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Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this? Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:32 - Dec 4 by Blueschev
Isn't a lifestyle the way in which someone chooses to live?
The dictionary definition I looked up is as quoted - 'the way in which a person lives'.
I previously mentioned that some words (homophobic, tolerance, etc) used in this thread have been interpreted differently by people, but if used strictly in the dictionary definitions, would probably have avoided a lot of miscommunication.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:36 - Dec 4 with 1501 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:32 - Dec 4 by Blueschev
Isn't a lifestyle the way in which someone chooses to live?
Also, I think social media 'influencers', etc have changed the meaning a bit over the years to denote choice. That's why we get a lot of the arguments on here, I think! Lol!
For example, Oxford English Dictionary has two definitions:
1. A style or way of living (associated with an individual person, a society, etc.); esp. the characteristic manner in which a person lives (or chooses to live) his or her life.
2. Psychology. In Adlerian psychology: a pattern of reactions and behaviour that is established in childhood and remains characteristic of an individual.
Neither are wrong, in regards to homosexually, I don't think, but some could argue that the (chooses to) element of definition 1 is why many get frustrated at the use of the term in this context.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 16:41]
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:39 - Dec 4 with 1481 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:35 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
The dictionary definition I looked up is as quoted - 'the way in which a person lives'.
I previously mentioned that some words (homophobic, tolerance, etc) used in this thread have been interpreted differently by people, but if used strictly in the dictionary definitions, would probably have avoided a lot of miscommunication.
There’s a difference between the dictionary definition and the intended meaning of the word. And it undeniably clear that when people have describe those within the LGBTQIA+ community as a lifestyle they are meaning choice.
Morsy’s deliberate action to not support the cause has indeed caused harm.
It is not inaction. His action was in the contrary.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:02 - Dec 4 by Blueschev
I find the books of all three Abrahamic religions absolutely vile in large parts, and cannot for the life of me understand the appeal of worshipping a cruel, vengeful, jealous and apocalyptic dictator, who creates man with original sin only to sadistically punish them for alleged misdeeds engrained in their very design.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 15:06]
Even for religions, Original Sin must be one of the most fecked up concepts ever thought of.
Has lead to absolute chaos in Ireland ( see Tuam baby scandal etc) due to unchristened babies not being allowed to be buried on church land. And therefore being deposited/ buried in all kinds of strange and unsuitable places.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:48 - Dec 4 with 1417 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:39 - Dec 4 by NewcyBlue
There’s a difference between the dictionary definition and the intended meaning of the word. And it undeniably clear that when people have describe those within the LGBTQIA+ community as a lifestyle they are meaning choice.
Morsy’s deliberate action to not support the cause has indeed caused harm.
It is not inaction. His action was in the contrary.
If so, then people should make that clearer, to be fair.
Some of us (including me) are on the autism spectrum and don't always read subtle inference when it isn't very obviously there. I also go with dictionary definitions as my point of reference (probably because of the ASD) because that makes sense to me, and think it should make clear what I mean. It's a method that has worked for hundreds of years, after all! However, that doesn't mean I don't want to join the reasoned and well-mannered conversation, even if we can't all read into what interpretations of a word or phrase might mean to each individual.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I choose the dictionary definition because it is a rule upon which I can usually rely!
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:48 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
If so, then people should make that clearer, to be fair.
Some of us (including me) are on the autism spectrum and don't always read subtle inference when it isn't very obviously there. I also go with dictionary definitions as my point of reference (probably because of the ASD) because that makes sense to me, and think it should make clear what I mean. It's a method that has worked for hundreds of years, after all! However, that doesn't mean I don't want to join the reasoned and well-mannered conversation, even if we can't all read into what interpretations of a word or phrase might mean to each individual.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I choose the dictionary definition because it is a rule upon which I can usually rely!
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 16:50]
And that is understood; it's accepted that you meant no harm by your original choice of words, and that it was unintended error.
But now you have to learn from it. You've been told and explained multiple times why what you said is not OK and why people have pulled you up on it.
To continue to use that language and argue the point will become disrespectful and a dick move. Don't be that guy.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:15 - Dec 4 with 1294 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:12 - Dec 4 by DropCliffsNotBombs
And that is understood; it's accepted that you meant no harm by your original choice of words, and that it was unintended error.
But now you have to learn from it. You've been told and explained multiple times why what you said is not OK and why people have pulled you up on it.
To continue to use that language and argue the point will become disrespectful and a dick move. Don't be that guy.
I don't think I've been a dick or used words in error, and wouldn't be if I continued to use the established, accepted use of English language in my posts. That's offensive and unwarranted abuse.
Also, I'm not a guy.
I challenge you to point out any of my comments that have been abusive or unkind.
Bad form, DropsCliffs.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 17:17]
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:18 - Dec 4 with 1267 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:15 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
I don't think I've been a dick or used words in error, and wouldn't be if I continued to use the established, accepted use of English language in my posts. That's offensive and unwarranted abuse.
Also, I'm not a guy.
I challenge you to point out any of my comments that have been abusive or unkind.
Bad form, DropsCliffs.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 17:17]
Firstly, apologies for assuming your gender.
Haven't said you have been a dick - just that were you to continue equating sexuality as a lifestyle choice, that would make you one. Don't continue to use thatanguage and you won't be one.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:18 - Dec 4 with 1257 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:18 - Dec 4 by DropCliffsNotBombs
Firstly, apologies for assuming your gender.
Haven't said you have been a dick - just that were you to continue equating sexuality as a lifestyle choice, that would make you one. Don't continue to use thatanguage and you won't be one.
I'm not calling it a lifestyle 'choice'. I'm calling it a lifestyle, in the accepted dictionary definition of the term.
But if it matters that much, would 'way of life' be more a more acceptable term? If not, how would you want me to define the way someone lives their life? I'm open to using a word or phrase that is perceived in a less antagonist manner.
Apology accepted, for the misunderstanding. I apologise if I have caused offence by not communicating effectively, too.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 17:27]
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:22 - Dec 4 with 1231 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:58 - Dec 4 by Swailsey
I don’t think you using the word ‘offence’ consistently (albeit on the different side here) helps your cause. You seem to be at pains to point out how that’s different to harm. Playing devil’s advocate on such an emotive and difficult topic is a strange hill to die on and doesn’t seem necessary.
Very few (if any) people have been dismissive about faith as a whole. Faith doesn’t given you free rein to marginalise or discriminate against others. Something you seemingly fail to grasp.
I won’t reply to any further points you make; but it seems you are just trying to use technical language and semantics to get a rise out of people and that doesn’t seem on.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 15:00]
Apologies to you for my reaction to this, it is a very emotive subject and I may have misconstrued what you were going for.
Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:26 - Dec 4 with 1207 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:00 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
"You may disapprove of the smokers or swearers, on a more trivial level, but you accept their inclusion in life and work. Morsy has declined that message for LGBTQIA+ people."
I'm not sure that Morsy has refused to 'accept their inclusion in life and work', though. That's a point that many seem to be making, but that I don't agree with, personally. Refusal to do something in direct support of that person's personal life, does not by default mean that you refuse to accept those people in your work environment. Clearly you can accept those people and treat them as you would like to be treated, without directly supporting an initiative.
Even Stonewall said in their statement to The Mirror article on Sam Morsy that it is every individual's right to decide whether or not to take part in the Rainbow Laces campaign. If that is their stance on it, as organisers, then it shouldn't then cause the furore that it seems to have done, as it's missing the point of the campaign, according to those who created it.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 16:07]
Rainbow Tractors and Stonewall have been admirable on this, certainly. I'm glad that Morsy's rejection of inclusion has been met with a degree of public rejection, personally, but I also acknowledge it has received fervent support from some groups and respect from others. The Premier League's campaign objectives are clear, I'll link them below.
Maybe it is the third paragraph that he finds himself unable to endorse, on 'positive attitudes'. Hopefully the Kick It Out campaign won't be met with such stumbling blocks later on in the season, with some players unable to endorse 'positive attitudes' towards black and ethnic minority engagement in football. Curiously there's been no criticism of the Premier League's 'no room for racism' slogan, which has been 'foisted' on every player's shirt for every game this season, and yet the expectation on captains to wear the rainbow armband for two games has drawn ire from half the internet, judging from BBC comments.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:35 - Dec 4 with 1169 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:26 - Dec 4 by Vegtablue
Rainbow Tractors and Stonewall have been admirable on this, certainly. I'm glad that Morsy's rejection of inclusion has been met with a degree of public rejection, personally, but I also acknowledge it has received fervent support from some groups and respect from others. The Premier League's campaign objectives are clear, I'll link them below.
Maybe it is the third paragraph that he finds himself unable to endorse, on 'positive attitudes'. Hopefully the Kick It Out campaign won't be met with such stumbling blocks later on in the season, with some players unable to endorse 'positive attitudes' towards black and ethnic minority engagement in football. Curiously there's been no criticism of the Premier League's 'no room for racism' slogan, which has been 'foisted' on every player's shirt for every game this season, and yet the expectation on captains to wear the rainbow armband for two games has drawn ire from half the internet, judging from BBC comments.
I do agree that his position on the issue makes for an extremely awkward and counterproductive mixed message for the club.
I understand his position, I support his right to not get involved, I'm sad that it has caused some people to feel hurt, and I believe that if you sign up to being in a position such as captain, and know that it will include taking the lead in promoting initiatives you don't align to, then you should consider whether the role is the right one for you, or be prepared to have another player captain on these types of events in your place. However, if he did the latter, he would probably still receive negative reactions, which is also a shame.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:01 - Dec 4 with 1112 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:18 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
I'm not calling it a lifestyle 'choice'. I'm calling it a lifestyle, in the accepted dictionary definition of the term.
But if it matters that much, would 'way of life' be more a more acceptable term? If not, how would you want me to define the way someone lives their life? I'm open to using a word or phrase that is perceived in a less antagonist manner.
Apology accepted, for the misunderstanding. I apologise if I have caused offence by not communicating effectively, too.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 17:27]
It is no more a way of life than being black, or female, or old. Etc. It is incidious language to use; suggesting choice. It is the language of religous bigots trying to tapdance around the subject and justifybthe unjustifiable. I urge you not to use it.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:25 - Dec 4 with 1060 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 17:35 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
I do agree that his position on the issue makes for an extremely awkward and counterproductive mixed message for the club.
I understand his position, I support his right to not get involved, I'm sad that it has caused some people to feel hurt, and I believe that if you sign up to being in a position such as captain, and know that it will include taking the lead in promoting initiatives you don't align to, then you should consider whether the role is the right one for you, or be prepared to have another player captain on these types of events in your place. However, if he did the latter, he would probably still receive negative reactions, which is also a shame.
For sure and I think it's a reminder of how far we still have to travel as a society. Once these debates were commonplace around racism, and probably there were attempts to bridge the divide through respecting all sides ('you hold racist views and I respect them, while you are subject to racism and I respect you too; let's all respect each other please, albeit you don't respect them and albeit you suffer as a result of their beliefs'). Now it's very uncommon to find people who respect racism, or people's sincere racist beliefs, or racist faith, but it is seemingly quite common to find people who respect both homophobia and homosexuals.
If someone were to refuse to wear the 'no room for racism' slogan, doubtless we wouldn't be hitting 30 pages of disagreement on TWTD. We would mostly be outspoken in our criticism, even if we respected anyone's right to decide what they do and don't wear. We wouldn't be respecting that player's beliefs and 'both-sides-ing' the two 'viewpoints'.
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:28 - Dec 4 with 1054 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:01 - Dec 4 by redrickstuhaart
It is no more a way of life than being black, or female, or old. Etc. It is incidious language to use; suggesting choice. It is the language of religous bigots trying to tapdance around the subject and justifybthe unjustifiable. I urge you not to use it.
Thank you for your explanation. I will take on board what you have said, and I respect your opinion.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 18:52]
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My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 18:54 - Dec 4 with 970 views
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:52 - Dec 4 by Ryorry
Well said.
One thing that bugs me about Christianity is the hypocrisy - on the one hand Jesus supposedly loves everyone; on the other hand homosexuality is forbidden, so apparently Jesus didn’t love everyone.
Contradictions everywhere within organised religions, one reason for me being an atheist (or agnostic - I do believe in Mother Nature!).
In fairness to JC, he didn't write the rules. That was done by a conclave in 4th century Rome*.
I stand to be corrected as it's not something I'm particularly knowledgeable about.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:23 - Dec 4 by Hugoagogo_Reborn
Does this not come down to the principle that you can love a person, but not necessarily agree with their lifestyle choices? For example, I don't agree with smoking. I dislike the action, I believe it harmful. However, I've been incredibly fond of, and loved, in my life, people who practice(d) that habit.
I also don't like that some people swear every other sentence. I find it wholly unnecessary. Yet people who I like very much in my workplace swear constantly.
The fact that I dislike their actions does not mean that I dislike the person. Do my thoughts on their lifestyle cause them harm? Not if I treat them respectfully and kindly. If I was asked to actively show my support for their lifestyle, I could not in good conscience do so. Would my inaction signal that I hated them or disrespected them?
The part of this discussion I find very hard to understand is why people can't separate a 'thought' they disagree with from 'harm' caused to an individual .
Homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people Prejudice: dislike, hostility, or unjust behaviour deriving from preconceived and unfounded opinions.
Neither of those definitions infer that a dislike of an 'action' = dislike of an individual person or group of people.
Another word I've seen misappropriated a fair bit in this thread is tolerance - ' the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with.
As a few have mentioned on here, policing thoughts is a dangerous road. Policing inaction? Potentially equally as dangerous.
Policing actual hate-motivated behaviour, hate speech, abuse or unkindness. Absolutely!
[Post edited 4 Dec 2024 15:46]
"Does this not come down to the principle that you can love a person, but not necessarily agree with their lifestyle choices? For example, I don't agree with smoking. I dislike the action, I believe it harmful. However, I've been incredibly fond of, and loved, in my life, people who practice(d) that habit."
The old maxim of "forgive the sinner, not the sin" simply can't be applied to those who have no choice in the matter. Your hubbie & friends can choose to smoke, swear, or not; they can't choose to be born as straight, gay, bi, curly or straight-haired, tall or short etc.
Agree with your later comments re thought-policing.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 16:41 - Dec 4 by leitrimblue
Even for religions, Original Sin must be one of the most fecked up concepts ever thought of.
Has lead to absolute chaos in Ireland ( see Tuam baby scandal etc) due to unchristened babies not being allowed to be buried on church land. And therefore being deposited/ buried in all kinds of strange and unsuitable places.
Going off piste here slightly, I was at a friend's funeral last week who was a Roman Catholic.
Sadly, at my age. I'm going to more and more funerals each year but I've never seen anything like a Catholic funeral.
My friend was. a bit part player at her own funeral. No funny stories from friends or family. Just a Priest going on about sin. God and Jesus were mentioned far more than her and we were given ten minutes at what I thought was the start, where the Priest told us for think about our sins and ask God for forgiveness.
My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 19:03 - Dec 4 by Ryorry
"Does this not come down to the principle that you can love a person, but not necessarily agree with their lifestyle choices? For example, I don't agree with smoking. I dislike the action, I believe it harmful. However, I've been incredibly fond of, and loved, in my life, people who practice(d) that habit."
The old maxim of "forgive the sinner, not the sin" simply can't be applied to those who have no choice in the matter. Your hubbie & friends can choose to smoke, swear, or not; they can't choose to be born as straight, gay, bi, curly or straight-haired, tall or short etc.
Agree with your later comments re thought-policing.
Thanks for your interesting reply.
I'm amazed at the kaleidoscope of views which agree with some parts of a person's opinions nd not with others. It's unusual to have an internet forum that can handle a full spectrum of opinions and, aside from one or two unsavoury responses in the 30 pages on here, I think it has been an engaging and inclusive discussion.
Ultimately, though, humans being as they are, it's unlikely any one side of the debate will have been able to change the mind of another.
What I do hope is that we all have taken something from it that we didn't have before, be that respect, perspective, or knowledge.
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