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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason 14:06 - Dec 2 with 81891 views

Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this?
Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked.

	In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:50 - Dec 5 with 1301 views

vapour_trail

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:19 - Dec 5 by lowhouseblue

i'm questioning whether very broad survey categories allow the experience of victims to be accurately understood. it's not a novel question about survey methodology. response subjectivity in the range of things that might amount to 'violence or abuse' means that we then have quite a hazy picture. wallace is another interesting example. telling crude and laddish jokes (the initial accusation) is very different from touching and groping (the new accusations). not being able to distinguish between the two would make it hard to assess the seriousness of the accusations.

I’m calling bullsh1t. You’re part of the problem.

	Trailing vapour since 1999.
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-1

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:05 - Dec 5 with 1255 views

lowhouseblue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:50 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
I’m calling bullsh1t. You’re part of the problem.

well it could be worse. i could pretend to know secret stuff in order to push a false conspiracy theory. now that really would be serious bullsh1t. now please follow someone else around the board eh.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:11 - Dec 5 with 1207 views

BanksterDebtSlave

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:19 - Dec 5 by lowhouseblue

Is this the same forensic eye that you applied to incidents of antisemitism in the Labour Party and the resulting fear of the Jewish community to cross roads, go to Central London and stuff.

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:12 - Dec 5 with 1213 views

Ryorry

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:17 - Dec 5 by Europablue

Up until you mentioned Christians, I was with you. You might be right, but I'll push back and say that the comparison between Guehi and Morsy is not apples and oranges. Morsy refused to take part, Guehi took part, but changed what was said.

It would be nice if people could try and think more rationally and less emotionally. We have to think about how something is to be applied fairly and consistently and works in a case where you agree with what is being done or said as well as when you disagree.

I would probably criticize someone for not wearing a poppy, but that person should still have the right to opt out. We are still free to criticize Guehi and Morsy. We should even be free to criticize how different religions are treated and special allowances are made for religious people vs non-religious people.

There was an excellent article, written by (iirc) a WW2 veteran a few years ago in the Guardian about why he would no longer be wearing a poppy on Remembrance weekends, but I can’t find it -anyone else have a link? It was well worth a read if you can find it.

Meanwhile, found this, also excellent -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/08/wear-white-poppy-remembran


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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:17 - Dec 5 with 1191 views

vapour_trail

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:05 - Dec 5 by lowhouseblue
well it could be worse. i could pretend to know secret stuff in order to push a false conspiracy theory. now that really would be serious bullsh1t. now please follow someone else around the board eh.

More bullsh1t. I don’t think I’ve responded to one of your posts for about five years before this week mate.

Part of the problem.

	Trailing vapour since 1999.
Poll:	Should Gav and Phil limiti the number of polls?

-2

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:20 - Dec 5 with 1178 views

lowhouseblue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:17 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
More bullsh1t. I don’t think I’ve responded to one of your posts for about five years before this week mate. Part of the problem.

not bullsh1t as you know full well however much you might now pretend. those 5 years were very nice so please don't start it all again.

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:21 - Dec 5 with 1166 views

DJR

One of my best friends is gay. He is an only child and never told his parents: his dad is now approaching 100.

In 1993 he moved to Paris, and despite the fact that I am a liberal as they come, he never told me (or anyone else) before then that he was gay. He did, however, say that there was a reason he was moving to Paris but he wouldn't tell me what it was.

The following year I visited him there, and it was then that he told me he had moved to Paris because he was gay, and didn't think this was something he could have admitted or been when he was in England.

I suppose working in a City law firm before he left made his position even worse because in those days an admission that he was gay would have made him a pariah within the firm and with its clients, given the sort of attitudes that then prevailed.

In Paris he felt much more able to be himself (he is not in anyway flamboyant), and he still lives there 30 years later: I see him a couple of times a year.

Things may be slightly easier now, but most gay people must really struggle with coming out (or perhaps better "being themselves"), and knowing my friend as I do, I am not sure he would have behaved any differently now had he been 30 years younger.

[Post edited 5 Dec 2024 21:12]

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:22 - Dec 5 with 1159 views

vapour_trail

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:20 - Dec 5 by lowhouseblue
not bullsh1t as you know full well however much you might now pretend. those 5 years were very nice so please don't start it all again.

If you’re going to put yourself out there on the side of the perpetrator don’t be surprised when you’re called out on it.

You’re a nasty piece of work.

Part of the problem.

	Trailing vapour since 1999.
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-7

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:23 - Dec 5 with 1148 views

redrickstuhaart

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:50 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
I’m calling bullsh1t. You’re part of the problem.

He's certainly trying very hard to find reasons not to fully accept the obvious.

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:27 - Dec 5 with 1132 views

lowhouseblue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:22 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
If you’re going to put yourself out there on the side of the perpetrator don’t be surprised when you’re called out on it. You’re a nasty piece of work. Part of the problem.

"on the side of the perpetrator" jeez you have absolutely no self awareness. what happened to that guy whose story you claimed to know was true? how long did he get? jeez.

i know your m o full well, so off you go please.

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:47 - Dec 5 with 1047 views

vapour_trail

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:27 - Dec 5 by lowhouseblue
"on the side of the perpetrator" jeez you have absolutely no self awareness. what happened to that guy whose story you claimed to know was true? how long did he get? jeez. i know your m o full well, so off you go please.

Off you go please? What a strange individual you are. A libellous one at that.

I will leave you to it though.

Part of the problem.

	Trailing vapour since 1999.
Poll:	Should Gav and Phil limiti the number of polls?

-1

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:50 - Dec 5 with 1026 views

lowhouseblue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:47 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
Off you go please? What a strange individual you are. A libellous one at that. I will leave you to it though. Part of the problem.

thank you. let's both do that.

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:11 - Dec 5 with 964 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:45 - Dec 5 by tractorboy7777

Firstly, I feel it is quite offensive to suggest that you think a gay person would want to live their life ‘choosing to not come out’. Unless you have had the experience of being ‘in the closet’, you wouldn’t understand the fear you would have wondering whether your family, friends, colleagues would disown you for being your true self. This fear also starts at a young age and initiatives like the one at the weekend are there to help those, not to constantly tell straight people to be gay.

I only left school just over 10 years ago and there wasn’t any support at all, in fact I recall in sex education that a teacher point blankly ignored a question regarding homosexuality from another student.

In answer to your question about whether I still feel the need to be careful where to live, yes. Albeit they are less common now but you do still hear homophobic crimes against people.

Your 3rd comment sums up why there is the initiative. Players who don’t want to feel they need to come out currently have the fear that if someone were to find they are in a relationship/married to another gay person will they receive abuse. They shouldn’t have to have come out to the public, but they shouldn’t have the fear of abuse if someone were to find out and share it out of their control.

For the record, I don’t believe you are homophobic or against gay people but you need to understand how the realisation for someone who is gay at a young age can still affect their future life mentally and they then remove themselves from activities like football that they enjoy.

" I feel it is quite offensive to suggest that you think a gay person would want to live their life ‘choosing to not come out’"
I didn't mean anything like that, and I didn't mean to upset you. I meant to the extent that lifestyle is a choice it is the choice of being true to yourself or not and that is a horrible choice to be faced with.

Don't you think that the well-meaning reaction to a male footballer coming out would be maybe an even bigger disincentive to come out than the potential for abuse? There is a big reason why there are no out professional male footballers, and that is that they will no longer be that great player or average player, they would also become some kind of forced gay ambassador.

Maybe we might need to agree to disagree. I just don't think we should distinguish between straight and gay fans and I don't really think it is an appropriate forum to even bring up sexuality. It really should be a private matter.

If you were a gay Norwich supporter, I wouldn't have a problem with the gay part. Seriously though, one of my best friends is a Norwich supporter, I can't really say that there's nothing wrong with him, but apart from thinking yellow and green look good on a football kit and a canary is a good mascot, he's a decent bloke.

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:16 - Dec 5 with 938 views

J2BLUE

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:11 - Dec 5 by Europablue

There's at least two openly gay players.

	Truly impaired.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:17 - Dec 5 with 923 views

GlasgowBlue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:22 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
If you’re going to put yourself out there on the side of the perpetrator don’t be surprised when you’re called out on it. You’re a nasty piece of work. Part of the problem.

With a few exceptions, this debate has been extremely civil and at times incredibly moving. There has been a very small minority of posters whose contributions have been awful. Lowhouse certainly isn't one of them.

That you have chosen to ignore contributions from some of the worst but gone in two footed at Lowhouse suggests that this is historical antagonism rather than what he has actually posted. Which is a shame, as this thread has mostly shown the very best of TWTD, with people who have had similar historical antagonism putting aside their differences in order to show support for our LGBTQ+ fans and the wider community.

And I post this with all due respect and not to get involved in any further spats.

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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:20 - Dec 5 with 907 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:49 - Dec 5 by pointofblue

I can only speak for myself but my sexual preference feels like a defining feature. If I was heterosexual, I think I would be actively looking for and might already be in a relationship. As it is I don't want to enter one where I cannot be my true self, and I do not feel ready to be. I may never do.

No one, rightly, pours scorn or doubt on heterosexual relationships, but I do on others which shows how far we have to go for everyone to be treated the same.

[Post edited 5 Dec 2024 14:16]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I know a lot of gay people have that internalized hate that comes from the treatment of homosexual relationships in society in general and a lot of that comes from the time they grew up and was a formative part of their childhood.

I would hope for you that you can see the value in yourself and change your views and gain internal self-worth rather than wait for the world to change its views and give you external validation.

I do think that there is only one way to treat homosexual people the same as heterosexual people, and that it to actually treat them the same.

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:20 - Dec 5 with 902 views

DJR

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:11 - Dec 5 by Europablue

I wonder if you had similar objections to the Her Game Too campaign.

https://www.itfc.co.uk/news/2022/february/her-game-too-partnership/

“Sexist abuse and misogyny surrounding football has always been a big problem - so one of our biggest aims is to build a safer space for all female supporters.

“We are delighted we can work in partnership with Ipswich Town to raise awareness and create a safe space for female staff & supporters at Portman Road. We would like to thank Ipswich Town FC and their fans for the support."

[Post edited 5 Dec 2024 21:26]

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:21 - Dec 5 with 891 views

vapour_trail

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:17 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

And I post this with all due respect and not to get involved in any further spats.

Hilarious.

	Trailing vapour since 1999.
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I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 21:53 - Dec 5 with 792 views

Europablue

I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 15:04 - Dec 5 by Vegtablue

The key word you perhaps misunderstand in the definition you paste of 'tolerance' is the verb 'tolerate', which doesn't place restriction on one's ability to criticise and doesn't demand that a view be respected. As you demonstrate with your paste of 'respect''s secondary definition, there is a clear difference between respecting a view and respecting a person, and that person's right to hold a view that you may not respect.

I agree I misused 'tenets' in reference to homophobia as it isn't a creed, I should have referred to the religion, but not all wings of Islam believe that homosexuals are sinful beings who warrant persecution. I didn't want to generalise, but I did want to touch on the core issue we're dealing with in this case, that it is religious beliefs that caused Morsy to refuse the inclusivity message. And we know the widely held beliefs and teachings in Islam on homosexuality, as much as we don't know Morsy's own thoughts beyond that his views are instructed by his faith. Islam's teachings on homosexuality are widely available; sometimes the conversation indicates that it is shrouded in secrecy.

It impossible for you to reconcile the core problem with your nostalgic conception of tolerance, that intolerance has to be respected, because intolerance is in its nature the disrespect of something else. I accept that you don't like -phobia categories, so we'll consider examples in practice instead. The view that homosexuals live in sin and shouldn't be included in society, that is disrespectful of the group it is opposed to. Zero respect for gay people exists in that view. The view that white people are inferior and should be treated differently for the colour of their skin, that is the antithesis of respecting that group of people. These views directly, vehemently disrespect others, and yet in a warped version of tolerance they must be respected. No, unpalatable views must be endured in civilised society, providing they operate within the confines of legality, and that is tolerance.

I appreciate you making your points in good faith.
It's not a nostalgic conception of tolerance, it's that only one that works. I understand how to legislate to respect people's rights, but how do you legislate that people respect a person? Are you going to prosecute people for being unkind to others? I can't see a way that doesn't become authoritarian. That's why I'm talking about the distinction between legal measures enforced by the state and how we choose to freely associate. If I go to restaurant and they are just rude to me I won't go there again. If I went to a business and I was racially abused or someone else was racially abused, I wouldn't give them my custom. If a friend crossed a line, I wouldn't be friends with them anymore.
It doesn't upset me if someone views white people as inferior. They are entitled to hold a stupid view, it doesn't hurt me. If someone tells me that white people are not allowed to walk down a certain street and someone tries to enforce it, then I have a problem. What hurts me is if freedom of speech is suppressed because the whole of society is decayed. There only seems to tolerance of a minority speaking out about things. Muslims seem to be allowed to protest teaching children about homosexuality, but the government is considering to make Islamophobia illegal (Islamophobia basically means a dislike or criticism of Islam). Women should be able to freely express their concerns about the eroding of their rights. Even straight white men should have freedom of speech.
I'm respecting Morsy's right to have his beliefs, I'm not respecting his beliefs. If we were having a chat in a pub I would probably disagree with some of his beliefs and agree with others. Some things might even make me dislike him.
People in England think that we have freedom of speech, but we don't even understand what it involves and it only exists when you allow others to hold unpalatable views. Answer this question, what exactly are the definitive list of unpalatable views, and who decides what views you hold and how do you look into someone's mind and judge what they are thinking?
So yes, you have to accept that some people are hateful and you can't control them. In the context of a football match you can ban people for inappropriate chanting, but you can't ban someone for looking disparagingly at a gay couple or something like that.

-1

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:22 - Dec 5 with 730 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:17 - Dec 5 by urbanpenguin

This is an astonishing load of gaslighting, offensive garbage.

Frankly, I've had enough of a lot of the people on this thread not interested in listening, who have no empathy or care, but feel that they can speak on behalf of somebody else's lived experiences.

I also acknowledge it's a minority in this thread, however loud and ignorant, and I thank the few little who have privately messaged to express shock at the views and solidarity with those of us who are angry at the club and its captain

However, I will pick up on one bit of your bonfire of a post:

"In today's society there is a unique group of people who would not be comfortable coming out: male professional footballers. The reason for that is partly to avoid abuse, but mostly because players want to be judged on their football and sexuality is irrelevant and even positive coverage would be intolerable. Maybe an average footballer can come out while playing, but he's going to have to be an activist."

How on earth, in any conceivable way, could you possibly assert this with such assurance. You have repeatedly shown that you have no interest or empathy for the experiences of gay people, yet here you confidently explain why a gay footballer has not come out. I can't express how angry you make me, please stand down from talking on behalf of other people you clearly have no care or compassion for.

[Post edited 5 Dec 2024 17:20]

If you have quite stepped off your soap box. Empathy goes both ways. You can't expect people to just listen to everything you say and just accept it. It might shock you to hear, but you don't represent all gay people. Each person is an individual and gay people also talk to straight people. Of course it makes sense to listen to what gay people have to say on the topic. I have a good gay friend who absolutely hates the whole LGBT movement. He doesn't want to be judged as a gay man, but just as a person. Is that experience invalid?
Are you seriously going to tell me that you think that a gay footballer is going to come out and they are going to be happy with the attention even if it is mostly positive or neutral? You yourself are speculating on why a gay footballer has not come out. Read some testimonies. Thomas Hitzlsperger said "When I came out I got quite a reaction, it was quite intense, a lot of people talked about it. Hopefully, next time someone does exactly the same, we will not talk about it for that long and they can just get on with their career." Obviously he is talking about a negative aspect of even well-meaning people defining him as the gay player, rather than valuing him based on being a player.
Read what Robbie Rodgers said in this article:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/21974436
He is saying that there is a lot of negative attention from coming out, in addition to potential abuse there is the media circus, even though most of the coverage is positive it will be a distraction from playing and no-one wants to be remembered as the gay player, they want to be remembered as Messi, Harry Kane, or even Jason Cundy.

I have heard countless black, female, gay, or whatever people saying that they want to be judged by their characters, not by immutable traits. Am I supposed to ignore what they say because you tell me I can't form an opinion from my lived experience and from hearing about other people's lived experiences?
By all means challenge what I say, but don't be so arrogant to tell me that I have no care or compassion for my gay friends or anyone who does not have the same identity traits as me.

-8

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:32 - Dec 5 with 694 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:49 - Dec 5 by DropCliffsNotBombs

As soon as I saw that absolute cretin appear on the thread, this was sadly inevitable.

The poster in question is truly a terrible person and has shown it many times and on many subjects. Please PLEASE don't let his warped, vile post get to you - everybody can see it for what it is. This has been a thread largely full of empathy and it has been really refreshing to see people's views evolve as they have gained understanding - I've definitely learnt from it.

The vast majority of people here are decent, understanding and supportive - even where disagreement may exist as to elements of the debate. Do not let Europablue sully that.

Calling people names is a great way to come across as someone with a balanced view.
It does seem that someone who slightly disagrees with you or even is slightly misinformed is a vile and truly terrible person. Do you not hear yourself say that?
What have I said that is so offensive? That I believe that people who disagree with me should be allowed to express their opinions? That I think the club dealt with the situation in a fairly balanced manner? That I support the captain to not express an opinion and discreetly decline to take part in a campaign?
I don't really get how you are projecting words like "vile" onto me.
You just ignore any positive things I say that you would agree with too.
Honestly, you sound a bit emotionally unstable. Just go ahead and block me.

-6

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:39 - Dec 5 with 663 views

Ryorry

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 21:17 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

Would be a right bloomin shame if this previously civil thread were to get locked again, or even worse, deleted.

As Michael Palin once said when playing a character - "calm, calm, calm" ...


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-1

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:43 - Dec 5 with 632 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:18 - Dec 5 by Whos_blue

Deary me.
You're having a shocker here.
What complete bobbins.
I just dispair when I read garbage like this.
What are you talking about when you're referencing historical cases.
LGBT+ around the world are experiencing prejudice and violence TODAY.
This item might help you to educate yourself that the lived experience of some is nothing but fear and in some cases death. Death. For loving someone society (or religion) deems illegal or a sin, people are imprisoned, flogged or executed for identifying as LGBT+ every day.
I know you won't change your view, publically at least, but I think some of your posts on this most sensisitive of subjects have been terrible to read.

https://database.ilga.org/criminalisation-consensual-same-sex-sexual-acts

Honestly, there is a group of you guys including Mullet and a few other who don't respond to me in good faith. You enjoy your echo chamber a bit too much and your pile ons. You like to project that I am some kind of hateful troll. But, I do engage and I actually learn something from the people who are posting in good faith. You and your gang come across as ignorant and actually hateful in that some of you (not you to be fair) call me very unkind names. it's not constructive, but I support yours and their free speech.

You just changed the subject completely from attitudes towards homosexuality in the UK and now you talking about foreign countries and horrible things happening there that I find disgusting but have no influence on. What has any of that got to do with me? You seem to think you (and somehow me too) have way more influence and control over the world than you do.
It is not healthy to get upset about all the horrible things that are happening around the world when you had nothing to do with it and have no way of solving it.

-1

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:46 - Dec 5 with 608 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:50 - Dec 5 by vapour_trail
I’m calling bullsh1t. You’re part of the problem.

"part of the problem" it sounds like you are denouncing heretics against your religion. I know people being skeptical feels like they are attacking you, but if they are consistent, then they really are being skeptical.
It is very important to distinguish between different incidents based on the severity. At the very least don't give people the chance to deny the severity of the problem.

-2

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:51 - Dec 5 with 563 views

Europablue

My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:21 - Dec 5 by DJR

[Post edited 5 Dec 2024 21:12]

That is an interesting anecdote. Did he say anything to compare Paris and London and attitudes to homosexuality?
Sometimes it is just the fact that the other place is somewhere where no-one knows you and you can be yourself.
I'm a bit younger, so maybe it was different in 1993 to 2010 when I was living in London, because it seemed like a very progressive place.

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