| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked 14:48 - Dec 4 with 16293 views | Woolfenthen |
2 years on, who would have imagined where would be |  | | |  |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 19:37 - Dec 5 with 2762 views | Mullet |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 16:08 - Dec 4 by bobbyramsey |
Paul Cook deserves a lot of credit for having the guts to dismantle the previous sh!tshower…. |
No he doesn't. |  |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 19:40 - Dec 5 with 2760 views | Mullet |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 08:43 - Dec 5 by Steve_M |
Cook managed six weeks of decent form, from the Lincoln match to Wycombe, outside of that he performed objectively worse than Lambert with the same players and failed to get anything much out of the players he brought in.
It's remarkable just how generous some still are to a manager who did an appalling job here. |
It's delusional b0llocks at worst and disappointing revisionism from a place of "all's well..." The bloke was beyond useless and that was with the experience to know better, and being given everything he wanted. | |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 20:26 - Dec 5 with 2708 views | patrickswell |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 17:49 - Dec 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's just that on one hand you say "Top 2 wasn't out of the question... We were 2 points off the playoffs with a game in hand... it was a good opportunity to get us promoted..." and on the other (referring to Lambert) "We were certainly not making the playoffs... we were on a downward spiral." The first statements contradict the second ones.
I appreciate new manager bounce is a thing but it doesn't always work. I just think it's harsh to lay all the blame at Cook's door for that bit of his tenure. He was an experienced manager with a good pedigree up to that point, so if it was that easy to get in the play offs (and the players were good enough) then why didn't we? I find it hard to believe the answer is simply Cook became a rubbish manager overnight. |
Without wishing to do a Mach tribute act, Cook’s start was compounded by him working with a squad of players that had spent two and a half years embracing failure and mediocrity whenever they got the chance. I can defend Chambers/Skuse/Sears because they had been part of the club when it went through its only successful phase between 2009 and 2022, but Edwards, Nolan, Nsiala, Norwood, Judge and other post 2018 signings had brought nothing. Dozzell and Downes were either anonymous or stomping around like they wanted to punch a hole in the wall. The capitulation in form over those last 16 games over 2020/21 - which if I’m right includes the second longest goal drought in our history - seemed utterly appropriate for that band of players. By the end of that season, I was sick of the sight of them and eager to see them gone.
But once Cook repeated the same errors with his own signings, he was a dead man walking. |  | | |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 20:57 - Dec 5 with 2686 views | Herbivore |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 17:49 - Dec 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's just that on one hand you say "Top 2 wasn't out of the question... We were 2 points off the playoffs with a game in hand... it was a good opportunity to get us promoted..." and on the other (referring to Lambert) "We were certainly not making the playoffs... we were on a downward spiral." The first statements contradict the second ones.
I appreciate new manager bounce is a thing but it doesn't always work. I just think it's harsh to lay all the blame at Cook's door for that bit of his tenure. He was an experienced manager with a good pedigree up to that point, so if it was that easy to get in the play offs (and the players were good enough) then why didn't we? I find it hard to believe the answer is simply Cook became a rubbish manager overnight. |
The fact that a shambles of a manager like Lambert had us top 6 and not far off the top 2 surely suggests that with the same squad an allegedly competent manager like Cook ought to have at least managed to cement a top 6 place? I don't think what clive is saying is contradictory. |  |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 23:10 - Dec 5 with 2650 views | TractorFrog |
Paul Cook did far worse than Paul Lambert with the exact same players. He then was given the budget to sign a load of great ones and still had us mid table. He did some good recruitment through reputation but at Ipswich was an appalling manager. Worse than Lambert.
I think he effectively signed a load of players with brilliant reputations, they all performed worse than expected under him, then were coached into even better players than expected by McKenna. I wouldn’t give Cook any credit for the current success, apart from having done well in the past to persuade more players to join. |  |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:06 - Dec 6 with 2569 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 20:57 - Dec 5 by Herbivore |
The fact that a shambles of a manager like Lambert had us top 6 and not far off the top 2 surely suggests that with the same squad an allegedly competent manager like Cook ought to have at least managed to cement a top 6 place? I don't think what clive is saying is contradictory. |
"We were certainly not making the playoffs... we were on a downward spiral"
"Lambert had us top 6 and not far off the top 2."
You can think what you like, but that's a textbook definition of the word contradiction. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:09 - Dec 6 with 2551 views | Herbivore |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:06 - Dec 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"We were certainly not making the playoffs... we were on a downward spiral"
"Lambert had us top 6 and not far off the top 2."
You can think what you like, but that's a textbook definition of the word contradiction. |
Sure, if you edit out a lot of other important words from his post you can certainly try and paint it that way. But that would be disingenuous now, wouldn't it? | |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:15 - Dec 6 with 2538 views | _clive_baker_ |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:06 - Dec 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"We were certainly not making the playoffs... we were on a downward spiral"
"Lambert had us top 6 and not far off the top 2."
You can think what you like, but that's a textbook definition of the word contradiction. |
I don't see that it's a contradiction at all.
Lambert didn't have us doing well enough to get into the playoffs. We were outside of them when he was sacked, our run rate wasn't playoff levels, and the recent form certainly wasn't. On that basis I don't think he would've got us into them had he stayed on. Due to our fast start we were still in touching distance, but we were trending down.
My point was that I think we had a squad capable of doing more than we were showing under Lambert, a manager who was the very definition of 'losing the dressing room'. Once Lambert stepped back we won 3 on the trot, and then Cook came in and averaged 1.2 ppg for the remaining 16 games. I think that could've and should've been bettered. |  | | |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:16 - Dec 6 with 2532 views | BlueBadger |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 19:50 - Dec 4 by Herbivore |
Oh Officer (D)ibble is still with us, still having the odd pop at Mullet and Badger but not going so far as to say they've killed the club anymore. Think even he realises he can't really sustain that one anymore. [Post edited 4 Dec 2023 19:57]
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I just wish I'd known the power I had. If I'd known that by me calling for a manager to go on TWTD would have influenced decisions so much I'd have been calling for Lambert's sacking the second he bought his first supporters' bus full of beer. |  |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:53 - Dec 6 with 2468 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:09 - Dec 6 by Herbivore |
Sure, if you edit out a lot of other important words from his post you can certainly try and paint it that way. But that would be disingenuous now, wouldn't it? |
I've selected the worst bits to strengthen my point, obviously, but I haven't omitted anything that changes the meaning (or my point). We were either likely to make the play offs or we were on a downward spiral, you can't have it both ways. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:58 - Dec 6 with 2455 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:15 - Dec 6 by _clive_baker_ |
I don't see that it's a contradiction at all.
Lambert didn't have us doing well enough to get into the playoffs. We were outside of them when he was sacked, our run rate wasn't playoff levels, and the recent form certainly wasn't. On that basis I don't think he would've got us into them had he stayed on. Due to our fast start we were still in touching distance, but we were trending down.
My point was that I think we had a squad capable of doing more than we were showing under Lambert, a manager who was the very definition of 'losing the dressing room'. Once Lambert stepped back we won 3 on the trot, and then Cook came in and averaged 1.2 ppg for the remaining 16 games. I think that could've and should've been bettered. |
I totally get what you mean, I just think it's a little unfair on Cook to say, 'Well this guy wasn't going to do it with this lot of players, but let's blame this other guy for also not doing it with the same set of players.'
When two experienced managers fail to get them going, you have to start to wonder if it's the players. And indeed they haven't pulled up trees since, have they? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:06 - Dec 6 with 2428 views | _clive_baker_ |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:58 - Dec 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I totally get what you mean, I just think it's a little unfair on Cook to say, 'Well this guy wasn't going to do it with this lot of players, but let's blame this other guy for also not doing it with the same set of players.'
When two experienced managers fail to get them going, you have to start to wonder if it's the players. And indeed they haven't pulled up trees since, have they? |
I hear that point, think I recognised it too in a previous post. There's certainly a question mark over the players. Although I guess the other argument is if we all agree Lambert was a useless turd and Cook did no better, then by definition he's as useless a turd as Lambert.
If not, then was Lambert actually doing OK with what he had? It's possible I guess, but I think it's more likely that both managers underperformed. Cook's squad for his for 1st game had Wilson, Bishop, Dozzell, Norwood, Woolfenden, Downes, Jackson, Parrot, Chambers etc. Not world beaters, but most have proven themselves at that level or higher since. We shouldn't have been getting slapped 3-0 by Northampton Town. | | | |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:07 - Dec 6 with 2422 views | SE1blue |
It’s not an entirely reliable benchmark, but you don’t see Pep, Klopp or Arteta drinking tea from polystyrene cups on the training pitch
Maybe it was that and his voice, but he always felt like we had hired a manager from the Fast Show. |  |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:10 - Dec 6 with 2410 views | Radlett_blue |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 23:10 - Dec 5 by TractorFrog |
Paul Cook did far worse than Paul Lambert with the exact same players. He then was given the budget to sign a load of great ones and still had us mid table. He did some good recruitment through reputation but at Ipswich was an appalling manager. Worse than Lambert.
I think he effectively signed a load of players with brilliant reputations, they all performed worse than expected under him, then were coached into even better players than expected by McKenna. I wouldn’t give Cook any credit for the current success, apart from having done well in the past to persuade more players to join. |
Indeed, Cook was better than Hurst in that at least he had some idea of what a good League 1 player was. And that's about it. |  |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:12 - Dec 6 with 2404 views | orfordbuoy |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:07 - Dec 6 by SE1blue |
It’s not an entirely reliable benchmark, but you don’t see Pep, Klopp or Arteta drinking tea from polystyrene cups on the training pitch
Maybe it was that and his voice, but he always felt like we had hired a manager from the Fast Show. |
Cook used to have a cuppa during the match. That goes in the positive column. |  | | |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:30 - Dec 6 with 2381 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:06 - Dec 6 by _clive_baker_ |
I hear that point, think I recognised it too in a previous post. There's certainly a question mark over the players. Although I guess the other argument is if we all agree Lambert was a useless turd and Cook did no better, then by definition he's as useless a turd as Lambert.
If not, then was Lambert actually doing OK with what he had? It's possible I guess, but I think it's more likely that both managers underperformed. Cook's squad for his for 1st game had Wilson, Bishop, Dozzell, Norwood, Woolfenden, Downes, Jackson, Parrot, Chambers etc. Not world beaters, but most have proven themselves at that level or higher since. We shouldn't have been getting slapped 3-0 by Northampton Town. |
I'd agree with most of what you say there, the only difference is Cook bought the majority of the spine we still have... and he didn't get anywhere near as long as Lambert.
As a side note, I'd completely forgotten about James Wilson. Solid if unspectacular League 1 defender. Also Teddy Bishop! I thought he was going to be a star. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:32 - Dec 6 with 2371 views | Herbivore |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 10:53 - Dec 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've selected the worst bits to strengthen my point, obviously, but I haven't omitted anything that changes the meaning (or my point). We were either likely to make the play offs or we were on a downward spiral, you can't have it both ways. |
Well you removed the rather important part about the 3 games in a row we won when Matt Gill was basically caretaker whilst Lambert's sacking was being negotiated. That run put us back into the top 6 and suggested a competent coach doing the basics could get us top 6. When that important context is left in there really isn't any contradiction at all in what Clive is saying. | |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 12:05 - Dec 6 with 2327 views | N2_Blue |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:42 - Dec 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm not denying how brilliantly McKenna's been since he came in, but the players did all know each others strengths and weaknesses, patterns of play etc. by the time he arrived. Which they obviously didn't when Cook brought them all in.
I'm not saying another fortnight and they'd have clicked, but I did think Cook was jettisoned too early (without the benefit of hindsight of what came next), particularly given how much he changed the team overnight. McKenna's methods have been super fast - unprecedentedly so. That doesn't detract from my belief that managers (more mortal ones) usually need a certain amount of time. Cook only had one transfer window, if I remember rightly. Or only one meaningful one.
If we'd jettisoned Cook and got in someone akin to Hurst, that would've been a disaster. We got lucky in that regard, plus of course Ashton's diligence. But even he couldn't have known it would've gone this well with the new man.
Equally Cook might NEVER have got a tune out of them - perhaps he was just good at buying good players, not managing them into a team - I just personally don't think he was given enough time to find out (which is the nature of football these days, I appreciate). |
I agree with most of your football opinions but you are being way too generous to Cook here. He was not got rid of too early. Had a he gone a month earlier as I wanted McKenna would have likely got us into the playoffs.
We were a car crash by the time he left. Those games against Charlton and Barrow after he’d gone just show how lost the players were and they we were in dire straits. It was an absolute relief he was gone |  |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 12:38 - Dec 6 with 2295 views | Funge |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 12:05 - Dec 6 by N2_Blue |
I agree with most of your football opinions but you are being way too generous to Cook here. He was not got rid of too early. Had a he gone a month earlier as I wanted McKenna would have likely got us into the playoffs.
We were a car crash by the time he left. Those games against Charlton and Barrow after he’d gone just show how lost the players were and they we were in dire straits. It was an absolute relief he was gone |
That Charlton game was about as low as I've ever felt as an ITFC fan.
All the excitement of the new ownership, money being spent on the team, the ground filling up after COVID - and, still, that night at The Valley would make my top 5 worst ever Towun performances.
Walton was a 9 that night, and stopped the result becoming a quiz question. Everyone else was *atrocious*; the whole thing topped off by Nsiala squaring up to the away end at FT, and some bonehead starting on Walton shortly afterwards.
Genuinely felt like all the good work of the previous 9 months meant nothing; that we'd wasted so much goodwill & resource on that clown Cook, and that there really wasn't a way forwards... poor John McGreal, left with a colossal mess, and knowing he'd out of the door in a month, tops.
Almost precisely 2 years later, and here we are. |  | | |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 13:14 - Dec 6 with 2244 views | Steve_M |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 12:38 - Dec 6 by Funge |
That Charlton game was about as low as I've ever felt as an ITFC fan.
All the excitement of the new ownership, money being spent on the team, the ground filling up after COVID - and, still, that night at The Valley would make my top 5 worst ever Towun performances.
Walton was a 9 that night, and stopped the result becoming a quiz question. Everyone else was *atrocious*; the whole thing topped off by Nsiala squaring up to the away end at FT, and some bonehead starting on Walton shortly afterwards.
Genuinely felt like all the good work of the previous 9 months meant nothing; that we'd wasted so much goodwill & resource on that clown Cook, and that there really wasn't a way forwards... poor John McGreal, left with a colossal mess, and knowing he'd out of the door in a month, tops.
Almost precisely 2 years later, and here we are. |
Evans and Morsy sulked their way through that match. Fraser may have sulked his way through it too or just been too crap and unathletic to run, it was really hard to tell.
I think by then I was past the disappointment stage having reached the point where, in my view, Cook was clearly wasting a massive opportunity far earlier, possibly in August after Burton.
It says a lot for McGreal I think that he got a half-decent performance out of the same players at Wigan a few days later and a very good one against Sunderland the following week. [Post edited 6 Dec 2023 14:04]
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 13:47 - Dec 6 with 2198 views | N2_Blue |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 12:38 - Dec 6 by Funge |
That Charlton game was about as low as I've ever felt as an ITFC fan.
All the excitement of the new ownership, money being spent on the team, the ground filling up after COVID - and, still, that night at The Valley would make my top 5 worst ever Towun performances.
Walton was a 9 that night, and stopped the result becoming a quiz question. Everyone else was *atrocious*; the whole thing topped off by Nsiala squaring up to the away end at FT, and some bonehead starting on Walton shortly afterwards.
Genuinely felt like all the good work of the previous 9 months meant nothing; that we'd wasted so much goodwill & resource on that clown Cook, and that there really wasn't a way forwards... poor John McGreal, left with a colossal mess, and knowing he'd out of the door in a month, tops.
Almost precisely 2 years later, and here we are. |
I was there that night as well. Probably the lowest I’d felt as a Town fan because it just seemed to be no end to the cycle of appointing terrible managers who failed and when I saw how the team played that night despite some good players on paper, I couldn’t see how ANYONE would get us resembling a half decent team again….
And then Ashton found a certain Keiran McKenna. Whatever Ashton does from now on that has to go down as one of the best decisions in Town history. We could have appointed a number of managers who would have been seen as decent but who I don’t think would have got us promoted any time soon especially when you see what happened with the points totals of Plymouth Wednesday Barnsley the following season. | |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 13:58 - Dec 6 with 2188 views | _clive_baker_ |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 13:14 - Dec 6 by Steve_M |
Evans and Morsy sulked their way through that match. Fraser may have sulked his way through it too or just been too crap and unathletic to run, it was really hard to tell.
I think by then I was past the disappointment stage having reached the point where, in my view, Cook was clearly wasting a massive opportunity far earlier, possibly in August after Burton.
It says a lot for McGreal I think that he got a half-decent performance out of the same players at Wigan a few days later and a very good one against Sunderland the following week. [Post edited 6 Dec 2023 14:04]
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Evans' performance that night was absolutely dire.
That was a dark day, thankfully I had too many pints in London Bridge pre match to remember much of it. | | | |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 14:39 - Dec 6 with 2157 views | BigCommon |
After listening to KD's interview on Talk Sport.. I thought it was a massively nice touch of Cook, to keep kieron involved in the Chesterfield set up, during his long hospital stay and throughout his recovery.. Feeling wanted and useful, must have helped no end psychologically , in Kieron's recovery...
As for Cook. I like him.. But it's clear to everyone, now. That we've got the right man here as manager.. That said, I wish PC well and hope he gets Chesterfield promoted. His Ipswich chapter had its own personal knock backs. And, with hindsight, was probably, too big a job for him , even without those set backs.
2 years has flown by.... |  | | |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 14:52 - Dec 6 with 2142 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 11:32 - Dec 6 by Herbivore |
Well you removed the rather important part about the 3 games in a row we won when Matt Gill was basically caretaker whilst Lambert's sacking was being negotiated. That run put us back into the top 6 and suggested a competent coach doing the basics could get us top 6. When that important context is left in there really isn't any contradiction at all in what Clive is saying. |
Those 3 games could've been the 'new manager coming' bounce so often talked about. Players would've been putting in the extra effort knowing Gill was only a caretaker and the new boss was watching. And/or we happened to be up against 3 rubbish teams.
Either way, I'm not sure it's a big enough sample size to suggest Matt Gill turned it around, and therefore it ought to be easy for the next man. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 14:57 - Dec 6 with 2133 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| 2 years ago today, Paul Cook sacked on 12:05 - Dec 6 by N2_Blue |
I agree with most of your football opinions but you are being way too generous to Cook here. He was not got rid of too early. Had a he gone a month earlier as I wanted McKenna would have likely got us into the playoffs.
We were a car crash by the time he left. Those games against Charlton and Barrow after he’d gone just show how lost the players were and they we were in dire straits. It was an absolute relief he was gone |
A large dollop of hindsight there, most of us didn't even know who McKenna was a month before, let alone how good he would be. My comments are all based on what we knew at the time, not what's transpired since, otherwise I'd have swerved Hurst, Lambert AND Cook and gone straight for McKenna. We'd be in the Champions League by now! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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