the huge numbers of Palestinian refugees pouring into Egypt as previously happened in Jordan and Lebanon.

FYI Just last month I posted a link to comments made by the Egyptian Prime Minster, who said “We are prepared to sacrifice millions of lives to ensure that no one encroaches upon our territory,” Had this statement been made by the Israeli Prime Minister it would have been a ten page thread of condemnation. Just like Assad’s bombing of 350,000 Palestinians at the Yarmouk refugee camp, It didn’t elicit a single response from people who claim to care about Palestinians. No Jews, No News.

3.
I wasn’t getting into the “game of whose war was worse”. You did that with your statement that “that “the poorly framed "war on terror" was nowhere near as disproportionate as this[“/b]. I was simply pointing out that your statement was inaccurate.

I didn’t say whether I thought the invasion of Afghanistan was justifiable. It was . Or whether the invasion of Iraq was justifiable. It wasn’t. I simply used the numbers to challenge your statement.

4
I’ve already done that in my reply to Stokie.


There is an equivalence between Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians and Hamas' determination to eradicate Jews and Christians.

Military force has in no way destroyed ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc any more than this campaign will do to Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.

I am not sure where you get the idea that Israel is not intent on destroying the Palestinian people, because their actions (even before October let alone since) would suggest otherwise.

We are going around in circles. I will leave it there.

Have a good day.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:17 - Nov 19 with 2946 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:46 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

I now I'm back I’ll do you the courtesy of answering all the questions you put to me. And I’ll back up those answer with credible sources

Regarding the numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza. You state “I don't think it's right to cast doubt on the numbers unless you have something specific to back it up”.

Well firstly, I didn’t cast doubt on them I gave the disclaimer that these were Hamas figures. Something I’ll address later in my reply. However, if you are looking first something “specific to back it up” Is the President of the United States of America a decent enough source?

Joe Biden is on record as saying “I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed. I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war,” the US president said. “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using.”

I think it’s fair to say that Biden sees intelligence on the situation that that isn’t available to a couple of football fans on a message board.

Luke Baker, a former Reuters bureau chief in Jerusalem, also casts doubt on the reliability of the numbers : “It seems obvious that any self-respecting news organisation would make clear that Gaza’s health ministry is run by Hamas. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed,”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from

Other organisations, some of which you have named, and others in the above Guardian article I have linked, believe the figures to be fairly accurate. But even they accept that there is a grey area in differentiating combatants from civilians among the dead. As I said in my post, it beggars belief that the Israelis have only killed civilians and not a single member of Hamas has died. Bearing in mind that Hamas are the government, the police, the armed forces in Gaza etc.

So I don’t think it is unreasonable for me, when using numbers of civilian deaths* in my post to say “If Hamas are to be believed”.

Hamas control the Gaza Health Ministry. Just as you disputed the Covid figures coming out of Russia and China because their health ministries were controlled by Putin and Xi. People are entitled to put in the disclaimer that Hamas control the Gaza health ministry when using their figures.

So I don’t believe it’s fair for you to use language such as “poisoning the well”. If you read my post clearly, I wasn’t disputing the numbers killed. I put in the disclaimer, just as news outlets say certain claims by the IDF are unverified, and showed incredulity that very Gazan death was civilian. Not a single member of Hamas killed.

Of course, that’s just a distraction from the actual point I was making. NSB made a statement that “the poorly framed "war on terror" (his words, not mine) was nowhere near as disproportionate as this"

11,000 civilian deaths, if the figures from the Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry are to be believed*, in Gaza compared to approximately 400,000 civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" (again, his words, not mine) shows that statement to be quite wrong. Would be better for the debate if that point was actually addressed rather than the minutiae of language used in my post.

Moving on to your points regarding my question 4. You make two separate points although they are related. One regarding my view of the BBC, and in particular the face to camera option given by Jeremy Bowen. And one reading whether Hamas use Schools, Hospitals and other civilian areas to carry out their operations. I’ll address the BBC point first.

Taking aside from the fact that the BBC refuse to call Hamas terrorists, there reporting has been very shoddy. When a Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket hit the Al Ahli hospital, not only was the BBC quick to blame Israel, the reporter went as far to say that the sort of rocket could only have come from Israel (an opinion not a report) but the number of fatalities reported by the Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry wasn't questioned.

There's still no evidence that 500 people died, yet the BBC expressed no scepticism at the time.

Then there is this utter embarrassment of shoddy reporting



Jeremy Bowen is a journalist. Yet in that piece he isn’t reporting on what he has seen. Whether you think the stash of munitions is sufficient to amount to a "military base" is beside the point. Jeremy Bowen was bending over backwards to come up with an explanation as to why they might not even belong to Hamas at all.

“It’s not inconceivable that, I don’t know, perhaps the security department of the hospital might have [Kalashnikovs], certainly the police do”

Does hospital security also normally have grenades, explosive belts, and Hamas insignias? Rather than applying Occam's Razor, Jeremy Bowen strains every sinew to cast doubt on the claim that the hospital was being used by Hamas. He’s acting like a counsel for the defence rather than an independent reporter. Any excuse other than the obvious.

The IDF have also released footage of tunnels and munitions at other hospitals.

As for schools, I didn’t make any mention of the school that was bombed yesterday. I wasn’t aware of that at the time if my post. I stated “how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals”. Schools in the plural, not a specific school.

This is a well documented Hamas tactic and part of their human shield strategy, which was widely exposed during the 2014 conflict.

Again, I’ll call in a former President of the USA to reiterate that point.

“And Hamas is really smart. When they decide to rocket insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populace areas. And they are smart. So they try to put the Israelis in the position of either not defending or killing innocent civilians”.



NATO
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

Former USAID Gaza/West Bank Mission Director


CNN
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-incl

UNRWA
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-s

Your final point “You say each civilian death is a tragedy but also seem to imply "what are the IDF supposed to do". I don't think that's a very clear position. Can you let us know what you think they should do?

Israel are at war after the barbarity I described in my op. I have no doubt that there can only be one outcome. The absolute defeat and removal of Hamas from Gaza.

They are responsible for every civilian death in Gaza. And they don’t give a toss about the people or the loss of life.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770918

What do I expect the IDF to do? Not cut off water or electricity. That is a war crime for which I believe Netanyahu should spend the rest of his life in a cold cell.

I expect the IDF to carry out its campaign within the laws of war. Give civilians a chance to vacate the areas they intend to target in advance. They drop thousands of leaflets on the civilian population warning when and where attacks are going to take place. Israel are probably one of the few armies in the world that do this in modern times. It’s something that the allies did for the French population when carrying out bombing raids against the Nazis in occupied territory. And just like the Nazis refusing to let the people leave for safety, Hamas have attempted to stop thousands of civilians leaving Gaza. Many attempting to leave have been shot by Hamas. No doubt included in those civilian casualty figures.

Giant Stow linked an incredible series of telephone calls between the IDF and a Palestinian civilian government between. Incredibly detailed.

'I’m calling from Israeli intelligence. We have the order to bomb. You have tw by giant_stow 8 Nov 2023 12:20
...hours'

Realise this is on the BBC home page, so loads will have seen it, but in case you missed it, quite an insight into the war:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079



It would take some sort of heartless bastard not to be affected by the daily scenes we are seeing win our TV screens coming out of Gaza and feel no emotion. It’s unbearable seeing fathers carrying the bodies of bloodied dead or maimed babies. As a father myself, I couldn’t even to begin to imagine this happening to one of my own children. But this is war. And I’ve yet to see a war where innocents weren’t killed. 7000 innocent civilians were killed during NATO’s campaign against ISIS. But the outcome was that ISIS lost its territories and their terror campaign against western targets has greatly diminished.

We didn’t see the dead babies and injured children being beamed to our screen on a daily basis during that operation. We just ignorantly let NATO carry out their job and we are all the safer for it. Are we to deny Israel’s right to take similar actions against Hamas in light of October 7th? Should Israel be expected to fight their war under higher standards than those of NATO?

Well that’s very easy for me to say, and easy for others to counter in the comfort of our own middle class homes. We can give opinions knowing that very little of this will affect us.

If Hamas are using schools and hospitals as bases of operations, then under international law they are a legitimate target. I’m not comfortable with that. It is impossible to evacuate patients from hospitals with very little warning. So I do not support that action in any way. I’ve said that before.

So in answer to your last question “Can you let us know what you think they should do?” I don’t have an answer. Neither do you or most people around the world. A ceasefire? No. All that does is allow Hamas to re group and re arm. People whose views you would respect more than mine are of the same opinion.





Like Bernie Saunders my only temporary solution is a humanitarian pause to allow more civilians to find safe refuge and get in food, water, power and shelter for people.

Im happy to come back to you with any reply you give me Stokie but anyone else wanting to challenge me on the above,I won’t be making multiple replies. I’ve laid out my position. People are free to agree or disagree with them. And I’m not spending my Sunday doing this all day plus I’m also going back out for the day.

*I’ve used the words “If Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry are to be believed” rather than “If Hamas are to be believed” if you prefer that. But the two are the same.


I'll be honest, that is a huge reply with a lot of references and I simply don't have time to cover it all so I will reply with the time I have available right now so as not to keep you waiting.

Sources

There is too much to quote directly but you certainly did cast doubt on the casualties twice in the same paragraph using the caveat "Hamas sources".

With regards to Biden, he's got to say certain things to keep his home voters onside, he's been doing it all the way through. You cited him saying “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using" when I specifically referenced MSF and the UN. Both organisations which don't have vested interests. Saying that Biden has access to more intelligence is fine but you've not given any actual evidence on numbers or how that intelligence is used. Just saying someone is more knowledgeable without any evidence is an appeal to authority fallacy.

Citing covid is rather strange given I clearly referenced no governmental entities and you've even agreed they were roughly in agreement on the numbers. If you concede there is rough agreement then why even mention "if Hamas are to be believed" if it's not to cast doubt on the numbers?

I didn't reference anything about the war on terror or comparisons to other conflicts so I am not sure why you are citing them in your reply to me? However since you want me to respond to as much as possible I think your assumptions are invalid and I will explain why:

You are using linear extrapolation to try and compare casualties (quite distasteful in itself but since we are doing it) and that's flawed method. You need to weight the data by the duration of conflict and the size of the population otherwise it's simply not comparable.

If we do this then:

Population scaling factor = x22

Conflict duration scaling factor = x48 (96 months vs 2 months)

Scaling the Iraq war to the population and duration of the current Gaza conflict gives ~380 casualties (400,000/22/48)

Clearly that is a flawed analysis but it does highlight that if you attempt to measure apples to apples then what has happened in Gaza thus far has been horrific. It does seem like the casualties aren't happening as quickly now so that would also affect the above analysis.

Reporting and evidence from IDF

You've given a very detailed response on this and I can't do a full reply justice at the moment.

With regards to the BBC, just because some things have been proven to be incorrect it doesn't automatically tarnish all future reporting which seemed to be your previous stance (this is a genetic fallacy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy). My comments were specifically about the UN school and the latest hospital raid to which we haven't seen any evidence of Hamas bases. It's not right to refer to bases in these places before it has been confirmed.

"Like Bernie Saunders my only temporary solution is a humanitarian pause to allow more civilians to find safe refuge and get in food, water, power and shelter for people."

This simply isn't possible though. There isn't enough space in the Gaza Strip given there have also been attacks in the south and even when they shelter in UN controlled safe buildings those buildings are attacked. I find it hard to believe that the UN allows Hamas to construct bases under their buildings but perhaps I am wrong if evidence can be provided.

I guess in general I am confused by your position. You clearly state that Hamas must be defeated but that the IDF must work within the rules of law. This clearly isn't happening but you've said there can't be a ceasefire. Given this I don't see how the two positions can be squared. Happy for you to expand further on this to correct me if you feel this isn't correct.

SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 15:28]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:31 - Nov 19 with 2907 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Nov 19 by Nthsuffolkblue

There is an equivalence between Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians and Hamas' determination to eradicate Jews and Christians.

Military force has in no way destroyed ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc any more than this campaign will do to Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.

I am not sure where you get the idea that Israel is not intent on destroying the Palestinian people, because their actions (even before October let alone since) would suggest otherwise.

We are going around in circles. I will leave it there.

Have a good day.


I think you're maybe being a little loose with language there (or hope you are).

" Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians"

"I am not sure where you get the idea that Israel is not intent on destroying the Palestinian people, because their actions (even before October let alone since) would suggest otherwise."

Are you saying that Israel wants to eradicate *all* the Palestinians, or just Hamas?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:36 - Nov 19 with 2889 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:31 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

I think you're maybe being a little loose with language there (or hope you are).

" Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians"

"I am not sure where you get the idea that Israel is not intent on destroying the Palestinian people, because their actions (even before October let alone since) would suggest otherwise."

Are you saying that Israel wants to eradicate *all* the Palestinians, or just Hamas?


Do you think their actions are directed towards Hamas or their actions are treating the civilian population in exactly the same way?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:46 - Nov 19 with 2863 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:31 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

I think you're maybe being a little loose with language there (or hope you are).

" Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians"

"I am not sure where you get the idea that Israel is not intent on destroying the Palestinian people, because their actions (even before October let alone since) would suggest otherwise."

Are you saying that Israel wants to eradicate *all* the Palestinians, or just Hamas?



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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:49 - Nov 19 with 2848 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:36 - Nov 19 by Nthsuffolkblue

Do you think their actions are directed towards Hamas or their actions are treating the civilian population in exactly the same way?


I think the Israeli Gov* is directing its war at Hamas. They wouldn't bother warning ordinary Palestinians to move out of the way if the goal was the total eradication of the all Palestinian people. In fact, if eradication was the goal, it would be done by now.

do you really think thats what the Israeli govt is bent on murdering all Palestinians?! If so, whats the evidence pf that policy? I think I must be misunderstanding you - apologies if thats the case.

* to be clear, there're are plenty of dissenting voices in Israel - you're talking about the govt position, not 100% of the population.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:05 - Nov 19 with 2806 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:46 - Nov 19 by noggin




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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:06 - Nov 19 with 2804 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:31 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

I think you're maybe being a little loose with language there (or hope you are).

" Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians"

"I am not sure where you get the idea that Israel is not intent on destroying the Palestinian people, because their actions (even before October let alone since) would suggest otherwise."

Are you saying that Israel wants to eradicate *all* the Palestinians, or just Hamas?


They certainly want to eradicate any idea of a Palestinian state. They believe Israel should be from the "river to the sea". But its anti semitic for one side to have that view.
-1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:08 - Nov 19 with 2801 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:49 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

I think the Israeli Gov* is directing its war at Hamas. They wouldn't bother warning ordinary Palestinians to move out of the way if the goal was the total eradication of the all Palestinian people. In fact, if eradication was the goal, it would be done by now.

do you really think thats what the Israeli govt is bent on murdering all Palestinians?! If so, whats the evidence pf that policy? I think I must be misunderstanding you - apologies if thats the case.

* to be clear, there're are plenty of dissenting voices in Israel - you're talking about the govt position, not 100% of the population.


I think that Palestinian people, in any numbers, are an acceptable piece of collateral for the operation (as far as Israel is concerned), which is as much about retribution as any practical solution.

I think that bottling 2m people into a 10km by 10km area with no services or aid is genocidal.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 16:21]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:15 - Nov 19 with 2767 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:49 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

I think the Israeli Gov* is directing its war at Hamas. They wouldn't bother warning ordinary Palestinians to move out of the way if the goal was the total eradication of the all Palestinian people. In fact, if eradication was the goal, it would be done by now.

do you really think thats what the Israeli govt is bent on murdering all Palestinians?! If so, whats the evidence pf that policy? I think I must be misunderstanding you - apologies if thats the case.

* to be clear, there're are plenty of dissenting voices in Israel - you're talking about the govt position, not 100% of the population.


Let's flip that around and ask, would they bomb the safe areas they have been told to move to? Would they cut off fuel, water, food, and electricity? Would they continue to ignore the pleas of aid agencies to allow them to provide humanitarian aid?

There is a lot of propaganda going on from both sides as with any conflict but the clear actions of Israel's Government are not those of one that cares about the lives of Palestinian citizens nor even of Israeli hostages.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:31 - Nov 19 with 2724 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:17 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue

I'll be honest, that is a huge reply with a lot of references and I simply don't have time to cover it all so I will reply with the time I have available right now so as not to keep you waiting.

Sources

There is too much to quote directly but you certainly did cast doubt on the casualties twice in the same paragraph using the caveat "Hamas sources".

With regards to Biden, he's got to say certain things to keep his home voters onside, he's been doing it all the way through. You cited him saying “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using" when I specifically referenced MSF and the UN. Both organisations which don't have vested interests. Saying that Biden has access to more intelligence is fine but you've not given any actual evidence on numbers or how that intelligence is used. Just saying someone is more knowledgeable without any evidence is an appeal to authority fallacy.

Citing covid is rather strange given I clearly referenced no governmental entities and you've even agreed they were roughly in agreement on the numbers. If you concede there is rough agreement then why even mention "if Hamas are to be believed" if it's not to cast doubt on the numbers?

I didn't reference anything about the war on terror or comparisons to other conflicts so I am not sure why you are citing them in your reply to me? However since you want me to respond to as much as possible I think your assumptions are invalid and I will explain why:

You are using linear extrapolation to try and compare casualties (quite distasteful in itself but since we are doing it) and that's flawed method. You need to weight the data by the duration of conflict and the size of the population otherwise it's simply not comparable.

If we do this then:

Population scaling factor = x22

Conflict duration scaling factor = x48 (96 months vs 2 months)

Scaling the Iraq war to the population and duration of the current Gaza conflict gives ~380 casualties (400,000/22/48)

Clearly that is a flawed analysis but it does highlight that if you attempt to measure apples to apples then what has happened in Gaza thus far has been horrific. It does seem like the casualties aren't happening as quickly now so that would also affect the above analysis.

Reporting and evidence from IDF

You've given a very detailed response on this and I can't do a full reply justice at the moment.

With regards to the BBC, just because some things have been proven to be incorrect it doesn't automatically tarnish all future reporting which seemed to be your previous stance (this is a genetic fallacy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy). My comments were specifically about the UN school and the latest hospital raid to which we haven't seen any evidence of Hamas bases. It's not right to refer to bases in these places before it has been confirmed.

"Like Bernie Saunders my only temporary solution is a humanitarian pause to allow more civilians to find safe refuge and get in food, water, power and shelter for people."

This simply isn't possible though. There isn't enough space in the Gaza Strip given there have also been attacks in the south and even when they shelter in UN controlled safe buildings those buildings are attacked. I find it hard to believe that the UN allows Hamas to construct bases under their buildings but perhaps I am wrong if evidence can be provided.

I guess in general I am confused by your position. You clearly state that Hamas must be defeated but that the IDF must work within the rules of law. This clearly isn't happening but you've said there can't be a ceasefire. Given this I don't see how the two positions can be squared. Happy for you to expand further on this to correct me if you feel this isn't correct.

SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 15:28]


Just a quick reply whilst waiting for the Mrs. But this stood out for me ,which I find incredibly annoying.

“ I didn't reference anything about the war on terror or comparisons to other conflicts so I am not sure why you are citing them in your reply to me? “

You didn’t. But NthSuffolkBlue did, and it was my reply to him that you jumped on and took one line about “if Hamas are to believed” and stripped the rest of that reply out of all context. So I put the context in.

That’s it from me for the day.

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