| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason 14:06 - Dec 2 with 77826 views | chicoazul |
Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this?
Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:24 - Dec 3 with 1617 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:47 - Dec 3 by NederlandseBlue |
There are some great posts hidden in this thread, providing a bit of relief after seeing the news comments which are overwhelmingly horrendous.
A special thank you to those who acknowledged they’ve changed their views, such as The Flashing Smile and J2, or apologised for not realising the impact that this choice by our club captain has had on some supporters.
Thank you too to those who have shared their own personal experiences, like pointofblue, SuperBlue1998 and urbanpenguin. Your stories are really powerful, and I hope help others.
I know a gay Muslim guy. He was raised in a deeply religious country and spent most of his teenage years desperately trying to be the strictest Muslim possible while praying to no longer be gay. He regularly heard of gay people ostracised by their families and left homeless, being violently attacked, even killed, or killing themselves. The perpetrators of this abuse were celebrated around him. Eventually it became too much, and he fled to the UK. (Let's not pretend such horrible things don’t happen here too – it’s why we still need campaigns like Rainbow Laces – but it was better for him)
He then discovered a support group that helps people reconcile being gay with being Muslim. He is still not 'out' to his family. He found love too, to an Ipswich Town supporter. They have regularly gone to Portman Road over the years and the Rainbow Tractors flag in the corner helps them feel welcome. They still never dare to hold hands but the hugs at every Ipswich goal are extra special because they can express such joy and connection together in public. You wouldn't know they were a couple unless you see the sparkle in their eyes when they look at each other.
It's entirely possible to be both gay and Muslim. It's also entirely possible to be accepting (I hate that word) of others without compromising how you live your own life.
Wearing a rainbow armband is not an encouragement to be gay. No one is going to suddenly decide to be gay once they see it! It is a signal that people who have historically been (and still are) the target of violence, do not need to hide and are welcome.
We do not know our club captain's motivations yet but that the club ‘respects’ his decision not to visibly support creating such a welcoming environment is not great. There are other words to use.
That gay Muslim Ipswich Town fan enjoyed cheering a fellow Muslim leading out his football team until now. What has happened, and especially the vocal reaction of many uncaring thoughtless people since, has brought back far too many bad memories for him. He is not excited about tonight anymore.
I thought we were much better than this. |
good and interesting post. but there are still two issues in this discussion. one is the need for the club and all of us to be non-discriminatory, non-bigoted, respectful, inclusive and welcoming. i don't think i've seen anyone on the thread seriously dispute that. equally your post shows why inclusion is so important. the degree of consensus about the need to be inclusive and respectful on here seems very positive to me. the second issue is whether the gesture of wearing an armband or bootlace really affects things in the real world to the extent that someone should be compelled to do so, or should be condemned and attacked if they choose not to. even after 20 pages i don't believe that someone should be compelled to go along with something if they have reservations and the scheme shouldn't put individuals in that invidious position. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:27 - Dec 3 with 1597 views | urbanpenguin |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:24 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
good and interesting post. but there are still two issues in this discussion. one is the need for the club and all of us to be non-discriminatory, non-bigoted, respectful, inclusive and welcoming. i don't think i've seen anyone on the thread seriously dispute that. equally your post shows why inclusion is so important. the degree of consensus about the need to be inclusive and respectful on here seems very positive to me. the second issue is whether the gesture of wearing an armband or bootlace really affects things in the real world to the extent that someone should be compelled to do so, or should be condemned and attacked if they choose not to. even after 20 pages i don't believe that someone should be compelled to go along with something if they have reservations and the scheme shouldn't put individuals in that invidious position. |
if someone has "reservations" about equality.
I just don't get it, sorry.
Putting it on may help people, it may just be a gesture, it does no harm at all.
Not putting it on arguably - as I and other have argued - *does* do harm through it's rejection of the message of equality.
Imagine if this was an event against misogyny or against racism, and a player - a captain even - decided that they had "reservations" against the message. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:30 - Dec 3 with 1575 views | Vegtablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:58 - Dec 3 by waveneyblue |
I strongly suggest that most of the contributors on this thread don't listen to Simon Jordans comments on the subject.
But you will all dismiss him, I mean, what does he know about the football industry that you don't |
What did Simon Jordan say? Typing 'Simon Jordan Rainbow Laces' into Google returns stories about him fuming over Nike's England flag and rebuking Henderson's move to Saudi Arabia. He has a wealth of experience in the game but he's not an authority on the subject; I guess he'll have used some of his radio programme to put in a staunch defence of his captain, if he was on air today. He'll have more real-world experience than many on both the campaign and attitudes among players, but he's also just one voice and brings his own biases. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:40 - Dec 3 with 1502 views | ArmaghBlue |
Well done him. No one should be forced to do things against their beliefs. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:41 - Dec 3 with 1492 views | Cafe_Newman |
I wonder whether Super Sam would have ruffled so many feathers if he'd said his actions were based on his faith rather than his religion. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 17:48]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:45 - Dec 3 with 1442 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:27 - Dec 3 by urbanpenguin |
if someone has "reservations" about equality.
I just don't get it, sorry.
Putting it on may help people, it may just be a gesture, it does no harm at all.
Not putting it on arguably - as I and other have argued - *does* do harm through it's rejection of the message of equality.
Imagine if this was an event against misogyny or against racism, and a player - a captain even - decided that they had "reservations" against the message. |
i didn't say anyone 'has "reservations" about equality.' i clearly meant that someone has reservations about 'the gesture of wearing an armband or bootlace'. the trouble is that you, and others in the thread, are conflating the two and trying to claim that the former is necessarily implied by the latter. i've said previously in the thread why someone might have reservations about making the gesture and why different people interpret the gesture in different ways. i've seen nothing at all to suggest that morsy has 'reservations about equality'. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:47 - Dec 3 with 1426 views | urbanpenguin |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:45 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
i didn't say anyone 'has "reservations" about equality.' i clearly meant that someone has reservations about 'the gesture of wearing an armband or bootlace'. the trouble is that you, and others in the thread, are conflating the two and trying to claim that the former is necessarily implied by the latter. i've said previously in the thread why someone might have reservations about making the gesture and why different people interpret the gesture in different ways. i've seen nothing at all to suggest that morsy has 'reservations about equality'. |
I have, by his very act of refusal to wear a symbol of equality. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:50 - Dec 3 with 1396 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:47 - Dec 3 by urbanpenguin |
I have, by his very act of refusal to wear a symbol of equality. |
again you're conflating two separate things and doing it a way which seems a bit disingenuous. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:51 - Dec 3 with 1390 views | waveneyblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:30 - Dec 3 by Vegtablue |
What did Simon Jordan say? Typing 'Simon Jordan Rainbow Laces' into Google returns stories about him fuming over Nike's England flag and rebuking Henderson's move to Saudi Arabia. He has a wealth of experience in the game but he's not an authority on the subject; I guess he'll have used some of his radio programme to put in a staunch defence of his captain, if he was on air today. He'll have more real-world experience than many on both the campaign and attitudes among players, but he's also just one voice and brings his own biases. |
It was on Talk Sport today - It should be easy to find on any of the Socials - |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:51 - Dec 3 with 1391 views | Mullet |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:47 - Dec 3 by urbanpenguin |
I have, by his very act of refusal to wear a symbol of equality. |
Wonder if this statement was vetted by the club too |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:54 - Dec 3 with 1354 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:51 - Dec 3 by Mullet |
Wonder if this statement was vetted by the club too |
it's a very good and balanced statement. time to move on. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:57 - Dec 3 with 1321 views | urbanpenguin |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:54 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
it's a very good and balanced statement. time to move on. |
Thanks, but I don't need to be told when to move on to something that is personal to me and not you. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:57 - Dec 3 with 1318 views | Mullet |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:54 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
it's a very good and balanced statement. time to move on. |
Not sure responding helps with the time to move on bit. Given I didn’t comment on the quality of it seems a tad defensive | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:59 - Dec 3 with 1305 views | orfordbuoy |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:40 - Dec 3 by ArmaghBlue |
Well done him. No one should be forced to do things against their beliefs. |
so, one man that represents ITFC on the field (not himself) makes a conscious effort - unlike the other 19 captains - to not represent one sector of our society based on an archaic religion where gay people are not seen as equals, and this is acceptable or even ok? |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:00 - Dec 3 with 1295 views | Cafe_Newman |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:21 - Dec 2 by GlasgowBlue |
It's not a very tricky situation. GAY = Good As You. No iffs, not buts. |
You have focussed on just the "G" component of the LGBTQIA+ movement. Has Sam detailed his reasons for not wanting to wear the armband? | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:02 - Dec 3 with 1284 views | Swansea_Blue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:51 - Dec 3 by Mullet |
Wonder if this statement was vetted by the club too |
Decent statement that and pretty much all that can be done. Respect he has a right to chose (nobody has to like it) and reiterate the support of the club in general. Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if the club saw that before. Maybe not, but it’s bang on the money as a ‘corporate’ statement. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:06 - Dec 3 with 1247 views | Cafe_Newman |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:51 - Dec 3 by Mullet |
Wonder if this statement was vetted by the club too |
Well, it wasn't vetted by a grammarian. That split infinite is as bold as the Starship Enterprise. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:12 - Dec 3 with 1209 views | NewcyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:51 - Dec 3 by Mullet |
Wonder if this statement was vetted by the club too |
This just shows what wonderful people are behind Rainbow Tractors. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:13 - Dec 3 with 1197 views | Cafe_Newman |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:59 - Dec 3 by orfordbuoy |
so, one man that represents ITFC on the field (not himself) makes a conscious effort - unlike the other 19 captains - to not represent one sector of our society based on an archaic religion where gay people are not seen as equals, and this is acceptable or even ok? |
"based on an archaic religion"
Serious question: What religion are you talking about? | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:14 - Dec 3 with 1193 views | NewcyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:54 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
it's a very good and balanced statement. time to move on. |
You don’t get to tell people when to move on. | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:14 - Dec 3 with 1183 views | urbanpenguin |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:06 - Dec 3 by Cafe_Newman |
Well, it wasn't vetted by a grammarian. That split infinite is as bold as the Starship Enterprise. |
Or by a graphic designer.
I don't know who Rainbow Tractors is. Judging from how they post on Twitter it's a single person expressing their own personal views, but they don't speak for me and this seems a miserable response. My letter to the club will be less polite - but will be in a legible font. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:16 - Dec 3 with 1165 views | orfordbuoy |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:13 - Dec 3 by Cafe_Newman |
"based on an archaic religion"
Serious question: What religion are you talking about? |
says the Putin apologist.
Don't you have GlaVset propaganda to spread? | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:16 - Dec 3 with 1161 views | NewcyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:14 - Dec 3 by urbanpenguin |
Or by a graphic designer.
I don't know who Rainbow Tractors is. Judging from how they post on Twitter it's a single person expressing their own personal views, but they don't speak for me and this seems a miserable response. My letter to the club will be less polite - but will be in a legible font. |
I think it’s a noble gesture by Rainbow Tractors, not one that Mr Morsy deserves. Shame he couldn’t reciprocate. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 18:17]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:18 - Dec 3 with 1147 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:14 - Dec 3 by NewcyBlue |
You don’t get to tell people when to move on. |
you don't get to tell anyone anything online. you get to express an opinion. i expressed an opinion. people will do whatever they want to do. it's not complicated is it? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:20 - Dec 3 with 1120 views | Cafe_Newman |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:16 - Dec 3 by orfordbuoy |
says the Putin apologist.
Don't you have GlaVset propaganda to spread? |
I'm not a Putin apologist.
I have no idea what GlaVset is.
You haven't answered my question. Why is that? | | | |
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