| 2 children drowned in the Channel today 16:08 - Sep 10 with 3276 views | noggin |
I bet they were fighting aged men in disguise. Stop the boats!, innocent people are perishing, while privileged white people fly flags as a show of hatred against them. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:58 - Sep 10 with 659 views | textbackup |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:53 - Sep 10 by bsw72 |
The fact you ask that question suggests a lack of understanding of what these people have faced and their state of mind. I would suggest all of us on this board are fortunate enough to live in a country where we have not faced war, starvation, abuse, persecution on a daily basis.
I doubt anyone on this board has lived the lives these individuals have, therefore would be in no position to understand the choices to be made and the state of mind of those parents. |
Nicely dodged.
You and I both have no idea of the sufferings. But as a dad I know if I’ve escaped whatever war torn country I’ve come from, that the first bit of safety and I’m staying put to ensure my children no longer face danger.
To me, if they’ve taken the decision to go that one step further, then they need to seriously look at themselves. I’m sure we won’t all agree on that. But there we go. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:01 - Sep 10 with 642 views | Guthrum |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:15 - Sep 10 by textbackup |
Parents must feel awful putting them in unnecessary danger, you’d assume they were safe on dry land in France.
Edit - abuse?! Jesus Chris [Post edited 10 Sep 16:28]
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Do these people have a full understanding of how dangerous a stretch of water the Channel is? They are not locals and the people smugglers won't have told them. After all, they've likely already crossed the Mediterranean or the Aegean ontheir way to France. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:04 - Sep 10 with 602 views | blueasfook |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:55 - Sep 10 by Zx1988 |
OP makes a salient point.
Our government should not be standing idly by, whilst children (or adults, for that matter) drown because there is no safe/legal route into the UK for those who wish to seek asylum.
We need to either do a deal with France to allow for processing on French soil, or open up safe/legal routes so that those who wish to claim asylum here do not need to risk their lives in order to do so. [Post edited 10 Sep 16:58]
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His comment mentioned nothing about the govt's actions.
It was just a slur against "privileged white people" |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:05 - Sep 10 with 613 views | Zx1988 |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:01 - Sep 10 by Guthrum |
Do these people have a full understanding of how dangerous a stretch of water the Channel is? They are not locals and the people smugglers won't have told them. After all, they've likely already crossed the Mediterranean or the Aegean ontheir way to France. |
Good point. The Med and its other connected seas will have been millponds, compared to the Channel.
Not to mention the fact that the smugglers will no doubt be smooth talkers, who will be able to sell them the safety of *their* particular operation, and why they are so different to whichever other outfit has had the most recent fatalities. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:08 - Sep 10 with 611 views | Zx1988 |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:04 - Sep 10 by blueasfook |
His comment mentioned nothing about the govt's actions.
It was just a slur against "privileged white people" |
Not a slur at all.
Those who are going out hanging Union Flags and crosses of St George (including those with 'ENGLAND' emblazoned across them, that the brains trust have still managed to hang upside down) are incredibly privileged compared to those who are making the journey to the UK.
Drop them in Syria with a couple of hundred quid in their pocket, no access to their UK contacts/relatives, and no passport, and tell them to make their way back to the UK, and they wouldn't stand a chance. [Post edited 10 Sep 17:08]
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:08 - Sep 10 with 601 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:22 - Sep 10 by ArnoldMoorhen |
This is why I want to stop the Boats.
My solution would be to bite the bullet and sign a binding Treaty with France to build a legal centre in Pas de Calais to hear the Asylum Claims, under dual French/UK jurisdiction.
Half those granted Asylum are then housed in France, half in the UK. Those who have their claims denied, after due appeals process, would then be re-patriated at joint cost to the two Governments.
"The Jungle" is no good for the Pas de Calais region, and certainly no good for those living there, especially the children.
The "Asylum Hotels" issue is no good for the local communities, or for the Asylum Seekers living in them, or for Starmer's Government.
Throw the money needed at it to get cases heard quickly, and dealt with.
Close "The Jungle".
Stop the Boats.
Save Children's lives. |
That wouldn’t fly with the French I expect. They already have more applications than us in the UK. Expecting them to also take half of those who want to come here is probably unlikely to be agreed to. But I broadly agree that something along those lines of speeding up applications is needed. As we’re slowly replacing some of our returns agreements we need to be able to make decisions faster and drastically reduce the numbers in temporary holding conditions. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:18 - Sep 10 with 558 views | bsw72 |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:58 - Sep 10 by textbackup |
Nicely dodged.
You and I both have no idea of the sufferings. But as a dad I know if I’ve escaped whatever war torn country I’ve come from, that the first bit of safety and I’m staying put to ensure my children no longer face danger.
To me, if they’ve taken the decision to go that one step further, then they need to seriously look at themselves. I’m sure we won’t all agree on that. But there we go. |
I wonder what that "first bit of safety" would be . . .
Not being shot at everyday, but being shot at every other day or every other week?
Not being murdered, only being raped or abused?
Not starving to death, but permanently facing malnutrition? |  | | |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:32 - Sep 10 with 497 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:58 - Sep 10 by textbackup |
Nicely dodged.
You and I both have no idea of the sufferings. But as a dad I know if I’ve escaped whatever war torn country I’ve come from, that the first bit of safety and I’m staying put to ensure my children no longer face danger.
To me, if they’ve taken the decision to go that one step further, then they need to seriously look at themselves. I’m sure we won’t all agree on that. But there we go. |
Most refugees do stop in the first safe country they reach. Over 2/3rds of all refugees globally are living in a country adjacent to where they have been displaced from. For the rest, they’ve a legal right to claim asylum wherever they want. And then just on a practical point it’s obviously daft to expect one country to take all refugees from a particular areas and nobody else to take any. | |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:36 - Sep 10 with 468 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:49 - Sep 10 by Zx1988 |
Notwithstanding the fact that, if we choose to pack up and seek a better/safer/more profitable life elsewhere, the relative power of the British passport means that we're free to pretty much get on a plane and pitch up wherever we fancy. |
I reckon we should only be allowed to go to France. That’ll learn us. | |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:38 - Sep 10 with 451 views | Plums |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:32 - Sep 10 by itfcsuth |
Truly truly awful.
A genuine question, because I'm not educated enough to know the answer, but why do individuals make the crossing, France is a perfectly safe country, far from war torn? |
Partly because, since Brexit it is incredibly difficult for the UK government to return them. The people who Took Back Control actually increased the attraction of the UK to desperate people.
It's an inconvenient truth. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:41 - Sep 10 with 426 views | lowhouseblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:53 - Sep 10 by bsw72 |
The fact you ask that question suggests a lack of understanding of what these people have faced and their state of mind. I would suggest all of us on this board are fortunate enough to live in a country where we have not faced war, starvation, abuse, persecution on a daily basis.
I doubt anyone on this board has lived the lives these individuals have, therefore would be in no position to understand the choices to be made and the state of mind of those parents. |
the things you have listed wouldn't, without specific circumstances applying, be the basis for recognising someone as a refugee. the original convention requires a "well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion". living in a war zone or suffering from poverty etc isn't what makes a refugee. your definition would include about a third of the world's population. recognises legitimate refugees can't be a back door to open borders (as much as some on the thread would support that). |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:43 - Sep 10 with 431 views | eireblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:36 - Sep 10 by Swansea_Blue |
I reckon we should only be allowed to go to France. That’ll learn us. |
Surely your option should be England.
People in Scotland, also England.
People in England can choose Scotland or Wales. |  | | |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:45 - Sep 10 with 415 views | noggin |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:43 - Sep 10 by eireblue |
Surely your option should be England.
People in Scotland, also England.
People in England can choose Scotland or Wales. |
Isn't Scotland just a town in England? | |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:59 - Sep 10 with 361 views | eireblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:41 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
the things you have listed wouldn't, without specific circumstances applying, be the basis for recognising someone as a refugee. the original convention requires a "well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion". living in a war zone or suffering from poverty etc isn't what makes a refugee. your definition would include about a third of the world's population. recognises legitimate refugees can't be a back door to open borders (as much as some on the thread would support that). |
“ The 1951 Refugee Convention defines a refugee as a person who is outside their country of nationality and unable or unwilling to return due to a well-founded fear of persecution based on race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group.”
If there is a sectarian war inside a country, and many current wars are internal or sectarian in nature, e.g. Myanmar, Syria, and South Sudan, then they would be refugees. Russia invading Ukraine is not the norm, at the moment.
If you have a human not currently in their country of birth, and to return them to it would put them in dire poverty, seems somewhat cruel in some circumstances to return them. Clearly there would be circumstances you wouldn’t return a person with very little, to a place they will have even less. | | | |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:02 - Sep 10 with 338 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:43 - Sep 10 by eireblue |
Surely your option should be England.
People in Scotland, also England.
People in England can choose Scotland or Wales. |
Balls, I didn’t think that through. | |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:08 - Sep 10 with 309 views | lowhouseblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:59 - Sep 10 by eireblue |
“ The 1951 Refugee Convention defines a refugee as a person who is outside their country of nationality and unable or unwilling to return due to a well-founded fear of persecution based on race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group.”
If there is a sectarian war inside a country, and many current wars are internal or sectarian in nature, e.g. Myanmar, Syria, and South Sudan, then they would be refugees. Russia invading Ukraine is not the norm, at the moment.
If you have a human not currently in their country of birth, and to return them to it would put them in dire poverty, seems somewhat cruel in some circumstances to return them. Clearly there would be circumstances you wouldn’t return a person with very little, to a place they will have even less. |
"to return them to it would put them in dire poverty, seems somewhat cruel in some circumstances to return them" - that is changing and hugely expanding the concept of refugee. if you consider it to be cruel for anyone who leaves a poor country to return home, and for them then to have all the rights of refugees, you are approaching open borders - the only restrictions then is someone's ability to escape their home country. it's not what the refugee convention intended. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:08 - Sep 10 with 311 views | Guthrum |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 17:05 - Sep 10 by Zx1988 |
Good point. The Med and its other connected seas will have been millponds, compared to the Channel.
Not to mention the fact that the smugglers will no doubt be smooth talkers, who will be able to sell them the safety of *their* particular operation, and why they are so different to whichever other outfit has had the most recent fatalities. |
The Med has a reputation for sudden, terrible storms, but it doesn't have the tidal flows and currents of the Channel, nor the density of large vessel traffic. Hypothermia and exposure are greater dangers, too, especially if you're unfortunate enough to end up in the water. | |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:11 - Sep 10 with 292 views | lazyblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:23 - Sep 10 by Zx1988 |
Precisely.
If you see attempting to cross the channel in a dinghy, despite all the risks that it entails, as the least worst course of action, things must be pretty dire.
The 2019 BBC drama 'Years and Years' is a very worthwhile watch for a slightly different perspective on this. |
Unfortunately 95% are male and don’t hold the same morals or values we do, France is safe and so much bigger than our small island. | | | |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:11 - Sep 10 with 293 views | Radlett_blue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:22 - Sep 10 by ArnoldMoorhen |
This is why I want to stop the Boats.
My solution would be to bite the bullet and sign a binding Treaty with France to build a legal centre in Pas de Calais to hear the Asylum Claims, under dual French/UK jurisdiction.
Half those granted Asylum are then housed in France, half in the UK. Those who have their claims denied, after due appeals process, would then be re-patriated at joint cost to the two Governments.
"The Jungle" is no good for the Pas de Calais region, and certainly no good for those living there, especially the children.
The "Asylum Hotels" issue is no good for the local communities, or for the Asylum Seekers living in them, or for Starmer's Government.
Throw the money needed at it to get cases heard quickly, and dealt with.
Close "The Jungle".
Stop the Boats.
Save Children's lives. |
Not going to happen. France has a much larger asylum issue than the UK & the government is happy for as many of them as possible to try to make their way across the Channel, whatever they might say in public. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:12 - Sep 10 with 290 views | jayessess |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:32 - Sep 10 by itfcsuth |
Truly truly awful.
A genuine question, because I'm not educated enough to know the answer, but why do individuals make the crossing, France is a perfectly safe country, far from war torn? |
Usually it's a question of (a) contacts, especially family/kinship networks (b) language skills, cultural knowledge
There's a bit of a tendency to imagine that as soon as you get to a place where you aren't in immediate danger of death that's it, that's you safe, end of problem.
But in reality if any of us were dumped with our family in a country with just the possessions we could carry, the first thing you'd have to address is how to survive (and even build a modestly prosperous life) and likely the first thing you'd think is 'how can I get to people I know and trust, who are more established and can help me survive', followed shortly by 'where is a place I might be able to find work and make money', which probably means a place where you speak the language. |  |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:16 - Sep 10 with 252 views | lowhouseblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 16:22 - Sep 10 by ArnoldMoorhen |
This is why I want to stop the Boats.
My solution would be to bite the bullet and sign a binding Treaty with France to build a legal centre in Pas de Calais to hear the Asylum Claims, under dual French/UK jurisdiction.
Half those granted Asylum are then housed in France, half in the UK. Those who have their claims denied, after due appeals process, would then be re-patriated at joint cost to the two Governments.
"The Jungle" is no good for the Pas de Calais region, and certainly no good for those living there, especially the children.
The "Asylum Hotels" issue is no good for the local communities, or for the Asylum Seekers living in them, or for Starmer's Government.
Throw the money needed at it to get cases heard quickly, and dealt with.
Close "The Jungle".
Stop the Boats.
Save Children's lives. |
"Those who have their claims denied, after due appeals process, would then be re-patriated at joint cost to the two Governments."
would you suspend the echr in order to repatriate them? if not your plan doesn't work. if they can appeal against deportation, or their nationality isn't determined, and / or their home nation refuses to have them back, then repatriation ceases to be credible. a problem the uk and the rest of europe are already struggling with. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:22 - Sep 10 with 231 views | eireblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:08 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
"to return them to it would put them in dire poverty, seems somewhat cruel in some circumstances to return them" - that is changing and hugely expanding the concept of refugee. if you consider it to be cruel for anyone who leaves a poor country to return home, and for them then to have all the rights of refugees, you are approaching open borders - the only restrictions then is someone's ability to escape their home country. it's not what the refugee convention intended. |
Not really.
We take in people from the Ukraine, many will go back if things are safe.
If there is mass poverty and starvation in a country, what are you going to do?
Say, sorry, rules is rules, you are not a refugee, back to that country that has just had floods and has not much food, but yeah, next time stay put, and don’t wonder over here.
Yes that is an extreme. But taking a black and white definition is extreme.
In some circumstances, yes, FFS, just help other humans,
Every one banging on about the Refugee convention not being fit for the modern world, cause it was drawn up after the WW2, are bang on.
It should be extend to accept natural disasters and the changes in climate that will have effects on fellow humans, that other humans should help out with.
And if you have F’ed up regimes that totally screw up an economy and populations suffer, yep, help the ones that can get out. | | | |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:28 - Sep 10 with 198 views | Radlett_blue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:12 - Sep 10 by jayessess |
Usually it's a question of (a) contacts, especially family/kinship networks (b) language skills, cultural knowledge
There's a bit of a tendency to imagine that as soon as you get to a place where you aren't in immediate danger of death that's it, that's you safe, end of problem.
But in reality if any of us were dumped with our family in a country with just the possessions we could carry, the first thing you'd have to address is how to survive (and even build a modestly prosperous life) and likely the first thing you'd think is 'how can I get to people I know and trust, who are more established and can help me survive', followed shortly by 'where is a place I might be able to find work and make money', which probably means a place where you speak the language. |
Sorry, but the majority of asylum seekers aren't in immediate danger of death. They have taken a decision to leave their own country for another one where the chance of a decent life is much higher. They choose the UK over nearer European countries for a variety of reasons e.g. they speak some English, they probably have contacts over here who can help them find work etc. | |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:28 - Sep 10 with 189 views | lowhouseblue |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:22 - Sep 10 by eireblue |
Not really.
We take in people from the Ukraine, many will go back if things are safe.
If there is mass poverty and starvation in a country, what are you going to do?
Say, sorry, rules is rules, you are not a refugee, back to that country that has just had floods and has not much food, but yeah, next time stay put, and don’t wonder over here.
Yes that is an extreme. But taking a black and white definition is extreme.
In some circumstances, yes, FFS, just help other humans,
Every one banging on about the Refugee convention not being fit for the modern world, cause it was drawn up after the WW2, are bang on.
It should be extend to accept natural disasters and the changes in climate that will have effects on fellow humans, that other humans should help out with.
And if you have F’ed up regimes that totally screw up an economy and populations suffer, yep, help the ones that can get out. |
that would massively expand the concept of refugee and hugely increase the incentive to travel and make dangerous journeys. if you are to open borders to everyone from countries experiencing poverty that's a huge proportion of the world population. it's a complicated way of saying that you favour open borders and you don't care who comes. that's not where the vast majority of uk voters stand. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:37 - Sep 10 with 149 views | Zx1988 |
| 2 children drowned in the Channel today on 18:11 - Sep 10 by lazyblue |
Unfortunately 95% are male and don’t hold the same morals or values we do, France is safe and so much bigger than our small island. |
I take it you're playing the game of 'how many debunked racist tropes can we fit in one post'? | |
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