| Southgate on borrowed time? 21:00 - Mar 23 with 6354 views | bournemouthblue |
we are not winning anything with this mentality, it's slow, ponderous and negative
I know Konsa was enforced but his next subs are Gomez (to left back), Dunk and Mainoo
That's not exactly rolling the dice is it? |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:20 - Mar 24 with 1197 views | itfcjoe |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:18 - Mar 24 by bluejacko |
And what have we WON apart from one comp? If we we are good enough to be in the top 5 you would have thought we could have actually achieved a lot more. How many tournaments have those other top 5 teams won in the time Southgate’s tenure? [Post edited 24 Mar 9:22]
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Oh OK, we are just going mega simplistic on this are we? |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:26 - Mar 24 with 1185 views | bluejacko |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:12 - Mar 24 by Cheltenham_Blue |
It's as though some people weren't alive during the Ron Greenwood, Graham Taylor or Steve McLaren years. |
One nations cup since 1966! Now that is progress isn’t it? We do actually have the players now but until they are used correctly we will still come out second best. |  | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:01 - Mar 24 with 1147 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:18 - Mar 24 by bluejacko |
And what have we WON apart from one comp? If we we are good enough to be in the top 5 you would have thought we could have actually achieved a lot more. How many tournaments have those other top 5 teams won in the time Southgate’s tenure? [Post edited 24 Mar 9:22]
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Two. The other two of the top 5 have not won anything, and neither of those have made a final either unlike England
It’s almost like international tournaments only come around every 2 years and require a lot of luck and fine margins going your way to actually win |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:01 - Mar 24 with 1147 views | OldFart71 |
May I start by saying it's easy to kick a man when he's down. Unfortunately over the years, 66 apart, we haven't had an England good enough to win either the European Championship or the World Cup. We become deluded that each generation is the golden generation. For whatever reason many young players such as the likes of our own loan player in Hutchinson come onto the scheme seemingly world beaters only to fail after a few years in the spotlight. Too much money, too much hype, I don't know ? As for the England set up the people that run it want a yes man and not someone who is bold and off the cuff. Someone who talks the talk. Having said that we have had the likes of Terry Venables who did extremely well, but still failed. More to do with the players failings than the manager. | | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:19 - Mar 24 with 1126 views | Ryorry |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 21:32 - Mar 23 by bournemouthblue |
I've been critical of Southgate for some time, I'm not convinced we will win anything under him
We need a more modern coach who can get the best out of this new crop of players! |
McKenna taking over England right now would imho have the same effect on our national team as him taking over us from Cook - but thankfully the FA’s balls are as tiny pinheads, and there’s as much chance of them making that appointment as there is of me becoming the next astronaut to fly to the moon!
Bet they’re keeping an eye on his progress with a view to sometime in the future perhaps though. It’d shock none of us if he went on to become the 3rd England success to come from ITFC. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:42 - Mar 24 with 1098 views | itfcjoe |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:19 - Mar 24 by Ryorry |
McKenna taking over England right now would imho have the same effect on our national team as him taking over us from Cook - but thankfully the FA’s balls are as tiny pinheads, and there’s as much chance of them making that appointment as there is of me becoming the next astronaut to fly to the moon!
Bet they’re keeping an eye on his progress with a view to sometime in the future perhaps though. It’d shock none of us if he went on to become the 3rd England success to come from ITFC. |
The problem is Southgate gets the players once every couple of months for a few days, sometimes he doesn’t have his best players, sometimes he has to call up players who don’t really fit the system he wants because they are playing so well and then make it fit.
McKenna has the luxury of having a squad, having them every week and implementing patterns in there which are known by players like the back of their hand. When he wants a player he can pinpoint them to fit in with his systems.
The standards in club football are undoubtedly higher than international - they are very different jobs though | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:45 - Mar 24 with 1086 views | J2BLUE |
He's been decent but I think we could do with a change after the Euros, unless we win them.
It just feels a bit boring and stale. I still look back to the Italy game at Wembley and think they were there for the taking with 30 mins left.
Should be remembered fondly but for me, I would like to see a change. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:59 - Mar 24 with 1063 views | chicoazul |
Criticism of Southgate goes way beyond normality. He has no other RB on the bench so couldn’t replace like for like. He’s given us the second most successful English team ever. He’s going to leave the next manager with some brilliant players who he has nurtured and brought on. It’s immensely hard to win a tournament in the face of Ronaldo Messi and Mbappe, and penalties. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:09 - Mar 24 with 1041 views | jayessess |
Don't think there's much worth in worrying about poor performances in friendlies, especially when they're three quarters of the way through a long season that will end with a long international tournament. There's zero chance that Southgate's on borrowed time or significantly in danger of losing his job before the Euros.
Southgate's tournament record is very good. It's better than any predecessors other than Ramsey. Nature of international football is that it inevitably comes down to tight knockout games that can go either way, you're not going to hire a manager who magically makes that not the case.
International managers are almost always B-listers anyway (Roberto Martinez was a club manager of no significant repute, he's now had a go at not one, but two, top ten international teams). Would be surprised if sacking him resulted in a really transformative appointment, particularly when you're just embedding the new person in the same FA. The role of England manager is really to be a figurehead for a system these days.
Style of play's hardly electrifying but there's an argument that's just the nature of international teams and the kind of risk-averse football that tends to win you tournaments. Don't think the finalists in the last three tournaments England have contested have been especially expansive teams.
In terms of personnel selection. Think with international teams you often end up fussing about the supporting cast but whether England win Euro 2024 will mainly be about getting the best out of their truly elite players (Bellingham, Kane, Rice, Stones, Saka, maybe Foden), more than who fills the other slots. My main criticism of Southgate is that he's often not pro-active enough in finding solutions to actual problems (of which England really have three - LB, CB, CM). There's an opportunity cost for persisting with players whose club form and participation is inconsistent, it prevents you from seeking out new ways of organising things that might suit other players who could grow into their roles. But, honestly, I don't see that deciding 15 months ago that you move from Henderson/Phillips to Gallagher/Ward-Prowse is a decision that's fundamental to your chances. [Post edited 24 Mar 11:23]
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:22 - Mar 24 with 1008 views | chicoazul |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:09 - Mar 24 by jayessess |
Don't think there's much worth in worrying about poor performances in friendlies, especially when they're three quarters of the way through a long season that will end with a long international tournament. There's zero chance that Southgate's on borrowed time or significantly in danger of losing his job before the Euros.
Southgate's tournament record is very good. It's better than any predecessors other than Ramsey. Nature of international football is that it inevitably comes down to tight knockout games that can go either way, you're not going to hire a manager who magically makes that not the case.
International managers are almost always B-listers anyway (Roberto Martinez was a club manager of no significant repute, he's now had a go at not one, but two, top ten international teams). Would be surprised if sacking him resulted in a really transformative appointment, particularly when you're just embedding the new person in the same FA. The role of England manager is really to be a figurehead for a system these days.
Style of play's hardly electrifying but there's an argument that's just the nature of international teams and the kind of risk-averse football that tends to win you tournaments. Don't think the finalists in the last three tournaments England have contested have been especially expansive teams.
In terms of personnel selection. Think with international teams you often end up fussing about the supporting cast but whether England win Euro 2024 will mainly be about getting the best out of their truly elite players (Bellingham, Kane, Rice, Stones, Saka, maybe Foden), more than who fills the other slots. My main criticism of Southgate is that he's often not pro-active enough in finding solutions to actual problems (of which England really have three - LB, CB, CM). There's an opportunity cost for persisting with players whose club form and participation is inconsistent, it prevents you from seeking out new ways of organising things that might suit other players who could grow into their roles. But, honestly, I don't see that deciding 15 months ago that you move from Henderson/Phillips to Gallagher/Ward-Prowse is a decision that's fundamental to your chances. [Post edited 24 Mar 11:23]
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Only two of those players are “truly elite”. Half our team is definitely not truly elite. Kane and Bellingham would probably get in any team in the world. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:32 - Mar 24 with 979 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:26 - Mar 24 by bluejacko |
One nations cup since 1966! Now that is progress isn’t it? We do actually have the players now but until they are used correctly we will still come out second best. |
Getting to Semi Finals and a Final in successive tournaments is remarkable progress from where we have been since 1974.
Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round
Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables
Then, finally,
Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final
Looks like 'progress' to me. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:37 - Mar 24 with 977 views | jayessess |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:22 - Mar 24 by chicoazul |
Only two of those players are “truly elite”. Half our team is definitely not truly elite. Kane and Bellingham would probably get in any team in the world. |
Depends where you want to put the bar really. If John Stones, easily one of the best players in Man City's run to win the Champions League, isn't a truly elite centre back, who is?
(And if the bar is higher than that, are there many international teams with more than 2 players above it?) | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:44 - Mar 24 with 947 views | Ryorry |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 10:42 - Mar 24 by itfcjoe |
The problem is Southgate gets the players once every couple of months for a few days, sometimes he doesn’t have his best players, sometimes he has to call up players who don’t really fit the system he wants because they are playing so well and then make it fit.
McKenna has the luxury of having a squad, having them every week and implementing patterns in there which are known by players like the back of their hand. When he wants a player he can pinpoint them to fit in with his systems.
The standards in club football are undoubtedly higher than international - they are very different jobs though |
Fair points 👍 | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:33 - Mar 24 with 894 views | ibbleobble |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:22 - Mar 24 by chicoazul |
Only two of those players are “truly elite”. Half our team is definitely not truly elite. Kane and Bellingham would probably get in any team in the world. |
So would Saka, Foden and Rice. That’s half a team. | | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:33 - Mar 24 with 895 views | chicoazul |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:37 - Mar 24 by jayessess |
Depends where you want to put the bar really. If John Stones, easily one of the best players in Man City's run to win the Champions League, isn't a truly elite centre back, who is?
(And if the bar is higher than that, are there many international teams with more than 2 players above it?) |
The bar is picking a world or even European 11, the first choice players in those positions. I’m not even sure if Stones is the best CB at City. He’s good though. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:37 - Mar 24 with 887 views | chicoazul |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:33 - Mar 24 by ibbleobble |
So would Saka, Foden and Rice. That’s half a team. |
The English disease of the superiority complex. Saka is NOT better than Mbappe Vinicius Coman or Salah. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:43 - Mar 24 with 867 views | Trequartista |
It was a friendly. The goal was to avoid injury at a crucial point in the league season. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 13:42 - Mar 24 with 807 views | ibbleobble |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:33 - Mar 24 by ibbleobble |
So would Saka, Foden and Rice. That’s half a team. |
Wasn’t the debate whether they are “elite” not the best of the “elite”? | | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:37 - Mar 24 with 762 views | jayessess |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:33 - Mar 24 by chicoazul |
The bar is picking a world or even European 11, the first choice players in those positions. I’m not even sure if Stones is the best CB at City. He’s good though. |
Ok, but if the bar is best player in the World (or Europe) in their position, having 2 is pretty brilliant, isn't?
Even if we're discounting Rice and Stones (who are probably decent candidates for best player in Europe for their position), is there an international team with obvious claim to have 3 or more?
Think you're right that Saka's not up there with Mbappe, Vini Jr or Salah, although he's absolutely ahead of Kingsley Coman, who despite having 5 years and 23 more caps on Saka, trails him quite substantially on goals and assists already. [Post edited 24 Mar 14:42]
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 15:13 - Mar 24 with 734 views | Vic |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 08:11 - Mar 24 by itfcjoe |
How much more dice rolling do you want? It’s a friendly without your talismanic striker and your best other attacker which he’s got to use to try and answer some questions about who fills the squad for the Euros. The wrong time of season for a game as clubs pulling players out left right and centre.
3rd in the world v 4th in the world. Southgate has turned England into one of the consistent best sides in the world over the last 5 years from the relative shambles it had been in the decade before it |
Thank you Joe - the voice of reason and common sense as always.
He might not be flamboyant in play or persona, but He’s been the most successful manager since SAR. Should he have done better? Maybe, but he’s done better that El Tel, Hoddle, SBR and Sven - all of whom had ‘a golden generation’ of players.
But it’s odd though, because For all that I still wouldn’t him as Town manager! But I suspect it’s the difference between tournament football and club football. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 15:39 - Mar 24 with 716 views | J2BLUE |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:43 - Mar 24 by Trequartista |
It was a friendly. The goal was to avoid injury at a crucial point in the league season. |
That makes zero sense. Why bother playing if that is the case? | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 18:33 - Mar 24 with 646 views | southnorfolkblue |
In the immediate short term, no he’s not on borrowed time. It would be frankly nuts to get rid of him before the summer.
Whether he’s still here after the Euros will depend on how we perform at the tournament. A strong showing and I reckon he’s here until the next WC. I think it’s too simplistic to say that he has to win them, because luck always plays a part - you can’t legislate for Kane missing a penalty in the quarterfinals against France for example. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 19:25 - Mar 24 with 612 views | MK1 |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 21:16 - Mar 23 by textbackup |
The day Toney plays is the day I stop watching England. Absolute weapon of a bloke |
Don't watch Tuesday then, reckon he will start. |  | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 08:31 - Mar 25 with 513 views | only_one_sir_bobby |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:02 - Mar 24 by itfcjoe |
A World Cup semi, a European Championship final and Nations League title whilst being ranked in the top 5 for as long as we ever have been.
More knockout wins than any other manager, by far, more knockout wins on his own than basically all managers since Sir Alf combined so it has worked in the ‘big games’ |
This is the most minor of points in the grand scheme of things, but when did we win the Nations League? We won a penalty shootout to finish 3rd, but don't think we've actually won it, have we? Thought we got relegated from the top group in fact? | | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 08:44 - Mar 25 with 503 views | itfcjoe |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 08:31 - Mar 25 by only_one_sir_bobby |
This is the most minor of points in the grand scheme of things, but when did we win the Nations League? We won a penalty shootout to finish 3rd, but don't think we've actually won it, have we? Thought we got relegated from the top group in fact? |
My mistake, you are right - I thought we'd won it that time which shows how little it's valued at! | |
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