| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason 14:06 - Dec 2 with 81892 views | chicoazul |
Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this?
Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked. |  |
| |  |
| I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 13:17 - Dec 3 with 2519 views | Crawfordsboot |
| I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 14:33 - Dec 2 by Bloots |
....which is a polite way of say "fooking peed off" that the club have said that they "respect his decision".
They really don't need to respect it.
I don't, and neither should anybody else.
Really bad from the club. |
Upticked in error!
Rubbish - What the club have signalled is that they respect his right not to join in the signalling. I’m a committed atheist but I respect his right to follow his beliefs.
He is just getting on with doing his job. Move on. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:26 - Dec 3 with 2449 views | Blueschev |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:16 - Dec 3 by N2_Blue |
Fair enough.
For me all that's saying is he is Muslim, and from a Muslim country and his whole life is immersed in Muslim principles, and as a result has chosen not to wear the armband. It doesn't say he belives being gay is immoral and a sin.
It's not a defense of Sam Morsy, as it doesn't look good at all and hence wheere are with the backlash of the support but i still find incredible difficult to accept that the club, playing squad and Kieran Mckenna would all accept a captain who was homophobic.
Anyway i relaise I'm beginning to repeat the same thing now so i'll stop there. |
"For me all that's saying is he is Muslim, and from a Muslim country and his whole life is immersed in Muslim principles, and as a result has chosen not to wear the armband. It doesn't say he belives being gay is immoral and a sin." - That's exactly what it does say. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:26 - Dec 3 with 2437 views | Churchman |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:44 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue |
Quote from the club
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason by GlasgowBlue 2 Dec 2024 14:19"our captain Sam Morsy, who has chosen not to wear the rainbow captain’s armband, due to his religious beliefs".
Can we please stop validating discriminatory religious beliefs that belong in the dark ages.Not matter which religion it is.
|
‘due to his belief that being gay is immoral and a sin.’ Is an interpretation of his beliefs. I’ve not read the Koran or have any idea what his version of adherence and faith are, beyond knowing that Islam takes many forms.
You and others may have a better idea than me (not hard) - I’d be very interested to understand if that’s the case.
In the meantime, while I disagree with his actions, from my standpoint, I am not going to sit in judgement on him given my ignorance and his right to follow whatever his faith demands of him - within the law, obviously.
Nor am I going to criticise the club on this given whatever they did would be condemned. As it goes, I believe they’ve taken the least worst path.
Finally, whatever the club does in relation to this whether it be colour schemes, laces etc I’m sure the vast majority of people will support it and that’s the most important thing.
Football in my lifetime has moved a long way away from the outright bigotry that existed when I was young in all its forms. More to do but it’s going the right way. I doubt a discussion like this would even have been held 40 years ago. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:28 - Dec 3 with 2434 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:13 - Dec 3 by Vegtablue |
So many word salads, so many excellent posts. Urbanpenguin's contribution is so important in clarifying again the message that Morsy has publicly rejected to endorse. It doesn't need to be about celebration; it's about inclusion. The message is carefully crafted, possibly in part to avoid the problem that has befallen Town. As you've said multiple times, Muslim players have previously worn this armband. Morsy wouldn't have been breaking new ground. We shouldn't pretend it is equivalent to staying at home during a local Pride event.
The league and all clubs have consistently come together for this initiative; all claim to support it; all received the new uniform. How some have described his 'abstention', it is as though team captains needed to dust off their sewing kits in order to produce their armbands, that it required active effort, as opposed to simply wearing what they would have been provided with. Some have also drawn sharp distinctions between this and sponsorship logos. The Premier League has partnered with Stonewall on the Rainbow Laces campaign: "our clubs will come together", this is the uniform we provide and expect you to wear, this is the uniform that represents the league's values, club's values, and the club's responsibilities, as a shareholder of the league.. the distinction is not nearly so great.
People have spoken about individual rights, about personal choice. This I don't disagree with. It disappoints me that Morsy has rejected the message and I criticise him for it, but it's his right. I believe he is sufficiently strong in character to have weathered any uncomfortable conversations as a consequence of wearing it, in line with Muslim captains who have come before, but I don't know if his personal circumstances made it especially difficult, or if simply his beliefs made it especially difficult, or even an easy decision for him. What disappoints me more is that the club has allowed Morsy to publicly reject the armband, rather than ensuring a willing alternative was found to deliver the club's message and the league's message on this important issue.
Waveney has argued at length that the club had little choice, that they would have been staring down the barrel of a massive lawsuit had they chosen a different captain. I find that preposterous, to be honest, even without your example of El-Mizouni, in search for precedents. I would be astonished if Waveney can provide precedents to support his claim. Morsy's right to refuse to promote his workplace's campaign would be respected. No financial sanctions would be placed on him. A suitable employee would be sourced to deliver the organisation's message and represent the club appropriately. The fallout in some Muslim corners may have been strong, if certain groups had been looking forward to Morsy's poster-boy rejection of this anti-discrimination message, but that should have been of no importance to us. You defend your values. |
"Morsy's right to refuse to promote his workplace's campaign would be respected. No financial sanctions would be placed on him. A suitable employee would be sourced to deliver the organisation's message and represent the club appropriately."
so why not design this campaign to allow for precisely that? rather than saying the gesture must be made by one individual (the captain) why not design it so it could be anyone in the team who wears something, or carries a flag onto the pitch, or writes in the programme or whatever. making it so the captain has to go along with it or he is personally made to out as a bad guy is really unnecessary. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:30 - Dec 3 with 2413 views | FrimleyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:16 - Dec 3 by N2_Blue |
Fair enough.
For me all that's saying is he is Muslim, and from a Muslim country and his whole life is immersed in Muslim principles, and as a result has chosen not to wear the armband. It doesn't say he belives being gay is immoral and a sin.
It's not a defense of Sam Morsy, as it doesn't look good at all and hence wheere are with the backlash of the support but i still find incredible difficult to accept that the club, playing squad and Kieran Mckenna would all accept a captain who was homophobic.
Anyway i relaise I'm beginning to repeat the same thing now so i'll stop there. |
Well he was born in Wolverhampton, a country that has progressed incredibly well despite slowly in acceptance of all of it's people. He may have indeed over that time immersed himself in Muslim principles, but he would also be fully aware and you'd have hoped acceptable to the principles of the country he was born in. |  |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:31 - Dec 3 with 2407 views | Crawfordsboot |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:09 - Dec 3 by Blueschev |
He's refused to wear the the armband due to his belief that being gay is immoral and a sin. I'm sorry but that is bigotry no matter what story book it is written in.
I'm not saying he's a bad person but in this instance he's wrong and given his status and profile, it is right he is called out as such. |
You’ve spoken to him have you? You appear to know what he believes.
Perhaps he is ambivalent about the whole thing but doesn’t want to offend members of his church by making a public display in support of pride.
For me this is a non issue and I would much prefer to engage with a 20 pager debating the grossly offensive establishment of the church in our everyday lives. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:33 - Dec 3 with 2390 views | PassionNotAnger |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:28 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
"Morsy's right to refuse to promote his workplace's campaign would be respected. No financial sanctions would be placed on him. A suitable employee would be sourced to deliver the organisation's message and represent the club appropriately."
so why not design this campaign to allow for precisely that? rather than saying the gesture must be made by one individual (the captain) why not design it so it could be anyone in the team who wears something, or carries a flag onto the pitch, or writes in the programme or whatever. making it so the captain has to go along with it or he is personally made to out as a bad guy is really unnecessary. |
So change the entire thing which has been running for a few years because 1 captain can’t find it in themselves to wear a symbolic armband promoting inclusivity and tolerance for 2 games? |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:39 - Dec 3 with 2348 views | dirtyboy |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:33 - Dec 3 by PassionNotAnger |
So change the entire thing which has been running for a few years because 1 captain can’t find it in themselves to wear a symbolic armband promoting inclusivity and tolerance for 2 games? |
I'm 'tolerant' of Morsy's stance. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:39 - Dec 3 with 2341 views | eireblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:23 - Dec 3 by baxterbasics |
The quote is quite provably wrong. The "Religion is the cause of all conflict" line is a lazy and inaccurate one.
It only takes a little research into the worst conflicts and atrocities committed throughout history, to see that most were not particularly religious in nature. Often carried out by Godless regimes in fact. |
The quote does not say “ "Religion is the cause of all conflict”
The quote is somewhat appropriate, since it is about humans, not regimes.
We have had people on this thread talking about the negative impact they feel.
And we have someone that is described as a good person. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 13:46]
|  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:42 - Dec 3 with 2308 views | waveneyblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:33 - Dec 3 by PassionNotAnger |
So change the entire thing which has been running for a few years because 1 captain can’t find it in themselves to wear a symbolic armband promoting inclusivity and tolerance for 2 games? |
Have you considered running for PM ?
As you have an answer for everything - as long as the answer is to stick to your original comment and never alter from it.
Where have you been all this time on here?
You're already one of my favourites!!!
Edit - Apologies, you've been here ages, just that you never comment on football - just get involved in arguments with your views always being correct.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2024 13:50]
|  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:43 - Dec 3 with 2294 views | Pinewoodblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:16 - Dec 3 by Benters |
Balls. |
To misquote Spike Milligan
Caw cried the crow, balls cried Benters. |  |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:58 - Dec 3 with 2219 views | GlasgowBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:16 - Dec 3 by N2_Blue |
Fair enough.
For me all that's saying is he is Muslim, and from a Muslim country and his whole life is immersed in Muslim principles, and as a result has chosen not to wear the armband. It doesn't say he belives being gay is immoral and a sin.
It's not a defense of Sam Morsy, as it doesn't look good at all and hence wheere are with the backlash of the support but i still find incredible difficult to accept that the club, playing squad and Kieran Mckenna would all accept a captain who was homophobic.
Anyway i relaise I'm beginning to repeat the same thing now so i'll stop there. |
Sam was born and raised in Wolverhampton. |  |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:03 - Dec 3 with 2195 views | Vegtablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:28 - Dec 3 by lowhouseblue |
"Morsy's right to refuse to promote his workplace's campaign would be respected. No financial sanctions would be placed on him. A suitable employee would be sourced to deliver the organisation's message and represent the club appropriately."
so why not design this campaign to allow for precisely that? rather than saying the gesture must be made by one individual (the captain) why not design it so it could be anyone in the team who wears something, or carries a flag onto the pitch, or writes in the programme or whatever. making it so the captain has to go along with it or he is personally made to out as a bad guy is really unnecessary. |
I would imagine because the Premier League is emphatic on its message, and so has given it equal treatment to the Kick It Out campaign. There is no room for racism in football, as is there no room for hostility towards LGBTQIA+ involvement in football. If you subscribe to the archaic, discriminatory belief that this community lives their lives in sin, that gives you no right to deny or attempt to deny the equal treatment and acceptance of these communities in our game. If you quietly subscribe to archaic, discriminatory beliefs around certain races being superior to others, the same applies. It would be very odd to treat these campaign messages differently. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:28 - Dec 3 with 2111 views | E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
I suggest people go and see the post from benchwarmers on Facebook. 4,000 comments and I’d say over 90% in support of Sam Morsy. Here the percentage is much less. That is purely because hiding behind a username people are saying different just to create an argument. If you speak to your mates majority will be in favour of Morsy and the 4,000 comments prove that. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:45 - Dec 3 with 2021 views | Reus30 |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:28 - Dec 3 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
I suggest people go and see the post from benchwarmers on Facebook. 4,000 comments and I’d say over 90% in support of Sam Morsy. Here the percentage is much less. That is purely because hiding behind a username people are saying different just to create an argument. If you speak to your mates majority will be in favour of Morsy and the 4,000 comments prove that. |
What an idiotic post.
It's not about how many wet blankets on facebook support Sam nor does it mean that 90% of the people backing him, therefore that opinion trumps all. It's not a competition.
Debates are formed because the sides tend to be black, white, grey (and in-between) and then stupid. You just waddle in here, slap you post down like some insensitive ape and say "oN FaCeBouikk, mY naAns bruva "
People on Reddit are extremely against him for his decision.
Also it's a good thing that people use avatars/usernames on here with the key beneficiary being you. The amount of pish you type on here makes me want to bleach my eyes. I deliberately have taken you off ignore just to call you out for being stupid, that's how much you annoy me. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:47 - Dec 3 with 2006 views | Whos_blue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:28 - Dec 3 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
I suggest people go and see the post from benchwarmers on Facebook. 4,000 comments and I’d say over 90% in support of Sam Morsy. Here the percentage is much less. That is purely because hiding behind a username people are saying different just to create an argument. If you speak to your mates majority will be in favour of Morsy and the 4,000 comments prove that. |
Or maybe benchwarmers has it's own particular demographic, whereas here is a little more of a broadchurch of views? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:56 - Dec 3 with 1971 views | gringoblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:28 - Dec 3 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
I suggest people go and see the post from benchwarmers on Facebook. 4,000 comments and I’d say over 90% in support of Sam Morsy. Here the percentage is much less. That is purely because hiding behind a username people are saying different just to create an argument. If you speak to your mates majority will be in favour of Morsy and the 4,000 comments prove that. |
That thread just shows how important the Rainbow Laces campaign is and how much further men's football and society needs to travel.
It is my view that Morsy shouldn't be ITFC captain, much as I love him as a footballer. I appreciate other people will have a different view on this, which is fine. I also know that, realistically, the club won't make a change. I hope the club will think differently when Morsy leaves and a new captain is chosen.
Happy to put my name to that - Matthew Newnham. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:16 - Dec 3 with 1895 views | Vegtablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:45 - Dec 3 by Reus30 |
What an idiotic post.
It's not about how many wet blankets on facebook support Sam nor does it mean that 90% of the people backing him, therefore that opinion trumps all. It's not a competition.
Debates are formed because the sides tend to be black, white, grey (and in-between) and then stupid. You just waddle in here, slap you post down like some insensitive ape and say "oN FaCeBouikk, mY naAns bruva "
People on Reddit are extremely against him for his decision.
Also it's a good thing that people use avatars/usernames on here with the key beneficiary being you. The amount of pish you type on here makes me want to bleach my eyes. I deliberately have taken you off ignore just to call you out for being stupid, that's how much you annoy me. |
Lol, tbf his post gave me a laugh. Up to 3600 people on a Facebook page called benchwarmers have spoken. That's just a few thousand fewer than voted for the Monster Raving Loony party at the general election, so maybe it's time we respected the will of the British people and changed governments too (not intending to set up jokes about them already being in the building). Also the irony of posting that as EIEIEIO, known by two or three people on here as the man behind his username (I guess), in opposition to the views of Joe, Texters, Bloots, GB and others, known by plenty in real life as the men behind theirs! It was funny in its ridiculousness. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 15:18]
| | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:40 - Dec 3 with 1797 views | J2BLUE |
After the reaction to Morsy and Guehi it will be interesting to see if Guehi just decides not to bother wearing it tonight. |  |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:47 - Dec 3 with 1767 views | NederlandseBlue |
There are some great posts hidden in this thread, providing a bit of relief after seeing the news comments which are overwhelmingly horrendous.
A special thank you to those who acknowledged they’ve changed their views, such as The Flashing Smile and J2, or apologised for not realising the impact that this choice by our club captain has had on some supporters.
Thank you too to those who have shared their own personal experiences, like pointofblue, SuperBlue1998 and urbanpenguin. Your stories are really powerful, and I hope help others.
I know a gay Muslim guy. He was raised in a deeply religious country and spent most of his teenage years desperately trying to be the strictest Muslim possible while praying to no longer be gay. He regularly heard of gay people ostracised by their families and left homeless, being violently attacked, even killed, or killing themselves. The perpetrators of this abuse were celebrated around him. Eventually it became too much, and he fled to the UK. (Let's not pretend such horrible things don’t happen here too – it’s why we still need campaigns like Rainbow Laces – but it was better for him)
He then discovered a support group that helps people reconcile being gay with being Muslim. He is still not 'out' to his family. He found love too, to an Ipswich Town supporter. They have regularly gone to Portman Road over the years and the Rainbow Tractors flag in the corner helps them feel welcome. They still never dare to hold hands but the hugs at every Ipswich goal are extra special because they can express such joy and connection together in public. You wouldn't know they were a couple unless you see the sparkle in their eyes when they look at each other.
It's entirely possible to be both gay and Muslim. It's also entirely possible to be accepting (I hate that word) of others without compromising how you live your own life.
Wearing a rainbow armband is not an encouragement to be gay. No one is going to suddenly decide to be gay once they see it! It is a signal that people who have historically been (and still are) the target of violence, do not need to hide and are welcome.
We do not know our club captain's motivations yet but that the club ‘respects’ his decision not to visibly support creating such a welcoming environment is not great. There are other words to use.
That gay Muslim Ipswich Town fan enjoyed cheering a fellow Muslim leading out his football team until now. What has happened, and especially the vocal reaction of many uncaring thoughtless people since, has brought back far too many bad memories for him. He is not excited about tonight anymore.
I thought we were much better than this. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:10 - Dec 3 with 1670 views | Kievthegreat |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:47 - Dec 3 by NederlandseBlue |
There are some great posts hidden in this thread, providing a bit of relief after seeing the news comments which are overwhelmingly horrendous.
A special thank you to those who acknowledged they’ve changed their views, such as The Flashing Smile and J2, or apologised for not realising the impact that this choice by our club captain has had on some supporters.
Thank you too to those who have shared their own personal experiences, like pointofblue, SuperBlue1998 and urbanpenguin. Your stories are really powerful, and I hope help others.
I know a gay Muslim guy. He was raised in a deeply religious country and spent most of his teenage years desperately trying to be the strictest Muslim possible while praying to no longer be gay. He regularly heard of gay people ostracised by their families and left homeless, being violently attacked, even killed, or killing themselves. The perpetrators of this abuse were celebrated around him. Eventually it became too much, and he fled to the UK. (Let's not pretend such horrible things don’t happen here too – it’s why we still need campaigns like Rainbow Laces – but it was better for him)
He then discovered a support group that helps people reconcile being gay with being Muslim. He is still not 'out' to his family. He found love too, to an Ipswich Town supporter. They have regularly gone to Portman Road over the years and the Rainbow Tractors flag in the corner helps them feel welcome. They still never dare to hold hands but the hugs at every Ipswich goal are extra special because they can express such joy and connection together in public. You wouldn't know they were a couple unless you see the sparkle in their eyes when they look at each other.
It's entirely possible to be both gay and Muslim. It's also entirely possible to be accepting (I hate that word) of others without compromising how you live your own life.
Wearing a rainbow armband is not an encouragement to be gay. No one is going to suddenly decide to be gay once they see it! It is a signal that people who have historically been (and still are) the target of violence, do not need to hide and are welcome.
We do not know our club captain's motivations yet but that the club ‘respects’ his decision not to visibly support creating such a welcoming environment is not great. There are other words to use.
That gay Muslim Ipswich Town fan enjoyed cheering a fellow Muslim leading out his football team until now. What has happened, and especially the vocal reaction of many uncaring thoughtless people since, has brought back far too many bad memories for him. He is not excited about tonight anymore.
I thought we were much better than this. |
I hope he still goes tonight. This is his football club and I still believe that the majority of the fans support him and want to welcome him. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:26 - Dec 3 with 1612 views | NewcyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:03 - Dec 3 by noggin |
Oh there is a story here, we're already at 19 pages on TWTD. Like players taking, or not taking the knee and people choosing not to wear a poppy, it creates hysteria among groups of people who want to feel offended on behalf of others. The irony is, our Grandfathers fought for Sam Morsy's right to choose. Of course, the offended are also free to feel offended, in a free country.
Edit,. 20 pages. [Post edited 3 Dec 2024 12:03]
|
You’re wrong. |  |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:35 - Dec 3 with 1558 views | NewcyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:28 - Dec 3 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
I suggest people go and see the post from benchwarmers on Facebook. 4,000 comments and I’d say over 90% in support of Sam Morsy. Here the percentage is much less. That is purely because hiding behind a username people are saying different just to create an argument. If you speak to your mates majority will be in favour of Morsy and the 4,000 comments prove that. |
You mean that there are more people on here willing to stand up for the right for people to be themselves? That must be awful to read.
Enjoy Fakebook. | |
| |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:58 - Dec 3 with 1443 views | waveneyblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:35 - Dec 3 by NewcyBlue |
You mean that there are more people on here willing to stand up for the right for people to be themselves? That must be awful to read.
Enjoy Fakebook. |
I strongly suggest that most of the contributors on this thread don't listen to Simon Jordans comments on the subject.
But you will all dismiss him, I mean, what does he know about the football industry that you don't | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:10 - Dec 3 with 1385 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:30 - Dec 3 by FrimleyBlue |
Well he was born in Wolverhampton, a country that has progressed incredibly well despite slowly in acceptance of all of it's people. He may have indeed over that time immersed himself in Muslim principles, but he would also be fully aware and you'd have hoped acceptable to the principles of the country he was born in. |
Not sure you intended it but thanks for bringing some levity to such a heavy discussion. This made me laugh;
"Well he was born in Wolverhampton, a country that has progressed incredibly well despite slowly..." |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
