| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason 14:06 - Dec 2 with 81841 views | chicoazul |
Now that the club has confirmed Morsy chose not to wear the armband, how do our LGBTQ fans feel about this?
Like I say I would continue the interesting conversation we were having but that thread is locked. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:07 - Dec 5 with 1467 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:40 - Dec 2 by Swailsey |
And homophobic, sexist and racist. Hence these initiatives. |
That is covered by abusive. Otherwise you are trying to police thought crimes. |  | | |
| I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 11:10 - Dec 5 with 1431 views | Europablue |
| I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 14:47 - Dec 2 by textbackup |
I wonder on how this would affect how he’d be towards an openly gay player in his team. |
We used to have something called tolerance. The idea is that you don't have to like something, but you do have to respect it. The problem comes when people demand that you embrace something you disagree with. Even if I agree with something, I don't want that forced on someone else. That won't change minds anyway. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:13 - Dec 5 with 1395 views | Blueschev |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:01 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
What you are asking for is basically compelled speech (speech has a very broad legal meaning). People have to get involved with a campaign regardless of their feelings on the issue.
In the case of Morsy, he has not come out and said anything he has simply declined to take part in the campaign. It is obviously for religious reasons, but the details of that are unclear. he clearly does not have such a hardline stance that he will refuse to play for a team that gets involved in the campaign.
There are so many reasons not to support the campaign and each person has the right to their own freedom of thought. It is deeply troubling that a movement that is supposed to be against persecution of a lifestyle is so intent on persecuting non-believers.
Who gets to determine what we are compelled to support? Where do you draw the line?
Are gay people who don't like Stonewall allowed to not support the campaign?
The only sane way to do it is to be able to opt out. The club can fine Morsy if he speaks out against the campaign.
Personally, I don't like the idea of singling out gay people in any way even if it is supposed to positive. Just let them be normal fans of the clubs they support without pledging to be part of a political movement. |
Non-believers in a lifestyle? Blimey. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:17 - Dec 5 with 1337 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:48 - Dec 2 by baxterbasics |
I'm fine with letting players decide if they want to wear stuff like this or not, there shouldn't be pressure. If it's a Stonewall initiative then it's a political statement. Much like taking the knee. And yes before anyone says it, for consistency, I would say the same about the Poppy.
I bet the club wouldn't have been so relaxed about it if Morsy was a practicing Christian though. |
Up until you mentioned Christians, I was with you. You might be right, but I'll push back and say that the comparison between Guehi and Morsy is not apples and oranges. Morsy refused to take part, Guehi took part, but changed what was said.
It would be nice if people could try and think more rationally and less emotionally. We have to think about how something is to be applied fairly and consistently and works in a case where you agree with what is being done or said as well as when you disagree.
I would probably criticize someone for not wearing a poppy, but that person should still have the right to opt out. We are still free to criticize Guehi and Morsy. We should even be free to criticize how different religions are treated and special allowances are made for religious people vs non-religious people. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:18 - Dec 5 with 1313 views | noggin |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:17 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
Up until you mentioned Christians, I was with you. You might be right, but I'll push back and say that the comparison between Guehi and Morsy is not apples and oranges. Morsy refused to take part, Guehi took part, but changed what was said.
It would be nice if people could try and think more rationally and less emotionally. We have to think about how something is to be applied fairly and consistently and works in a case where you agree with what is being done or said as well as when you disagree.
I would probably criticize someone for not wearing a poppy, but that person should still have the right to opt out. We are still free to criticize Guehi and Morsy. We should even be free to criticize how different religions are treated and special allowances are made for religious people vs non-religious people. |
Out of interest, why would you criticise someone for not wearing a poppy? |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:21 - Dec 5 with 1301 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 14:55 - Dec 2 by Blueschev |
I would argue that accepting the LGBTQ+ society is more important than accepting Muslim beliefs. People do not chose to be gay, it's who they are. Religion is a man-made construct. |
There is no such thing as an LGBTQ+ person. There are gays, lesbians, bisexuals and whatever, but they are distinct people and mostly sexual preference is not a defining feature.
LGBTQ+ is a political movement. Talking about "societies" is political. In my view there is only one society and everyone is part of it. There are different demographics. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:29 - Dec 5 with 1211 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:21 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
There is no such thing as an LGBTQ+ person. There are gays, lesbians, bisexuals and whatever, but they are distinct people and mostly sexual preference is not a defining feature.
LGBTQ+ is a political movement. Talking about "societies" is political. In my view there is only one society and everyone is part of it. There are different demographics. |
there's also the question of whether a community can be defined on the basis of sexuality as well as on the basis of differing gender identities. they are very different things - and will be in conflict to a degree. it's hardly a cohesive way of grouping people together. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:31 - Dec 5 with 1188 views | DJR |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:17 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
Up until you mentioned Christians, I was with you. You might be right, but I'll push back and say that the comparison between Guehi and Morsy is not apples and oranges. Morsy refused to take part, Guehi took part, but changed what was said.
It would be nice if people could try and think more rationally and less emotionally. We have to think about how something is to be applied fairly and consistently and works in a case where you agree with what is being done or said as well as when you disagree.
I would probably criticize someone for not wearing a poppy, but that person should still have the right to opt out. We are still free to criticize Guehi and Morsy. We should even be free to criticize how different religions are treated and special allowances are made for religious people vs non-religious people. |
I don't think anyone on here has said that Morsy doesn't have the right to do what he has done.
Indeed, this brings to mind a recent caller on LBC on a discussion about this issue who said she felt under pressure to consent to certain views, but when she was asked to give an example of when she been actually been asked or required to consent to a particular view she couldn't give an example. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 11:35]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:32 - Dec 5 with 1182 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 15:04 - Dec 2 by Jrm_72 |
This.
Remove the word "religious" from that sentence, as its utterly irrelevant. I personally really enjoy Agatha Christie, but my favourite choice of fiction is no more valid than Sam's or anyone else's.
So the sentence becomes "our captain Sam Morsy, who has chosen not to wear the rainbow captain's armband, due to his beliefs." Which is the same as saying "Sam Morsy is a homophobe, and that's a-ok with us."
I'm ashamed. I am ashamed of my club and its captain. The club I've supported as a boy - the club of my grandfather, father, mother, brother, and two sons. A club that has now said "James, its perfectly fine for Sam Morsy to hate your brothers for who they are just because a really old book told him to."
The previous thread had some great contributions to the debate on both sides (smattered with some comically naive ones too) so its a shame it was locked. Will be even more livid than I am now if its turns out its the site acquiescing to pressure from the club again that caused it.
Human rights trumps religious freedom and has EVERYTHING to do with football. |
Except you don't know what Sam Morsy is thinking. He might have love for all people and dislike certain behaviours or lifestyles or have all sorts of different motivations that you can't assume.
It's sad if you feel that way that he personally hates you or your family members or friends.
You don't seem to understand the concept of human rights properly if you are trying to compel someone to comply with your beliefs. Of course gay people have the right to exist and of course should not suffer violence or abuse, but there is no human right to be accepted or liked. Just think of what kind of authoritarian society we would have to have to achieve what you seem to want. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:44 - Dec 5 with 1101 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:13 - Dec 5 by Blueschev |
Non-believers in a lifestyle? Blimey. |
Focus on the bit that makes you feel good and ignore the rest. The dictionary definition of lifestyle is "the way in which a person lives", note that I didn't say anything about a choice.
If we can't rationally discuss these issues how can we hope to have a functioning society that doesn't become authoritarian?
Do you actually know any gay people? Have you asked them about LGBT+ and activism?
Most gay people are just normal people, they don't want preferential treatment. A lot of gay people hate LGBT+ activism and see equal rights as being achieved. Trying to force acceptance only gives more reason to hate. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:46 - Dec 5 with 1094 views | gringoblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:44 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
Focus on the bit that makes you feel good and ignore the rest. The dictionary definition of lifestyle is "the way in which a person lives", note that I didn't say anything about a choice.
If we can't rationally discuss these issues how can we hope to have a functioning society that doesn't become authoritarian?
Do you actually know any gay people? Have you asked them about LGBT+ and activism?
Most gay people are just normal people, they don't want preferential treatment. A lot of gay people hate LGBT+ activism and see equal rights as being achieved. Trying to force acceptance only gives more reason to hate. |
preferential treatment? What are you on about exactly?
"A lot of gay people hate LGBT+ activism and see equal rights as being achieved" Citation needed. |  | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:50 - Dec 5 with 1067 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:18 - Dec 5 by noggin |
Out of interest, why would you criticise someone for not wearing a poppy? |
My view is that the poppy stands for people who gave their lives in service and it actually applies to everyone and is respect for the dead and hope that we can move on from violence. It applies equally to British, Irish, French, German, American, Italian or whatever soldiers who died. I always think back to the Christmas Day football match between the British and German troops during WW1 and think that those young men were basically the pawns of higher powers. I actually see the wearing of the poppy as politically neutral. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:55 - Dec 5 with 1033 views | gringoblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:46 - Dec 5 by gringoblue |
preferential treatment? What are you on about exactly?
"A lot of gay people hate LGBT+ activism and see equal rights as being achieved" Citation needed. |
I'd also just add that, even if equality in law has been achieved for all, that doesn't stop prejudice existing in society or institutions. Why are there no out gay men's professional footballers?** There is no law against it and yet...
Also hard won equality can easily be reversed without vigilance.
** forgot about Jake Daniels at Blackpool [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 11:58]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:59 - Dec 5 with 1001 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:31 - Dec 5 by DJR |
I don't think anyone on here has said that Morsy doesn't have the right to do what he has done.
Indeed, this brings to mind a recent caller on LBC on a discussion about this issue who said she felt under pressure to consent to certain views, but when she was asked to give an example of when she been actually been asked or required to consent to a particular view she couldn't give an example. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 11:35]
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You are just using a rhetorical trick trying to twist my words to fit your point. I just said that Morsy has the right to opt out and should have that right. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:05 - Dec 5 with 976 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:46 - Dec 5 by gringoblue |
preferential treatment? What are you on about exactly?
"A lot of gay people hate LGBT+ activism and see equal rights as being achieved" Citation needed. |
The context is quite clear when I said "Most gay people are just normal people, they don't want preferential treatment."
It makes no sense to say "citation needed" when I am clearly talking about gay people I know. Do you want me to get a quote from "gay mate Dave" or something? Don't you understand gay people wanting to just be left alone and not have to be an activist for a part of them that hardly defines them?
Can you cite an unequal law? I'm not talking about societal or personal beliefs here. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:05 - Dec 5 with 975 views | tractorboy7777 |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:44 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
Focus on the bit that makes you feel good and ignore the rest. The dictionary definition of lifestyle is "the way in which a person lives", note that I didn't say anything about a choice.
If we can't rationally discuss these issues how can we hope to have a functioning society that doesn't become authoritarian?
Do you actually know any gay people? Have you asked them about LGBT+ and activism?
Most gay people are just normal people, they don't want preferential treatment. A lot of gay people hate LGBT+ activism and see equal rights as being achieved. Trying to force acceptance only gives more reason to hate. |
I am a gay person and I do not want preferential treatment. I live my life in worry that I might come across someone who doesn’t accept my sexuality. I live my life having to be careful where i live in case my neighbours do not accept me for who I am and not who I want to be. I am grateful that society in the UK has become far more accepting of gay people than it was before my time but there is still work to be done to make sure others younger than me don’t have to live their younger days in fear.
The weekends initiative was to show the younger people it is ok to be gay and involved in football.
It is sad to see so many people still believe being gay is a life choice and these initiatives are to push for others to join us in what you call a ‘life style’.
I hope one day there will be a top footballer comfortable to be who they are without fear of being ‘outed’ in the public eye and face abuse. | |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:06 - Dec 5 with 968 views | J2BLUE |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:03 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
Look into Stonewall. There is a lot of controversy surrounding them especially with the causes they support and how they are funded. |
There seems to be a growing belief from within the community that Stonewall have changed direction and are now all about trans rights. There's a growing movement from **some** LGB people to splinter off from the T+ group. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 12:09]
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:12 - Dec 5 with 944 views | FrimleyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:32 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
Except you don't know what Sam Morsy is thinking. He might have love for all people and dislike certain behaviours or lifestyles or have all sorts of different motivations that you can't assume.
It's sad if you feel that way that he personally hates you or your family members or friends.
You don't seem to understand the concept of human rights properly if you are trying to compel someone to comply with your beliefs. Of course gay people have the right to exist and of course should not suffer violence or abuse, but there is no human right to be accepted or liked. Just think of what kind of authoritarian society we would have to have to achieve what you seem to want. |
Personally, i think IF morsy was in the supportive category then whilst I appreciate there may be family reasons why he did not want to wear the armband, he could have requested to the club that they made someone else captain and he could have followed that up with a personal statement about him being accepting of the change of captain to enable the club to support the occasion.
I'm still absolutely baffled though that the crowd were singing his song early on like he was some form of victim in this, ( I also read about it before the game on socials ) for me, that showed how far away the society is when that's the message they've taken from this whole situation. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:20 - Dec 5 with 900 views | gringoblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:05 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
The context is quite clear when I said "Most gay people are just normal people, they don't want preferential treatment."
It makes no sense to say "citation needed" when I am clearly talking about gay people I know. Do you want me to get a quote from "gay mate Dave" or something? Don't you understand gay people wanting to just be left alone and not have to be an activist for a part of them that hardly defines them?
Can you cite an unequal law? I'm not talking about societal or personal beliefs here. |
The context wasn't clear or I wouldn't have asked. You didn't say a "A lot of gay people I know". | | | |
| I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 12:21 - Dec 5 with 898 views | Vegtablue |
| I'd be "extremely disappointed".... on 11:10 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
We used to have something called tolerance. The idea is that you don't have to like something, but you do have to respect it. The problem comes when people demand that you embrace something you disagree with. Even if I agree with something, I don't want that forced on someone else. That won't change minds anyway. |
I want to avoid replying to most of your points because they've already been addressed in great detail and in various directions, both for and against, but this is poorly considered on two levels. Firstly, your version of tolerance, of what tolerance was in your nostalgic past, is intolerant in its design. 'You do have to respect it', whatever that something is. You have zero tolerance for not respecting something. The difference between allowing the existence or practice of various things, which do not meet the threshold of illegality, and being compelled to respect all these things, is huge.
Secondly, the views held, which you believe should be respected, clearly meet your definition of intolerance. They are views that do not respect something, in this instance LGBTGIA+ inclusion. Racist views do not respect their targets. Homophobic views do not respect their targets. There is no respect for homosexuals in the tenets of homophobia, it is the rejection of them. These 'somethings' were antithetical to your idea of tolerance in their conception, and you then compound the misstep through your intolerant command that they be respected, in order to achieve tolerance ("the idea is that you don't have to like something, but you do have to respect it").
As for not forcing things on others, that is why pretty much everyone accepts, embraces even, Morsy's right in our society to refuse to provide his support to this message of inclusion. Some have been intolerant of the consequential criticism - criticism of Morsy, of the club, or of both - and some have disagreed with that criticism, while tolerating the right of others to make it. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:21 - Dec 5 with 898 views | lowhouseblue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:06 - Dec 5 by J2BLUE |
There seems to be a growing belief from within the community that Stonewall have changed direction and are now all about trans rights. There's a growing movement from **some** LGB people to splinter off from the T+ group. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 12:09]
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stonewall has got itself into a bit of a hole. there are accusations that towards the end of the last decade, following the equal marriage act, it reached an view as a charity that it's original campaigning had largely run its course and if it wanted to survive as an institution it needed to refocus on a new cause. it then picked up the trans issue - and the accusations is that it did it in a very divisive way (divisive both with the wider public and with some lgb people). a lot of people, companies, institutions etc which previously backed it no longer do. it's recent campaigning has generated lots of controversy and division - to the point that you wonder if that's their tactic. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:33 - Dec 5 with 829 views | DJR |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:59 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
You are just using a rhetorical trick trying to twist my words to fit your point. I just said that Morsy has the right to opt out and should have that right. |
That was the point I was making too. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:02 - Dec 5 with 722 views | Europablue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 12:05 - Dec 5 by tractorboy7777 |
I am a gay person and I do not want preferential treatment. I live my life in worry that I might come across someone who doesn’t accept my sexuality. I live my life having to be careful where i live in case my neighbours do not accept me for who I am and not who I want to be. I am grateful that society in the UK has become far more accepting of gay people than it was before my time but there is still work to be done to make sure others younger than me don’t have to live their younger days in fear.
The weekends initiative was to show the younger people it is ok to be gay and involved in football.
It is sad to see so many people still believe being gay is a life choice and these initiatives are to push for others to join us in what you call a ‘life style’.
I hope one day there will be a top footballer comfortable to be who they are without fear of being ‘outed’ in the public eye and face abuse. |
I get that you have had a lot of negative interactions with intolerant over your life and you might be primed to see intolerance where there is none. How you live your life is your lifestyle so whether you are straight or gay it is a lifestyle. There is even an element of choice in there at least historically there has been in that if a person is gay they can choose to be out or not, obviously if we are talking about historical cases, it was often not much of a choice because there was a lot of discrimination, often violent.
"I live my life having to be careful where i live in case my neighbours do not accept me for who I am and not who I want to be." Is that currently a major concern, or do you think that feeling might be ingrained in your thinking? Tell me if I'm ignorant, but I don't hear from any gay people I know that there are places that they can't live. To a certain extent people are always going to judge you and everyone else and we all have to have a thick enough skin. If my neighbours don't like me for some reason, that it fine because we just have to get on as neighbours and we don't have to be friends.
In today's society there is a unique group of people who would not be comfortable coming out: male professional footballers. The reason for that is partly to avoid abuse, but mostly because players want to be judged on their football and sexuality is irrelevant and even positive coverage would be intolerable. Maybe an average footballer can come out while playing, but he's going to have to be an activist.
I feel like society is ready to move past these performative "inclusion" of a specific group which is inherently exclusive even if it is meant as a positive in giving preferential treatment like having the club provide LGBT football sessions.
I think we are ready for the default attitude that gay people are welcome to play football and we can move on from campaigns highlighting gay people (the Stonewall activists will hate this idea). Of course, there can still be inclusivity campaigns, but it shouldn't be based on race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc. Basically, unless there is an incident of abusive chanting, then no specific action is necessary. I really do think that we risk planting seeds of discrimination when we tell young people that historically this group is the victim class. | | | |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:13 - Dec 5 with 660 views | Mullet |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 11:18 - Dec 5 by noggin |
Out of interest, why would you criticise someone for not wearing a poppy? |
A complete misunderstanding of what the poppy means and stands for presumably. |  |
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| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:18 - Dec 5 with 630 views | FrimleyBlue |
| My armband thread has been locked for whatever reason on 13:02 - Dec 5 by Europablue |
I get that you have had a lot of negative interactions with intolerant over your life and you might be primed to see intolerance where there is none. How you live your life is your lifestyle so whether you are straight or gay it is a lifestyle. There is even an element of choice in there at least historically there has been in that if a person is gay they can choose to be out or not, obviously if we are talking about historical cases, it was often not much of a choice because there was a lot of discrimination, often violent.
"I live my life having to be careful where i live in case my neighbours do not accept me for who I am and not who I want to be." Is that currently a major concern, or do you think that feeling might be ingrained in your thinking? Tell me if I'm ignorant, but I don't hear from any gay people I know that there are places that they can't live. To a certain extent people are always going to judge you and everyone else and we all have to have a thick enough skin. If my neighbours don't like me for some reason, that it fine because we just have to get on as neighbours and we don't have to be friends.
In today's society there is a unique group of people who would not be comfortable coming out: male professional footballers. The reason for that is partly to avoid abuse, but mostly because players want to be judged on their football and sexuality is irrelevant and even positive coverage would be intolerable. Maybe an average footballer can come out while playing, but he's going to have to be an activist.
I feel like society is ready to move past these performative "inclusion" of a specific group which is inherently exclusive even if it is meant as a positive in giving preferential treatment like having the club provide LGBT football sessions.
I think we are ready for the default attitude that gay people are welcome to play football and we can move on from campaigns highlighting gay people (the Stonewall activists will hate this idea). Of course, there can still be inclusivity campaigns, but it shouldn't be based on race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc. Basically, unless there is an incident of abusive chanting, then no specific action is necessary. I really do think that we risk planting seeds of discrimination when we tell young people that historically this group is the victim class. |
Incredible, yet educating for others how bad your post is here.
"How you live your life is your lifestyle so whether you are straight or gay it is a lifestyle."
Im married to a women, I was born straight, am straight etc, but that's just me living a life.
My lifestyle I lead is what i choose to do on a weekend, or what I wear, what I drink, that's my lifestyle choice. The life I lead was given to me at birth, anything else from that is me making choices which decides what my lifestyle then becomes.
"we all have to have a thick enough skin. If my neighbours don't like me for some reason, that it fine because we just have to get on as neighbours and we don't have to be friends."
You may have good neighbours around you, but what if you turn a corner one day, how likely is it that you would get hounded just for walking with your partner, name calling, abuse thrown, potential physical violance.. Im going to assume none, of course that's open to you as you may have a reason to feel it could happen, but based on your writing I think its safe to assume not, so you can't speak of others about how they need to deal with things that come their way, as it won't compare to what you go through.
What you don't seem to get I think comes from maybe having a friend who is out and absolutely fine, which is brilliant for them, but the fact that there are still thousands who can't, that's the issue. [Post edited 5 Dec 2024 13:19]
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