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Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this? Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:30 - Dec 4 by PassionNotAnger
Let's just simplify this (again)
Morsy is entirely free to believe what he wants as an individual and player (and as long as he doesn't break any laws obviously) The Captains role however is representing the club as its leadership/figurehead and therefore "SHOULD" be able to support "EVERYONE" If Morsy doesn't feel able to support/represent "EVERYONE" then he isn't the right person.
I've not seen anybody being dismissive of his religion just expressing that if it prohibits him from fulfilling ALL of his captains duties then it would probably better for him to step down from it.
This isn't about religion specifically (many other Muslims have supported the rainbow) it's about leadership and how Morsy is (seemingly) choosing to apply his beliefs.
I've seen people describe his religion as "medieval" in this thread... I'd suggest that is being dismissive of his religion.. certainly disrespectful of it
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:37 - Dec 4 with 1258 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:32 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
Ahh, so you took that literally and then brought up something completely unrelated to this thread and the debate surrounding it..
For clarification paedophilia is absolutely deplorable..
What I disagree with is the hypocrisy regarding this subject.. let's hammer our captain, for a lack of inclusion for the LGBTQ+ community, but in the next breath not acknowledge his religious beliefs, as to why he won't wear said armband it's ridiculous
A religious belief which treats a significant portion of society as second class citizens. A religious belief that, through silence, encourages persecution of those from the community - in some Islamic countries it is illegal to be LGBTQIA+ and leads to arrest, imprisonment or worse. A religious belief which, again, through silence, allows homophobia to be seen as legitimate and 'right'.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:37 - Dec 4 by pointofblue
A religious belief which treats a significant portion of society as second class citizens. A religious belief that, through silence, encourages persecution of those from the community - in some Islamic countries it is illegal to be LGBTQIA+ and leads to arrest, imprisonment or worse. A religious belief which, again, through silence, allows homophobia to be seen as legitimate and 'right'.
Let me simplify it for you... Discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community is wrong.. deplorable, in fact.. but in the next breath you can't then discriminate against said religion and it's beliefs, surely?? Or again, are we picking and choosing??
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:44 - Dec 4 with 1208 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:37 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
I've seen people describe his religion as "medieval" in this thread... I'd suggest that is being dismissive of his religion.. certainly disrespectful of it
Some people may well believe that (personally I'm not a fan of most religions) but that's conflating two different issues.
The crux of this debate (for the majority of contributors) is not that Morsy is a Muslim - it's that if cannot support an inclusivity message he shouldn't be the captain.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:45 - Dec 4 with 1198 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:32 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
Ahh, so you took that literally and then brought up something completely unrelated to this thread and the debate surrounding it..
For clarification paedophilia is absolutely deplorable..
What I disagree with is the hypocrisy regarding this subject.. let's hammer our captain, for a lack of inclusion for the LGBTQ+ community, but in the next breath not acknowledge his religious beliefs, as to why he won't wear said armband it's ridiculous
You seem to be missing my point. You didn't need to clarify paedophilia is absolutely deplorable, I took that as read. I brought it up to make a point.
The point is not everything humans do, say or believe in should be tolerated, particularly if it harms others. If Morsy's religious beliefs are against LGBTIQA+ people then they are wrong. Not accepting that community is potentially, and sometimes actually, harmful.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:47 - Dec 4 with 1183 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:44 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
Let me simplify it for you... Discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community is wrong.. deplorable, in fact.. but in the next breath you can't then discriminate against said religion and it's beliefs, surely?? Or again, are we picking and choosing??
I'm critical of homophobia. If a religious belief is supporting homophobia, then I am going to be critical of it.
Otherwise it's suggesting it's fine to be homophobic because a religious text says so.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:37 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
I've seen people describe his religion as "medieval" in this thread... I'd suggest that is being dismissive of his religion.. certainly disrespectful of it
I don't have any respect for his religion, though I respect his right to practice it freely and would defend that right to the hilt.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:53 - Dec 4 with 1139 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:32 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
Ahh, so you took that literally and then brought up something completely unrelated to this thread and the debate surrounding it..
For clarification paedophilia is absolutely deplorable..
What I disagree with is the hypocrisy regarding this subject.. let's hammer our captain, for a lack of inclusion for the LGBTQ+ community, but in the next breath not acknowledge his religious beliefs, as to why he won't wear said armband it's ridiculous
Just to add I think an issue here is that appears to be some "subjectivity" around how he interprets his religion.
Other Muslims are seemingly able to support the rainbow initiative (sports captains, politicians, the major of London to highlight just few).
Some Muslims won't endorse or partake in any form of gambling - Morsy clearly felt comfortable wear shirts with betting companies names on, and collect a salary from those clubs who receive money from gambling profits.
Again - fine if that's how Morsy the man/player wants to interpret his religion but it clearly appears his religion would allow him to support the Rainbow initiative so its a personal (not religious) choice he's made isn't it??
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:37 - Dec 4 by pointofblue
A religious belief which treats a significant portion of society as second class citizens. A religious belief that, through silence, encourages persecution of those from the community - in some Islamic countries it is illegal to be LGBTQIA+ and leads to arrest, imprisonment or worse. A religious belief which, again, through silence, allows homophobia to be seen as legitimate and 'right'.
As recently as the 90s, a colleague was sent to Colchester military prison, for being gay. After his sentence, he was discharged from the service. None of us knew of his sexuality until he helped to resuscitate someone in a gay club in London. So I think we should be careful about taking the moral high ground over such discrimination.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:47 - Dec 4 by pointofblue
I'm critical of homophobia. If a religious belief is supporting homophobia, then I am going to be critical of it.
Otherwise it's suggesting it's fine to be homophobic because a religious text says so.
So, by your logic homophobia and discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community is wrong, but discrimination against religion isn't? That's where the hypocrisy comes in, for me.. inclusion should apply to both scenarios and it clearly isn't..
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:02 - Dec 4 with 1061 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:25 - Dec 4 by lowhouseblue
we should just follow the european convention on human rights and recognise that freedom of thought, conscience and religion and freedom of expression are protected to a high level. freedom of exptession is a foundational human right. of course, respect for private and family life and the prohibition of discrimination are also protected, but in this particular case there is no practical conflict between the various rights (a court would not see anything morsy has done in not wearing an armband that would conflict with private and family life or amount to discrimination).
I don't think anyone is arguing that Morsy doesn't have the right to do what he has done.
Indeed, he has done it.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:03 - Dec 4 with 1058 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:02 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
So, by your logic homophobia and discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community is wrong, but discrimination against religion isn't? That's where the hypocrisy comes in, for me.. inclusion should apply to both scenarios and it clearly isn't..
Not if that religion is espousing something which harms others.
That's the thing you're missing. Being LGBTIQA+ doesn't harm anyone else...
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:16 - Dec 4 with 970 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:02 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
So, by your logic homophobia and discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community is wrong, but discrimination against religion isn't? That's where the hypocrisy comes in, for me.. inclusion should apply to both scenarios and it clearly isn't..
Oh Jimmy
No one is discriminating against Morsy's religion, the issue is simply that he seemingly picks and chooses which part of the religion he's following.
Go back further in the thread and we discuss the betting endorsement, that pretty much explains it.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:02 - Dec 4 by DJR
I don't think anyone is arguing that Morsy doesn't have the right to do what he has done.
Indeed, he has done it.
i was simply making the point that if you agree with the human rights act we do have tolerate somethings that we may see as intolerance. i was responding to "so we have tolerate intolerance do we?" - and the answer is if it doesn't conflict with anyone else's right then yes we do.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:18 - Dec 4 with 963 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 09:37 - Dec 4 by pointofblue
A religious belief which treats a significant portion of society as second class citizens. A religious belief that, through silence, encourages persecution of those from the community - in some Islamic countries it is illegal to be LGBTQIA+ and leads to arrest, imprisonment or worse. A religious belief which, again, through silence, allows homophobia to be seen as legitimate and 'right'.
Slightly unfair to just highlight islamic countries. I'm in Africa and the majority of christian countries are equally as moronic as their Arbrahamic cousins.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:22 - Dec 4 with 935 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:02 - Dec 4 by Jimmy86
So, by your logic homophobia and discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community is wrong, but discrimination against religion isn't? That's where the hypocrisy comes in, for me.. inclusion should apply to both scenarios and it clearly isn't..
It isn't discrimination against religion. It is discrimination against a specific belief. And furthermore, a belief which is not practised by all who follow Islam (using solely Islam in this case as this relates to Morsy).
It is a belief which supports pain and suffering which, through it's silence, at best, encourages homophobia, arresting (elsewhere) and attacking people simply due to what occured in the womb. And yet it is supposed to be accepted because...
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:18 - Dec 4 by lightuser
Slightly unfair to just highlight islamic countries. I'm in Africa and the majority of christian countries are equally as moronic as their Arbrahamic cousins.
I do apologise and you're right. In most of my posts I've tried to keep it as 'religious' rather than 'Islamic' for that reason. The extremes of all religions have similar approaches to this.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:18 - Dec 4 by lowhouseblue
i was simply making the point that if you agree with the human rights act we do have tolerate somethings that we may see as intolerance. i was responding to "so we have tolerate intolerance do we?" - and the answer is if it doesn't conflict with anyone else's right then yes we do.
An intolerance to LGBTQIA+ doesn't conflict with anybody else's right?
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:18 - Dec 4 by lightuser
Slightly unfair to just highlight islamic countries. I'm in Africa and the majority of christian countries are equally as moronic as their Arbrahamic cousins.
Although being gay carries the death penalty in 6 Islamic countries and only one non Islamic country, Uganda which has no state religion.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:26 - Dec 4 by pointofblue
An intolerance to LGBTQIA+ doesn't conflict with anybody else's right?
intolerant beliefs don't. intolerant actions might very well. you would need to show that someone had damaged someone's else's rights (to private and family life or not to be discriminated against) in some practical way. if because of your beliefs you declined to take part in some publicity campaign i can't see that you have meaningfully inflicted harm on anyone - people may well be offended by your decision but there is no right not to be offended. if because of your beliefs you didn't employ someone the conflict with that person's rights is very obvious and straightforward.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 10:44 - Dec 4 with 838 views
Been confirmed that Man U were due to wear jackets for walk out in support on Sunday but one player refused to so they didn’t.
Feels like this is coming to a bit of a head, the PL is having a big problem and needs to work out how to handle this next season when there are more Muslim and Evangelical Christians playing - but feels like the country has gone backwards in minority rights over last few years, and that the gay marriage vote was a high point in some ways…..new Govt should help turn the tanker around in some ways but can’t see it’s going to be quickly.
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