| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason 14:06 - Dec 2 with 77783 views | chicoazul |
Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this?
Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:04 - Dec 3 with 1665 views | giant_stow |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:00 - Dec 3 by Ryorry |
Yes, doesn't *necessarily* take religion. |
absolutely. Money and power can be slightly big tempters too. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:09 - Dec 3 with 1622 views | Blueschev |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:00 - Dec 3 by dirtyboy |
You're suggesting he's advocating bigotry which is a big leap.
In my eyes it's being analysed too much.
Is Morsy a good human being? Probably.
I'm prepared to move on when there's f*****g atrocities being carried out across the world that are far more deserving of time and discussion than whether one person represents us all. |
He's refused to wear the the armband due to his belief that being gay is immoral and a sin. I'm sorry but that is bigotry no matter what story book it is written in.
I'm not saying he's a bad person but in this instance he's wrong and given his status and profile, it is right he is called out as such. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:11 - Dec 3 with 1595 views | gringoblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:03 - Dec 3 by noggin |
Oh there is a story here, we're already at 19 pages on TWTD. Like players taking, or not taking the knee and people choosing not to wear a poppy, it creates hysteria among groups of people who want to feel offended on behalf of others. The irony is, our Grandfathers fought for Sam Morsy's right to choose. Of course, the offended are also free to feel offended, in a free country.
Edit,. 20 pages. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 12:03]
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I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but our forefathers did not fight any wars for the right of someone in the UK to be homosexual or engage in same sex acts. Until 1967 there was a maximum penalty of life imprisonment for anal sex.
This is not about offence. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:13 - Dec 3 with 1578 views | Ryorry |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:45 - Dec 3 by itfcjoe |
I'm sure writing that on there would get him in more hot water than not wearing it, or writing what Guehi did on it
I just find it difficult as just very anti-religion but don't like to vocalise it too much as it is offensive to many, but this sort of sh*t is why - people think that when they are ultra religious they are morally superior to you and it's just laughable, they need to activate their brain and decide what is right and wrong.
Should everyone be welcome at football and in the game? That's the only thing that matters here and we can see that they aren't |
"I just find it difficult as just very anti-religion ... they need to activate their brain and decide what is right and wrong."
I'm very anti-religion too, but accept that people raised in an environment where they are indoctrinated with a particular religion from the day of their birth until they are about 18, are not going to be able to quickly remove everything that's been poured into every cell of their being once they reach 18+, esp if their close family & community hold the same beliefs.
It's a form of brainwashing, and you'd not lambast other victims of that for the beliefs they've been filled with by others would you? I think that's why I've disagreed with some of what you've said on this thread. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:14 - Dec 3 with 1558 views | itfcjoe |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:13 - Dec 3 by Ryorry |
"I just find it difficult as just very anti-religion ... they need to activate their brain and decide what is right and wrong."
I'm very anti-religion too, but accept that people raised in an environment where they are indoctrinated with a particular religion from the day of their birth until they are about 18, are not going to be able to quickly remove everything that's been poured into every cell of their being once they reach 18+, esp if their close family & community hold the same beliefs.
It's a form of brainwashing, and you'd not lambast other victims of that for the beliefs they've been filled with by others would you? I think that's why I've disagreed with some of what you've said on this thread. |
There's generally a hypocritical nature to the buffet of what people choose to agree with and disagree with in the name of religion that suits themselves. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:16 - Dec 3 with 1537 views | Ryorry |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:14 - Dec 3 by itfcjoe |
There's generally a hypocritical nature to the buffet of what people choose to agree with and disagree with in the name of religion that suits themselves. |
Depends on the individual, like many other things., | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:17 - Dec 3 with 1525 views | noggin |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:11 - Dec 3 by gringoblue |
I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but our forefathers did not fight any wars for the right of someone in the UK to be homosexual or engage in same sex acts. Until 1967 there was a maximum penalty of life imprisonment for anal sex.
This is not about offence. |
I think you've misunderstood me. They fought for freedom and as such, SM is free to choose to not wear the armband. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:17 - Dec 3 with 1526 views | baxterbasics |
Half of online commentary: "Based Morsy, nice one for not bowing to that woke nonsense"
The other half: "Disappointing homophobia fail poorly justified by a medieval religion"
Not us TWTD'ers of course, we've carefully balanced the nuances of all this across 20+ pages now. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:19 - Dec 3 with 1495 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:17 - Dec 3 by baxterbasics |
Half of online commentary: "Based Morsy, nice one for not bowing to that woke nonsense"
The other half: "Disappointing homophobia fail poorly justified by a medieval religion"
Not us TWTD'ers of course, we've carefully balanced the nuances of all this across 20+ pages now. |
to be fair it's been 20 pages of mainly civilised and reasoned discussion including heart felt personal experience. it's much better here than most places. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:21 - Dec 3 with 1449 views | Swailsey |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:19 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
to be fair it's been 20 pages of mainly civilised and reasoned discussion including heart felt personal experience. it's much better here than most places. |
Yep. Lazy summary designed to diminish reasonable debate by BB. |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:22 - Dec 3 with 1441 views | Ryorry |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:17 - Dec 3 by baxterbasics |
Half of online commentary: "Based Morsy, nice one for not bowing to that woke nonsense"
The other half: "Disappointing homophobia fail poorly justified by a medieval religion"
Not us TWTD'ers of course, we've carefully balanced the nuances of all this across 20+ pages now. |
The 10,000 foot chasm between forumites & news commentors is astonishing - some of the 'Sam's right' comments on there have 60+ uppies, & some of the "he's wrong" ones on there over 60 downies! *Edit - looks like quite a lot of them have now been deleted. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 12:27]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:22 - Dec 3 with 1440 views | sjg |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:19 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
to be fair it's been 20 pages of mainly civilised and reasoned discussion including heart felt personal experience. it's much better here than most places. |
Yes, normally normally long threads like this do my head in but it's been one of the best threads I've ever seen on here |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:23 - Dec 3 with 1434 views | baxterbasics |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:55 - Dec 3 by eireblue |
Your post reminded me of the quote by Steven Weinberg, “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” |
The quote is quite provably wrong. The "Religion is the cause of all conflict" line is a lazy and inaccurate one.
It only takes a little research into the worst conflicts and atrocities committed throughout history, to see that most were not particularly religious in nature. Often carried out by Godless regimes in fact. | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:25 - Dec 3 with 1398 views | baxterbasics |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:19 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
to be fair it's been 20 pages of mainly civilised and reasoned discussion including heart felt personal experience. it's much better here than most places. |
I actually agree and my final comment wasn't meant to be as sarky as it perhaps came across. | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:39 - Dec 3 with 1307 views | Churchman |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:09 - Dec 3 by Blueschev |
He's refused to wear the the armband due to his belief that being gay is immoral and a sin. I'm sorry but that is bigotry no matter what story book it is written in.
I'm not saying he's a bad person but in this instance he's wrong and given his status and profile, it is right he is called out as such. |
Is that something he has said or your interpretation? I’m genuinely interested to read his exact words. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:44 - Dec 3 with 1252 views | GlasgowBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:39 - Dec 3 by Churchman |
Is that something he has said or your interpretation? I’m genuinely interested to read his exact words. |
Quote from the club
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason by GlasgowBlue 2 Dec 2024 14:19"our captain Sam Morsy, who has chosen not to wear the rainbow captain’s armband, due to his religious beliefs".
Can we please stop validating discriminatory religious beliefs that belong in the dark ages.Not matter which religion it is.
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:55 - Dec 3 with 1187 views | N2_Blue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:09 - Dec 3 by Blueschev |
He's refused to wear the the armband due to his belief that being gay is immoral and a sin. I'm sorry but that is bigotry no matter what story book it is written in.
I'm not saying he's a bad person but in this instance he's wrong and given his status and profile, it is right he is called out as such. |
It may be a reasonable assumption to make but it is still an assumption. We don't know that Sam's 'current' belief is that being gay is immoral and a sin. He may be protecting himself by choosing not to wear the armband rather than because he has homophobic views.
Not a defense, and historic posts that have been hinted at don't help , but say he has re-educated himself, is now far more accepting and the club and squad know that but due to pressures in his own personal circles make things awkward for him should he make the decision to publically show support.
Obvioulsy that would be very much self-interest but it's still a possibility. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 13:00]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:03 - Dec 3 with 1121 views | Benters |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:53 - Dec 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why the F am I getting downarrows for asking a simple question?! I'm not insinuating anything, I genuinely don't know.
FFS, this place has lost its mind. |
LOL 😂 |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:04 - Dec 3 with 1112 views | Blueschev |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:55 - Dec 3 by N2_Blue |
It may be a reasonable assumption to make but it is still an assumption. We don't know that Sam's 'current' belief is that being gay is immoral and a sin. He may be protecting himself by choosing not to wear the armband rather than because he has homophobic views.
Not a defense, and historic posts that have been hinted at don't help , but say he has re-educated himself, is now far more accepting and the club and squad know that but due to pressures in his own personal circles make things awkward for him should he make the decision to publically show support.
Obvioulsy that would be very much self-interest but it's still a possibility. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 13:00]
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The club put out a statement saying it was down to his religious beliefs, so I'm not assuming anything.
He has chosen not to partake, which is his right, I don't believe these things should be mandatory. But at the same time he has to own that decision, and the backlash that comes with it. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:07 - Dec 3 with 1090 views | sjg |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:03 - Dec 3 by Benters |
LOL 😂 |
Mr Downvote himself | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:13 - Dec 3 with 1036 views | Blueschev |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:39 - Dec 3 by Churchman |
Is that something he has said or your interpretation? I’m genuinely interested to read his exact words. |
How else could I or anybody else interoperate the club statement? | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:13 - Dec 3 with 1041 views | Kievthegreat |
Saw a post on BlueSky which summarised my disappointment in the whole situation.
Someone pointed out that they'd always push back and challenge on discrimination and abuse aimed towards Sam, but that they were disappointed that (they felt) Sam wouldn't do the same for them. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:13 - Dec 3 with 1031 views | Vegtablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 07:25 - Dec 3 by itfcjoe |
By not publicly supporting it, he is publicly rejecting it - there’s no middle ground on this one.
There’s been a lot of word salads on this thread by people trying to talk around why the non-acceptance of a basic small gesture of inclusion isn’t a big deal. It’s being spelled out why it is, and why also this viewpoint from fans is hurtful |
So many word salads, so many excellent posts. Urbanpenguin's contribution is so important in clarifying again the message that Morsy has publicly rejected to endorse. It doesn't need to be about celebration; it's about inclusion. The message is carefully crafted, possibly in part to avoid the problem that has befallen Town. As you've said multiple times, Muslim players have previously worn this armband. Morsy wouldn't have been breaking new ground. We shouldn't pretend it is equivalent to staying at home during a local Pride event.
The league and all clubs have consistently come together for this initiative; all claim to support it; all received the new uniform. How some have described his 'abstention', it is as though team captains needed to dust off their sewing kits in order to produce their armbands, that it required active effort, as opposed to simply wearing what they would have been provided with. Some have also drawn sharp distinctions between this and sponsorship logos. The Premier League has partnered with Stonewall on the Rainbow Laces campaign: "our clubs will come together", this is the uniform we provide and expect you to wear, this is the uniform that represents the league's values, club's values, and the club's responsibilities, as a shareholder of the league.. the distinction is not nearly so great.
People have spoken about individual rights, about personal choice. This I don't disagree with. It disappoints me that Morsy has rejected the message and I criticise him for it, but it's his right. I believe he is sufficiently strong in character to have weathered any uncomfortable conversations as a consequence of wearing it, in line with Muslim captains who have come before, but I don't know if his personal circumstances made it especially difficult, or if simply his beliefs made it especially difficult, or even an easy decision for him. What disappoints me more is that the club has allowed Morsy to publicly reject the armband, rather than ensuring a willing alternative was found to deliver the club's message and the league's message on this important issue.
Waveney has argued at length that the club had little choice, that they would have been staring down the barrel of a massive lawsuit had they chosen a different captain. I find that preposterous, to be honest, even without your example of El-Mizouni, in search for precedents. I would be astonished if Waveney can provide precedents to support his claim. Morsy's right to refuse to promote his workplace's campaign would be respected. No financial sanctions would be placed on him. A suitable employee would be sourced to deliver the organisation's message and represent the club appropriately. The fallout in some Muslim corners may have been strong, if certain groups had been looking forward to Morsy's poster-boy rejection of this anti-discrimination message, but that should have been of no importance to us. You defend your values. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:16 - Dec 3 with 1216 views | N2_Blue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:04 - Dec 3 by Blueschev |
The club put out a statement saying it was down to his religious beliefs, so I'm not assuming anything.
He has chosen not to partake, which is his right, I don't believe these things should be mandatory. But at the same time he has to own that decision, and the backlash that comes with it. |
Fair enough.
For me all that's saying is he is Muslim, and from a Muslim country and his whole life is immersed in Muslim principles, and as a result has chosen not to wear the armband. It doesn't say he belives being gay is immoral and a sin.
It's not a defense of Sam Morsy, as it doesn't look good at all and hence wheere are with the backlash of the support but i still find incredible difficult to accept that the club, playing squad and Kieran Mckenna would all accept a captain who was homophobic.
Anyway i relaise I'm beginning to repeat the same thing now so i'll stop there. | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:16 - Dec 3 with 1216 views | Benters |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:07 - Dec 3 by sjg |
Mr Downvote himself |
Balls. | |
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