| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply 16:53 - Dec 20 with 10190 views | Mullet |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67754359
There's a 12 week consultation open now if you want to have your say. I can say, it has been a minefield in recent years. We've had pupils who have totally hidden their transition from parents and lived two lives effectively.
Parents who were totally onboard and included us in everything. Parents who seemed to blame the school and refuse to accept their kids' choices leaving us in a difficult position.
I just don't see how this really solves anything, or makes a decision. Safeguarding, no matter the issue is always the top priority. In the same way you always call a child by what they prefer whether that's a shortened version or you don't use a certain surname because that parent isn't around or whatever, deadnaming a kid just seems abhorrent to me still.
This is becoming yet another strand of social care where schools are just expected to fix it seemingly. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:04 - Dec 20 with 3973 views | DJR |
One issue that me concerns me is that the way it appears to treat gay and transgender people differently.
Each is a potentially difficult thing to announce to one's parents, and it is not uncommon for people never to come out to their parents, even if they have come out in different situations. Indeed, I have a gay friend now in his 60s who has never mentioned his sexuality to his parents.
But in future (if I have not misunderstood the position), in the case of a gay person who comes out in school, the school will be under no obligation to contact the parents, but in the case of a transgender person they will.
That does not seem to me fair, and to my mind may well be challengeable under the Equalities Act. |  | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:04 - Dec 20 with 3967 views | BlueBadger |
It speaks volumes about this government that they're perfectly willing to use the safety and wellbeing of kids(and kids who are particularly vulnerable to bullying, for example) as pawns in their endless obsession with culture wars over actually doing anything helpful.
Section 28 by the backdoor, innit. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 17:27]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:08 - Dec 20 with 3927 views | giant_stow |
I don't envy you handling this stuff which goes right to the crux of 'self'.
My God son is trans - his best mate also was (took their own life a few weeks ago). My nephew is also trans and although older than school age went through some tough times, but seems to come out the other side now and is now on hormone therapy.
As if teaching wasn't hard enough as it is. Top respect. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:24 - Dec 20 with 3808 views | DJR |
Interesting to know whether the proposed guidance is on all fours with the Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines which concern things like contraception and therapeutic support for those under 16 without parental consent.
And when it comes to the Children Act 1989, the welfare of the child is the paramount consideration.
It seems to me that this government, when it comes to transgender children, is heading in a different direction to the philosophy that underlines the areas mentioned above. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 17:37]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:36 - Dec 20 with 3738 views | BlueBadger |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:24 - Dec 20 by DJR |
Interesting to know whether the proposed guidance is on all fours with the Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines which concern things like contraception and therapeutic support for those under 16 without parental consent.
And when it comes to the Children Act 1989, the welfare of the child is the paramount consideration.
It seems to me that this government, when it comes to transgender children, is heading in a different direction to the philosophy that underlines the areas mentioned above. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 17:37]
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Not just kids, they're quite happy to align themselves with some very unpleasant people regarding trans people in general.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/12/08/conservative-approved-list-gender-recogni | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:38 - Dec 20 with 3721 views | DJR |
Absolutely. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:40 - Dec 20 with 3681 views | BlueBadger |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:38 - Dec 20 by DJR |
Absolutely. |
Can't wait for 10 years down the line when there'a who load of the current shower making mealy-mouthed 'I regret that decision' statements, just like they've been doing in recent times with removing Section 28 and gay marriage. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:46 - Dec 20 with 3647 views | itfcjoe |
I think it has become an impossible situation for schools, parents and kids as it is and will continue to be so - but looking at things purely as a parent I’d want to be informed if it was my children and not deliberately kept in the dark by the school - that’s the one thing example in the BBC article that would frighten me personally.
One parent told BBC News she was "completely horrified" when she found out her daughter had been using a different name and pronouns at school without her knowledge.
"At no point did they tell me what was actually going on," she said.
"They actively hid it from me for about four months, despite me being in touch with the school and expressing concerns about my daughter's wellbeing."
It is a minefield for use of single sex facilities as well, when the needs of all children have to be considered |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 17:50 - Dec 20 with 3611 views | BlueBadger |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:46 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
I think it has become an impossible situation for schools, parents and kids as it is and will continue to be so - but looking at things purely as a parent I’d want to be informed if it was my children and not deliberately kept in the dark by the school - that’s the one thing example in the BBC article that would frighten me personally.
One parent told BBC News she was "completely horrified" when she found out her daughter had been using a different name and pronouns at school without her knowledge.
"At no point did they tell me what was actually going on," she said.
"They actively hid it from me for about four months, despite me being in touch with the school and expressing concerns about my daughter's wellbeing."
It is a minefield for use of single sex facilities as well, when the needs of all children have to be considered |
If kids are scared to come out to their parents, the problem isn't with the school. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:55]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:01 - Dec 20 with 3541 views | Clapham_Junction |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 17:50 - Dec 20 by BlueBadger |
If kids are scared to come out to their parents, the problem isn't with the school. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:55]
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Exactly. Schools having to out kids to their parents is not a road I think we want to go down. |  | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:05 - Dec 20 with 3518 views | lowhouseblue |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 17:50 - Dec 20 by BlueBadger |
If kids are scared to come out to their parents, the problem isn't with the school. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:55]
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the guidance does allow for that. teachers will be able to withhold information if they believe a child could be put at significant risk. but other than where there is a real welfare concern, i'm not sure schools should assume they're a better judge of a child's interests than the parents - after all kids are only in school for a minority of their time. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:05 - Dec 20 with 3516 views | factual_blue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:01 - Dec 20 by Clapham_Junction |
Exactly. Schools having to out kids to their parents is not a road I think we want to go down. |
It's almost as though our odious government is trying to create a conflict with teachers. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:07 - Dec 20 with 3494 views | DJR |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:46 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
I think it has become an impossible situation for schools, parents and kids as it is and will continue to be so - but looking at things purely as a parent I’d want to be informed if it was my children and not deliberately kept in the dark by the school - that’s the one thing example in the BBC article that would frighten me personally.
One parent told BBC News she was "completely horrified" when she found out her daughter had been using a different name and pronouns at school without her knowledge.
"At no point did they tell me what was actually going on," she said.
"They actively hid it from me for about four months, despite me being in touch with the school and expressing concerns about my daughter's wellbeing."
It is a minefield for use of single sex facilities as well, when the needs of all children have to be considered |
But your children, if they were gay, might want to keep their sexuality from you, and will continue to be able to hide it from you even if the school knows, so far as I am aware.
Why should trans children be treated differently, apart from the fact that attitudes in relation to trans people appear to be much like attitudes were in relation to gay people perhaps 30 or 40 years ago, or much more recently in the case of many members of the Tory party? [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:11]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:10 - Dec 20 with 3446 views | factual_blue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:40 - Dec 20 by BlueBadger |
Can't wait for 10 years down the line when there'a who load of the current shower making mealy-mouthed 'I regret that decision' statements, just like they've been doing in recent times with removing Section 28 and gay marriage. |
No. They'll regret the impact the decision may have had. They won't ever, ever actually apologise for what they do. In this matter, or any other. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:11 - Dec 20 with 3434 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:07 - Dec 20 by DJR |
But your children, if they were gay, might want to keep their sexuality from you, and will continue to be able to hide it from you even if the school knows, so far as I am aware.
Why should trans children be treated differently, apart from the fact that attitudes in relation to trans people appear to be much like attitudes were in relation to gay people perhaps 30 or 40 years ago, or much more recently in the case of many members of the Tory party? [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:11]
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Do you not think there is a difference between gender identity and sexuality then? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:12 - Dec 20 with 3426 views | Herbivore |
Amongst the current shower of c**ts we have in office, Ms Badenoch is a veritable downpour. Undermining the experiences of many trans people and using them as a political football because, you know, clearly a small minority population that is generally subject to ridicule and bullying is the cause of all of our ills, not 13 years of Tory incompetence. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:14 - Dec 20 with 3369 views | factual_blue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:12 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
Amongst the current shower of c**ts we have in office, Ms Badenoch is a veritable downpour. Undermining the experiences of many trans people and using them as a political football because, you know, clearly a small minority population that is generally subject to ridicule and bullying is the cause of all of our ills, not 13 years of Tory incompetence. |
She appears to be sue-ellen braverman, but with none of the redeeming features. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:17 - Dec 20 with 3335 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:11 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
Do you not think there is a difference between gender identity and sexuality then? |
In what way? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:18 - Dec 20 with 3323 views | DJR |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:11 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
Do you not think there is a difference between gender identity and sexuality then? |
I am not sure if that is a trick question because I am not an expert in this area.
My only concern is the impact on trans children which appears to be different to that on gay children. And I am not convinced that that different treatment is justified.
Indeed, no doubt if this were the 80s, Badenoch would be acting similarly in relation to gay children but thankfully the world has moved on since then. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:27 - Dec 20 with 3226 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:17 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
In what way? |
Well sexuality is who you are attracted to, and can be as public or as private as you want it to be…..whereas gender identity is the literal identity someone wants in every facet of their life
I don’t see why they need to be linked, and why a school would look to ‘out’ someone re their sexual preferences when they won’t be being acted on in a school setting generally | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:28 - Dec 20 with 3221 views | tcblue |
There's a horrific, high profile case which has just been sentenced which outlines the problems young trans people can face (not that the school in this case appears to have been a contributor, it just highlights all the more the need for sensitivity, understanding and care).
I wish at one point in the future I'll not have to say again "this is the worst government in my living memory". This horrible mob just seem to keep one upping themselves [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:32]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:33 - Dec 20 with 3136 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:27 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
Well sexuality is who you are attracted to, and can be as public or as private as you want it to be…..whereas gender identity is the literal identity someone wants in every facet of their life
I don’t see why they need to be linked, and why a school would look to ‘out’ someone re their sexual preferences when they won’t be being acted on in a school setting generally |
You don't think people act on their sexual preferences in a school setting? I don't see that they are particularly different to be honest, they are both key parts of an individual's identity and things people choose to display or hide to certain degrees in different contexts. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:34 - Dec 20 with 3129 views | factual_blue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:28 - Dec 20 by tcblue |
There's a horrific, high profile case which has just been sentenced which outlines the problems young trans people can face (not that the school in this case appears to have been a contributor, it just highlights all the more the need for sensitivity, understanding and care).
I wish at one point in the future I'll not have to say again "this is the worst government in my living memory". This horrible mob just seem to keep one upping themselves [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:32]
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...and fancy that, the worst government of all time put this 'consultation' out on the same day that the verdict was announced.
What a remarkable coincidence. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:36 - Dec 20 with 3098 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:07 - Dec 20 by DJR |
But your children, if they were gay, might want to keep their sexuality from you, and will continue to be able to hide it from you even if the school knows, so far as I am aware.
Why should trans children be treated differently, apart from the fact that attitudes in relation to trans people appear to be much like attitudes were in relation to gay people perhaps 30 or 40 years ago, or much more recently in the case of many members of the Tory party? [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:11]
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The answer is that (1) their sexuality is private to them, unless they want to actively express it whereas changing gender, and being referred to differently etc in school is a very public thing. They are qualitatively different in that regard; (2) gender issues of this type often carry with them all manner of other issues, including mental health problems. Parents who are appraised of what is going on can at least seek assistance if needed. Excluded parents could make all sorts of other issues. How does a parent know to be aware of gender related bullying etc without knowledge of it ; (3) in terms of trust and working relationship with a school, it is plainly a problem to have someone actively referred to differently in school without their parents' knowledge. At that point you are effectively requiring the school to participate in a deception (i.e. when they revert to biological gender and names in a report or letter). Also, these things are going to get back to parents sooner or later. Kids talk to each other, as do their parents.
This is not to say that I agree with anything Badenoch has ever said or done. Her comments are ignorant and abhorrent, and encourage bigotry (quite intentionally). The issue at the core- should a school inform parents if a child is actively requesting to be / being referred to as a different gender at school is however a difficult one and very much case sensitive. Age, maturity etc are going to be major factors, as gaining some understanding of parents' likely position and attitude.
In short- there is a genuine and reasonable debate to be had about whether schools should inform parents. But anything prescriptive (per Badenoch) is fraught with difficulty. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:37 - Dec 20 with 3090 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:28 - Dec 20 by tcblue |
There's a horrific, high profile case which has just been sentenced which outlines the problems young trans people can face (not that the school in this case appears to have been a contributor, it just highlights all the more the need for sensitivity, understanding and care).
I wish at one point in the future I'll not have to say again "this is the worst government in my living memory". This horrible mob just seem to keep one upping themselves [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 18:32]
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In fairness, there has been no finding that it was trans motivated so I am not sure its relevant to this issue. | | | |
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