| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason 14:06 - Dec 2 with 77754 views | chicoazul |
Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this?
Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:30 - Dec 4 with 1966 views | Plums |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:12 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Going off piste here slightly, I was at a friend's funeral last week who was a Roman Catholic.
Sadly, at my age. I'm going to more and more funerals each year but I've never seen anything like a Catholic funeral.
My friend was. a bit part player at her own funeral. No funny stories from friends or family. Just a Priest going on about sin. God and Jesus were mentioned far more than her and we were given ten minutes at what I thought was the start, where the Priest told us for think about our sins and ask God for forgiveness.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 19:24]
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Once you realise a Catholic funeral is basically a marketing exercise it all makes sense. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:40 - Dec 4 with 1934 views | Swansea_Blue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:12 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Going off piste here slightly, I was at a friend's funeral last week who was a Roman Catholic.
Sadly, at my age. I'm going to more and more funerals each year but I've never seen anything like a Catholic funeral.
My friend was. a bit part player at her own funeral. No funny stories from friends or family. Just a Priest going on about sin. God and Jesus were mentioned far more than her and we were given ten minutes at what I thought was the start, where the Priest told us for think about our sins and ask God for forgiveness.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 19:24]
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I went to a wedding that was just like that. Crackers. The priest was banging on about their doors closing and hoped they’d enjoyed their single life as nothing would be fun any more and woe betide them if they wanted fun. The most bizarre wedding I’ve ever been to, by far. I thought they were supposed to be happy occasions.
I’ve been to a few normal Catholic ceremonies. I quite like all the pomp. I enjoy seeing religious ceremonies when I travel too; you can’t beat a Buddhist morning prayers when you’re half way up a mountain the Himalayas. I only ever want to be an impartial observer though. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:06 - Dec 4 with 1857 views | GlasgowBlue |
Matt Lucas on homophobic abuse he has received at football.
He is a well known openly gay man. You can understand why some of the posters on this thread are reluctant to attend football matches with their partners.
And he is spot on with this: "If you're a player and that offends you less than wearing a rainbow-coloured armband for a couple of matches, then maybe you're part of the problem". [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:07]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:19 - Dec 4 with 1831 views | Ryorry |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:25 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Thanks for your interesting reply.
I'm amazed at the kaleidoscope of views which agree with some parts of a person's opinions nd not with others. It's unusual to have an internet forum that can handle a full spectrum of opinions and, aside from one or two unsavoury responses in the 30 pages on here, I think it has been an engaging and inclusive discussion.
Ultimately, though, humans being as they are, it's unlikely any one side of the debate will have been able to change the mind of another.
What I do hope is that we all have taken something from it that we didn't have before, be that respect, perspective, or knowledge. |
Agree with almost all your comments there - this place can be pretty full on, but it can also be brilliant - this thread’s one example, one of the best debates ever for me and I can’t think of any other place where it might happen online.
The only thing I disagree with you on is
“it's unlikely any one side of the debate will have been able to change the mind of another.”.
From what I’ve read, it already has done for a couple of people? And certainly added to the understanding of others, including myself (and from the sound of it, you too!). |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:28 - Dec 4 with 1813 views | Ryorry |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:00 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue |
In fairness to JC, he didn't write the rules. That was done by a conclave in 4th century Rome*.
I stand to be corrected as it's not something I'm particularly knowledgeable about. |
That’s why I wrote “*organised* religion”. I’ve got nothing against the fella himself - for all I know, he might even be quite annoyed at his words being misappropriated if he were still around! [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:33]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:31 - Dec 4 with 1804 views | DJR |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:00 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue |
In fairness to JC, he didn't write the rules. That was done by a conclave in 4th century Rome*.
I stand to be corrected as it's not something I'm particularly knowledgeable about. |
The rules evolved over time from around the time you mentioned.
Indeed, the Scottish and Irish surname MacTaggart (or its variations) means "son of the priest" because celibacy for priests only originated in the Middle Ages.
Indeed, according to Jason Berry of The New York Times, "The requirement of celibacy is not dogma; it is an ecclesiastical law that was adopted in the Middle Ages because Rome was worried that clerics' children would inherit church property and create dynasties." [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:33]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:34 - Dec 4 with 1780 views | Ryorry |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:31 - Dec 4 by DJR |
The rules evolved over time from around the time you mentioned.
Indeed, the Scottish and Irish surname MacTaggart (or its variations) means "son of the priest" because celibacy for priests only originated in the Middle Ages.
Indeed, according to Jason Berry of The New York Times, "The requirement of celibacy is not dogma; it is an ecclesiastical law that was adopted in the Middle Ages because Rome was worried that clerics' children would inherit church property and create dynasties." [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:33]
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The things you learn on here - brilliant! | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:35 - Dec 4 with 1776 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:06 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Matt Lucas on homophobic abuse he has received at football.
He is a well known openly gay man. You can understand why some of the posters on this thread are reluctant to attend football matches with their partners.
And he is spot on with this: "If you're a player and that offends you less than wearing a rainbow-coloured armband for a couple of matches, then maybe you're part of the problem". [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:07]
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that's truly appalling. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:45 - Dec 4 with 1750 views | DJR |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:28 - Dec 4 by Ryorry |
That’s why I wrote “*organised* religion”. I’ve got nothing against the fella himself - for all I know, he might even be quite annoyed at his words being misappropriated if he were still around! [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:33]
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I would put a word in for the Quakers. Whilst originally and loosely based on Christianity, they have no priests or dogma. And they have fairly enlightened views in relation to LGBT+ issues.
https://www.quaker.org.uk/faith/quaker-life/quakers-and-lgbt-inclusion [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:48]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 22:54 - Dec 4 with 1577 views | orfordbuoy |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 20:06 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Matt Lucas on homophobic abuse he has received at football.
He is a well known openly gay man. You can understand why some of the posters on this thread are reluctant to attend football matches with their partners.
And he is spot on with this: "If you're a player and that offends you less than wearing a rainbow-coloured armband for a couple of matches, then maybe you're part of the problem". [Post edited 4 Dec 2024 20:07]
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This needs to be seen by those who justify Morsy's stance regarding not standing up against discrimination and contrasts with an earlier post on here where a poster condescendingly informed me that his gay mate (as if no one else has one) couldn't give a monkeys about Morsy's refusal to support inclusion. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 04:04 - Dec 5 with 1419 views | Benters |
What about Manu last night one of their players wouldn’t wear a Rainbow warmup jacket so nobody wore one either. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 04:45 - Dec 5 with 1405 views | E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 04:04 - Dec 5 by Benters |
What about Manu last night one of their players wouldn’t wear a Rainbow warmup jacket so nobody wore one either. |
Indeed and from reading thousands of views about this 95% of them are in agreement with the stance Man Utd took. The majority on this post certainly going against the most common opinions on this matter. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 06:28 - Dec 5 with 1369 views | NewcyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 04:45 - Dec 5 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
Indeed and from reading thousands of views about this 95% of them are in agreement with the stance Man Utd took. The majority on this post certainly going against the most common opinions on this matter. |
Maybe that’s because the common opinion is not the same as that by the people that are actually affected by it?
Do you ever think that the people in this very thread who are being open and giving people an opportunity to learn what it is like for them are feeling pretty low?
They’re sharing very personal details to help educate.
Instead people try to downplay it, using words such as inaction, and gesture. When really people should just fücking do better.
Just because the common opinion is the easy one, doesn’t make it correct. Sometimes the facts are uncomfortable. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:27 - Dec 5 with 1310 views | Benters |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 04:45 - Dec 5 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
Indeed and from reading thousands of views about this 95% of them are in agreement with the stance Man Utd took. The majority on this post certainly going against the most common opinions on this matter. |
I think people are trying to support that particular community,then they are of course wanting to support Morsy,but his religious beliefs have thrown a spanner in the works.
Maybe they should have made someone else Captain ? | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:54 - Dec 5 with 1266 views | GlasgowBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 04:45 - Dec 5 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
Indeed and from reading thousands of views about this 95% of them are in agreement with the stance Man Utd took. The majority on this post certainly going against the most common opinions on this matter. |
The mens game has historically been followed by males full of testosterone and developed a laddish and blokeish culture. Homosexuality in the game is seen as a weakness and a way to bait the opposition fans or players. We still hear the Fashanu chant at games, although thankfully not so much these days. A “good looking” player with long hair or an Alice band still receives wolf whistles and cat calls. We see comments such “I couldn’t care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes but do they have to shove it down our throats 24/7”. We’ve seen a similar comment to that on here. What it really means is “get back in the closet”.
Its no surprise that a Facebook page called “benchwarmers” would attract a demographic that is less inclined to look favourably on a campaign to promote LGBTIQA+ welcomeness and inclusivity in what is still seen as a “man’s game”.
That doesn’t equate to the views of a majority of “benchwarmers” members being the same as the majority of the country as a whole.
And a majority view doesn’t necessarily make it a right view. 300 years ago the majority view would have been in favour of slavery. Less than 100 years ago, the majority view in some parts of the USA was that people of colour should have less rights than their white counterparts. We are moving into an age of more inclusivity and tolerance. That frightens some people and they are using support for Sam Morsy’s religious views as an outlet for their fears or bigotry. Which is pretty ironic, because I’d bet a hefty sum that these are the same people who spend their time on social media moaning about Muslims coming over here with “their Sharia Law” and other customs they deem “not British”. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 12:27]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:59 - Dec 5 with 1256 views | redrickstuhaart |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:27 - Dec 5 by Benters |
I think people are trying to support that particular community,then they are of course wanting to support Morsy,but his religious beliefs have thrown a spanner in the works.
Maybe they should have made someone else Captain ? |
This is what people have been suggesting. He is entitled to his view. People are entitled to have a strong opinion about that view. The view he appears to hold is not really compatible with captaincy at a club like ours.
People are inevitably having to wrestle with the very real footballing issues that would come with such a decision, in a camp where togetherness and character is so important. To hang the captain out to dry would be massively disruptive. To many, I suspect, the club and its progress is more important than the principle.
That said, we must not lose sight of the real possibility that we do not actually know his views and that there are difficult connected issues of community and family involved here. He could be absolutely supportive in his views, but not willing to expose friends or family to a backlash from his community. His choice is also less offensive than Guehi- who has actively made his view clear, imo, rather than just declining to take part.
On a connected note, I am fuming once again to hear McCoist justifying it all again on the radio this morning. His comments yesterday on Guehi were disgraceful and disingenuous. I am done with that show on principle. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 8:01]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 08:10 - Dec 5 with 1221 views | GlasgowBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:59 - Dec 5 by redrickstuhaart |
This is what people have been suggesting. He is entitled to his view. People are entitled to have a strong opinion about that view. The view he appears to hold is not really compatible with captaincy at a club like ours.
People are inevitably having to wrestle with the very real footballing issues that would come with such a decision, in a camp where togetherness and character is so important. To hang the captain out to dry would be massively disruptive. To many, I suspect, the club and its progress is more important than the principle.
That said, we must not lose sight of the real possibility that we do not actually know his views and that there are difficult connected issues of community and family involved here. He could be absolutely supportive in his views, but not willing to expose friends or family to a backlash from his community. His choice is also less offensive than Guehi- who has actively made his view clear, imo, rather than just declining to take part.
On a connected note, I am fuming once again to hear McCoist justifying it all again on the radio this morning. His comments yesterday on Guehi were disgraceful and disingenuous. I am done with that show on principle. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 8:01]
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Regarding your second paragraph, exactly this. One of the first comments on this thread was that discussing this issue could harm our club.
Could you give a quick summary of what McCoist has said please? | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 08:12 - Dec 5 with 1216 views | DJR |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:54 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue |
The mens game has historically been followed by males full of testosterone and developed a laddish and blokeish culture. Homosexuality in the game is seen as a weakness and a way to bait the opposition fans or players. We still hear the Fashanu chant at games, although thankfully not so much these days. A “good looking” player with long hair or an Alice band still receives wolf whistles and cat calls. We see comments such “I couldn’t care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes but do they have to shove it down our throats 24/7”. We’ve seen a similar comment to that on here. What it really means is “get back in the closet”.
Its no surprise that a Facebook page called “benchwarmers” would attract a demographic that is less inclined to look favourably on a campaign to promote LGBTIQA+ welcomeness and inclusivity in what is still seen as a “man’s game”.
That doesn’t equate to the views of a majority of “benchwarmers” members being the same as the majority of the country as a whole.
And a majority view doesn’t necessarily make it a right view. 300 years ago the majority view would have been in favour of slavery. Less than 100 years ago, the majority view in some parts of the USA was that people of colour should have less rights than their white counterparts. We are moving into an age of more inclusivity and tolerance. That frightens some people and they are using support for Sam Morsy’s religious views as an outlet for their fears or bigotry. Which is pretty ironic, because I’d bet a hefty sum that these are the same people who spend their time on social media moaning about Muslims coming over here with “their Sharia Law” and other customs they deem “not British”. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 12:27]
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Indeed around the time homosexual acts between consenting males were made legal in 1967, an opinion poll found that 93% agreed that homosexual men were "in need of medical or psychiatric treatment".
Interestingly, Iain Dale had a discussion on this last night and rightly pointed out that the women's game, with a high proportion of gay players, does not have similar issues to the men's game among its players or supporters.
And if certain players aren't prepared to support a campaign designed, in part, to make football grounds welcoming to gay people, one wonders what their reaction would be if a team mate came out. And this alone, quite apart from any crowd reaction, no doubt contributes to the fact that no Premier League player has, to my knowledge, ever come out whilst playing. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 9:00]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:59 - Dec 5 with 1105 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:54 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue |
The mens game has historically been followed by males full of testosterone and developed a laddish and blokeish culture. Homosexuality in the game is seen as a weakness and a way to bait the opposition fans or players. We still hear the Fashanu chant at games, although thankfully not so much these days. A “good looking” player with long hair or an Alice band still receives wolf whistles and cat calls. We see comments such “I couldn’t care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes but do they have to shove it down our throats 24/7”. We’ve seen a similar comment to that on here. What it really means is “get back in the closet”.
Its no surprise that a Facebook page called “benchwarmers” would attract a demographic that is less inclined to look favourably on a campaign to promote LGBTIQA+ welcomeness and inclusivity in what is still seen as a “man’s game”.
That doesn’t equate to the views of a majority of “benchwarmers” members being the same as the majority of the country as a whole.
And a majority view doesn’t necessarily make it a right view. 300 years ago the majority view would have been in favour of slavery. Less than 100 years ago, the majority view in some parts of the USA was that people of colour should have less rights than their white counterparts. We are moving into an age of more inclusivity and tolerance. That frightens some people and they are using support for Sam Morsy’s religious views as an outlet for their fears or bigotry. Which is pretty ironic, because I’d bet a hefty sum that these are the same people who spend their time on social media moaning about Muslims coming over here with “their Sharia Law” and other customs they deem “not British”. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 12:27]
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[trigger warning - this post is discussing uk political culture because it interests me, please do not assume that the views critiqued are my views in any simple way.]
good and passionate post and i agree with it. all the evidence is that the uk as a whole is now positive / supportive / accepting about homosexuality. polls show a huge majority, 85% or more, saying so. we should celebrate that degree os consensus on such an important issue. but that leaves a small minority whose attitude is stuck in the 1970s. it's certainly safe to assume that that minority is sadly over-represented in some sections of football supporters. i'd be surprised however if you took a portman road home crowd as a whole if you'd be far off the national average.
but there is something else going on in the uk (and definitely the us) which is different, and which, while it definitely overlaps with outdated views on lgbt issues, is also separate from them. your 'do they have to shove it down our throats 24/7' rather gets to it. there is a more widespread cultural / political view in the uk, held by much more than the 15% who seem unaccepting of differences in sexuality, that they are being lectured to about cultural questions more broadly in a condescending manner. people see it as a unrepresentative and privileged elite with a political agenda lecturing them and seeking to control them on cultural issues. they see much of the media as being the vehicle for this along with various public sector initiatives and events and campaigns and gesture. lots of people feel alienated by this and as a result turn their backs on it all - to an extent with this group the messaging has become counter productive not only because people have stopped listening but because they see it as divisive and manipulative. part of the response to things like arm bands isn't a kick back about equality or inclusivity it's a much broader rejection of what they see as being manipulated.
you may say, these people are just bad and wrong. (i'm sure what someone will say that what i have set out is actually my own view - see trigger warning). but you can't understand populism in the uk (which in its broadest sense includes much more than the backward 15% above) without looking at this, and you definitely can't understand trumps victory in the us in which a rejection of the democrat's cultural stance and the belief that people were being manipulated by a controlling elite seems absolutely central. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:03 - Dec 5 with 1090 views | Jimmy86 |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:14 - Dec 4 by chicoazul |
Why are people talking about lifestyles do people know being gay is not a lifestyle choice am I going insane or what |
You are aware there are 2 different scenarios here right?
1. You are born gay, or bi-sexual
2. Through life you can turn gay, or bi-sexual..
I speak from personal experience here, as after 6 years of being with my son's mother, she left me for a woman, whom she had a steady 4 year relationship with... She then split with her and has since had 2 male partners.
I genuinely believe that she "turned" gay or bi-sexual, as she wasn't originally either of those things when I began a relationship with her. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:32 - Dec 5 with 1018 views | tractorboy7777 |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:03 - Dec 5 by Jimmy86 |
You are aware there are 2 different scenarios here right?
1. You are born gay, or bi-sexual
2. Through life you can turn gay, or bi-sexual..
I speak from personal experience here, as after 6 years of being with my son's mother, she left me for a woman, whom she had a steady 4 year relationship with... She then split with her and has since had 2 male partners.
I genuinely believe that she "turned" gay or bi-sexual, as she wasn't originally either of those things when I began a relationship with her. |
On some level you are beginning to understand sexuality. However it is something you are born with.
From your experience, it sounds like your ex is and has always been bi-sexual. She has always been bi-sexual rather than gay/lesbian. Sexuality involves who you’re attracted to which certainly isn’t a choice. When I look back to when I was younger, I would never be attracted to the opposite gender unlike friends and it began to scare me how I was different. | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:34 - Dec 5 with 1004 views | J2BLUE |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:03 - Dec 5 by Jimmy86 |
You are aware there are 2 different scenarios here right?
1. You are born gay, or bi-sexual
2. Through life you can turn gay, or bi-sexual..
I speak from personal experience here, as after 6 years of being with my son's mother, she left me for a woman, whom she had a steady 4 year relationship with... She then split with her and has since had 2 male partners.
I genuinely believe that she "turned" gay or bi-sexual, as she wasn't originally either of those things when I began a relationship with her. |
I agree, in my opinion, events in life can change your sexuality.
Still not a lifestyle choice though? |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:01 - Dec 5 with 873 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:19 - Dec 2 by GlasgowBlue |
"our captain Sam Morsy, who has chosen not to wear the rainbow captain’s armband, due to his religious beliefs".
Can we please stop validating discriminatory religious beliefs that belong in the dark ages.Not matter which religion it is. |
What you are asking for is basically compelled speech (speech has a very broad legal meaning). People have to get involved with a campaign regardless of their feelings on the issue.
In the case of Morsy, he has not come out and said anything he has simply declined to take part in the campaign. It is obviously for religious reasons, but the details of that are unclear. he clearly does not have such a hardline stance that he will refuse to play for a team that gets involved in the campaign.
There are so many reasons not to support the campaign and each person has the right to their own freedom of thought. It is deeply troubling that a movement that is supposed to be against persecution of a lifestyle is so intent on persecuting non-believers.
Who gets to determine what we are compelled to support? Where do you draw the line?
Are gay people who don't like Stonewall allowed to not support the campaign?
The only sane way to do it is to be able to opt out. The club can fine Morsy if he speaks out against the campaign.
Personally, I don't like the idea of singling out gay people in any way even if it is supposed to positive. Just let them be normal fans of the clubs they support without pledging to be part of a political movement. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:03 - Dec 5 with 870 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:24 - Dec 2 by GlasgowBlue |
The Rainbow Laces campaign is run by Stonewall. |
Look into Stonewall. There is a lot of controversy surrounding them especially with the causes they support and how they are funded. | | | |
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