| Venezuela under attack (n/t) 06:40 - Jan 3 with 18119 views | Perublue |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 13:57 - Jan 4 with 1003 views | NthQldITFC |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 13:52 - Jan 4 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Still not really sure if you are talking about global stability and macro level policy stuff relating to the US, or the daily life of the Venezuelans under Maduru (which was the subject matter). |
Well it's perfectly clear that 'increasingly dangerous' was a descriptor for the 'foreign colonial invader' as the former was placed just before the latter in the sentence. That's how the English language works, but you write more than well enough to understand that, so I can only think you are trying to muddy the water. |  |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:00 - Jan 4 with 990 views | J2BLUE |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 13:45 - Jan 4 by StokieBlue |
That's a huge step though.
Taking it by force is an attack on another NATO member and an EU member state. Even the EU couldn't turn a blind eye to that.
SB |
What could they do about it? Sanctions which would be tit for tat and damage the entire world? Maybe Trump will just bully his way to a nice big base there. |  |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:01 - Jan 4 with 983 views | DJR |
It strikes me that a lot which goes on with the Trump administration is driven by people like Vance and Rubio.
Trump seems to have the personality, bravado and chutzpah to get away with giving effect to it but I wonder if that would be the case if Vance or Rubio were to succeed him. [Post edited 4 Jan 16:23]
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:01 - Jan 4 with 976 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:00 - Jan 4 by J2BLUE |
What could they do about it? Sanctions which would be tit for tat and damage the entire world? Maybe Trump will just bully his way to a nice big base there. |
They already have a base there. It's the resources he would want.
They would have to respond with trade sanctions, they would have no choice. It's literally an attack on another NATO member.
It won't happen though.
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:03 - Jan 4 with 951 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 13:46 - Jan 4 by Pinewoodblue |
Two wrongs don’t make a right and US action is wrong on so many counts. Your comments about Maduro are valid but stop defending the indefensible. |
People still falsely claiming that folks are denying that many Venezuelans are happy to see the end of Maduro, in order to deflect from the real issues. |  |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:10 - Jan 4 with 894 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 13:57 - Jan 4 by NthQldITFC |
Well it's perfectly clear that 'increasingly dangerous' was a descriptor for the 'foreign colonial invader' as the former was placed just before the latter in the sentence. That's how the English language works, but you write more than well enough to understand that, so I can only think you are trying to muddy the water. |
I struggle to see how it’s going to be increasingly dangerous now that Maduru has been removed, when you assess their current living conditions and standard of life. Time will tell.
If like many others you’re talking about the rights and wrongs American interventionism, regime change and the motives behind it, then that’s a separate conversation and of course not particularly unique to current admin either. |  |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:13 - Jan 4 with 889 views | J2BLUE |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:01 - Jan 4 by StokieBlue |
They already have a base there. It's the resources he would want.
They would have to respond with trade sanctions, they would have no choice. It's literally an attack on another NATO member.
It won't happen though.
SB |
Yes, I meant a bigger base which expands and expands. Hopefully you are right. He just seems more unhinged by the day. I don't think I have ever heard a politician of an ally speak the way he is speaking about American dominance etc. Obviously it has always been there but the disregard for allies and openly admitting they've gone in for oil is just new. Or if it isn't, I haven't been paying attention. | |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:13 - Jan 4 with 893 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:00 - Jan 4 by J2BLUE |
What could they do about it? Sanctions which would be tit for tat and damage the entire world? Maybe Trump will just bully his way to a nice big base there. |
Would have to call his bluff. Nato would have to disband and be re-formed without the US. Personally, I would say that we would at least have to make a show of sending forces there in the event that US seemed to be building up there. | |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:14 - Jan 4 with 891 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:01 - Jan 4 by StokieBlue |
They already have a base there. It's the resources he would want.
They would have to respond with trade sanctions, they would have no choice. It's literally an attack on another NATO member.
It won't happen though.
SB |
Difficult to be certain as Trump’s thought process is hard to fathom.
Five years ago Greenland, on environmental grounds, decreed that no further licences would be issued m for the waters of Greenland.
In July this year the US Geographical Society issued a paper that included the following “ Using a geology-based assessment methodology, the U.S. Geological Survey estimated undiscovered, technically recoverable mean conventional resources of 7.8 billion barrels of oil and 91.9 trillion cubic feet of gas in the West Greenland-East Canada Province.”
Clearly Trump has not lost interest in Greenland. |  |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:15 - Jan 4 with 887 views | NthQldITFC |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:10 - Jan 4 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I struggle to see how it’s going to be increasingly dangerous now that Maduru has been removed, when you assess their current living conditions and standard of life. Time will tell.
If like many others you’re talking about the rights and wrongs American interventionism, regime change and the motives behind it, then that’s a separate conversation and of course not particularly unique to current admin either. |
Strewth! Are you not reading or just duplicitously deflecting? Either way, I'm bored with it.
Out. | |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:28 - Jan 4 with 819 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 14:15 - Jan 4 by NthQldITFC |
Strewth! Are you not reading or just duplicitously deflecting? Either way, I'm bored with it.
Out. |
Deflecting? I was literally asking you. Would have really been very easy to answer after your expat to people living their comment rather than get tied up in knots. Enjoy the day! | |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:10 - Jan 4 with 748 views | DJR |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 11:51 - Jan 4 by leitrimblue |
My partner is from Caracas. Surprisingly we have spoke to family and friends etc |
A journalist in Caracas just interviewed on the World Service said that no one there was on the streets celebrating.
Indeed, he said the streets are rather deserted. | | | |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:23 - Jan 4 with 713 views | J2BLUE |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:10 - Jan 4 by DJR |
A journalist in Caracas just interviewed on the World Service said that no one there was on the streets celebrating.
Indeed, he said the streets are rather deserted. |
Getting bombed and not entirely sure who is in charge will be a big part of that. | |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:26 - Jan 4 with 703 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:23 - Jan 4 by J2BLUE |
Getting bombed and not entirely sure who is in charge will be a big part of that. |
And the fact that Maduro’s allies still have de facto control, the regime security forces have a long history of violence.
The figurehead is gone but the regime could still crush any internal dissent as they have in the past.
“This power structure makes dismantling Venezuela's current government more complex than removing Maduro, according to interviews with current and former U.S. officials, Venezuelan and U.S. military analysts and security consultants to Venezuela's opposition.
"You can remove as many pieces of the Venezuelan government as you like, but it would have to be multiple actors at different levels to move the needle," said a former U.S. official involved in criminal investigations in Venezuela.” [Post edited 4 Jan 15:28]
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:36 - Jan 4 with 679 views | DJR |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:26 - Jan 4 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
And the fact that Maduro’s allies still have de facto control, the regime security forces have a long history of violence.
The figurehead is gone but the regime could still crush any internal dissent as they have in the past.
“This power structure makes dismantling Venezuela's current government more complex than removing Maduro, according to interviews with current and former U.S. officials, Venezuelan and U.S. military analysts and security consultants to Venezuela's opposition.
"You can remove as many pieces of the Venezuelan government as you like, but it would have to be multiple actors at different levels to move the needle," said a former U.S. official involved in criminal investigations in Venezuela.” [Post edited 4 Jan 15:28]
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And it's not really clear if Trump envisages any actual change, apart from getting a Maduro-less government to cow-tow to whatever the US wants.
Certainly, if there are to be no US troops on the ground, and no evidence yet of the Venezuelan armed forces uprising, it is difficult to envisage that Trump's "running" of the country amounts to much more than a can of beans.
And he has form, when it comes to Gaza, of not really having in place a properly thought out plan. [Post edited 4 Jan 15:37]
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| Fair point of pontification and Venezuelan POV…. BUT on 15:41 - Jan 4 with 671 views | unstableblue |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 09:40 - Jan 4 by itfcjoe |
I’m in Madeira and at least a dozen cars driving round with Venezuelan flags with Líbre Venezuela on them so guess these people have more skin in the game than those pontificating here |
This is quite a momentous moment in recent history, so it’s right that people debate even pontificate - even on a football forum. Trump has used his deeply damaged and corrupt DOJ (have a listen to some of their DOJ whistleblowers emerging, it’s staggering) to enact regime change on a ridiculous Narco Terrorism charge, as an act of war, with no congress oversight, or communication with allies, this is purely an oil/gas and regional control play. Trump never cares about foreign citizens. Haven’t we learnt that by now?
The arguments being made about Xi and Putin are valid, the West are supposed to uphold the international order that’s why Iraq was so bad.
But to your main point that the people of Venezuela know more than people here. Of course they do, and their joy is understandable given Maduro’s regime, it’s been appalling, but you also need to understand he is a result of previous US meddling. So yes it’s absolutely right to celebrate his departure.
But rather than TWTDers pontificating let’s hear from an expert. Last night they had a leading expert on Oil&Gas, Venezuelan politics and natural resources and head of an international trade federation. An American. It was clear he was a subject matter expert.
In short it is Maduro regime that is the issue, not just Maduro, and there are layers of militia.
The oil price is low. It was US government sanctions that made US companies leave, hence the infrastructure has decayed. Given the oil price, over supply over the next 5 years, and easier projects in the pipeline, and CRUCIALLY oil and gas companies never wanting to invest without country security. Albeit the oil type is attractive. Well it’s really questionable that any real uplift in oil and gas revenues is on the cards for years and years, there will some positive immediate gains from moving limited heavy oil to US refineries rather than Chinese shadow fleets.
Another expert this morning stated that they currently have 50k troop potential, but they’ll need 150-200k. And the lesson from Iraq is you need to spend billions to rebuild the Government and infrastructure. And other red flags.
In short it’s very questionable what is going to now happen. With linited appetite in the US public for this expense, [Post edited 4 Jan 16:19]
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:44 - Jan 4 with 650 views | Mercian |
I am not so sure.
This was posted by the wife of a prominent Trump bum licker.
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:50 - Jan 4 with 611 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:36 - Jan 4 by DJR |
And it's not really clear if Trump envisages any actual change, apart from getting a Maduro-less government to cow-tow to whatever the US wants.
Certainly, if there are to be no US troops on the ground, and no evidence yet of the Venezuelan armed forces uprising, it is difficult to envisage that Trump's "running" of the country amounts to much more than a can of beans.
And he has form, when it comes to Gaza, of not really having in place a properly thought out plan. [Post edited 4 Jan 15:37]
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Let’s hope it goes better than when Obama done it in Libya in 2011 and the emergence of IS. | |
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:54 - Jan 4 with 605 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:44 - Jan 4 by Mercian |
I am not so sure.
This was posted by the wife of a prominent Trump bum licker.
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A lot of the theatre on twitter. Appeals to many.
Even as an autonomous run place, it’s owned by Denmark, I don’t really see them invading the EU. | |
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| Fair point of pontification and Venezuelan POV…. BUT on 15:56 - Jan 4 with 603 views | DJR |
| Fair point of pontification and Venezuelan POV…. BUT on 15:41 - Jan 4 by unstableblue |
This is quite a momentous moment in recent history, so it’s right that people debate even pontificate - even on a football forum. Trump has used his deeply damaged and corrupt DOJ (have a listen to some of their DOJ whistleblowers emerging, it’s staggering) to enact regime change on a ridiculous Narco Terrorism charge, as an act of war, with no congress oversight, or communication with allies, this is purely an oil/gas and regional control play. Trump never cares about foreign citizens. Haven’t we learnt that by now?
The arguments being made about Xi and Putin are valid, the West are supposed to uphold the international order that’s why Iraq was so bad.
But to your main point that the people of Venezuela know more than people here. Of course they do, and their joy is understandable given Maduro’s regime, it’s been appalling, but you also need to understand he is a result of previous US meddling. So yes it’s absolutely right to celebrate his departure.
But rather than TWTDers pontificating let’s hear from an expert. Last night they had a leading expert on Oil&Gas, Venezuelan politics and natural resources and head of an international trade federation. An American. It was clear he was a subject matter expert.
In short it is Maduro regime that is the issue, not just Maduro, and there are layers of militia.
The oil price is low. It was US government sanctions that made US companies leave, hence the infrastructure has decayed. Given the oil price, over supply over the next 5 years, and easier projects in the pipeline, and CRUCIALLY oil and gas companies never wanting to invest without country security. Albeit the oil type is attractive. Well it’s really questionable that any real uplift in oil and gas revenues is on the cards for years and years, there will some positive immediate gains from moving limited heavy oil to US refineries rather than Chinese shadow fleets.
Another expert this morning stated that they currently have 50k troop potential, but they’ll need 150-200k. And the lesson from Iraq is you need to spend billions to rebuild the Government and infrastructure. And other red flags.
In short it’s very questionable what is going to now happen. With linited appetite in the US public for this expense, [Post edited 4 Jan 16:19]
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Here is a Guardian article on the oil and gas angle.
https://www.theguardian.com/bu | | | |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 16:11 - Jan 4 with 562 views | iamatractorboy |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:54 - Jan 4 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
A lot of the theatre on twitter. Appeals to many.
Even as an autonomous run place, it’s owned by Denmark, I don’t really see them invading the EU. |
Trump does have a little bit of form for doing some ridiculous things. Who would actually stop him? | | | |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 16:38 - Jan 4 with 513 views | DJR |
| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 15:44 - Jan 4 by Mercian |
I am not so sure.
This was posted by the wife of a prominent Trump bum licker.
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Miller is Deputy Chief of Policy and Homeland Security Adviser in the Trump administration.
I think a straightforward invasion is not on the cards but I do sense some discontent in Greenland with regard its relations with Denmark, and I wonder if this is something the US will try to operate on.
Indeed, if the Trump administration offered to improve the lot of Greenlanders, and even offered, say, £100,000 per person, I suppose it is possible he could win them over. And as a colony, would the Greenland people not have the right to choose the destiny they want, however foolish they might be?
The other thing with the administration is that they are getting bolder and bolder, and it is almost a case of them egging each other on to do more extreme things.
Of course, this might be a bridge too far at present, but were there to be a Vance presidency, is it really that far-fetched, given Vance appears to care nothing for Europe or NATO. [Post edited 4 Jan 16:42]
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| Venezuela under attack (n/t) on 16:41 - Jan 4 with 502 views | GlasgowBlue |
Well that didn't take long.
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| Fair point of pontification and Venezuelan POV…. BUT on 16:56 - Jan 4 with 459 views | unstableblue |
Yes - confirms the point that the current small production which used to go to a Chinese shadow fleet, which is currently held because of the sea barricade in place, can be moved to US refineries. So a quick win. But perhaps more a win for US companies than Venezuelan people. But can be a positive.
I imagine this is the concession from US companies that has been made.
Coming back to my main point; listen to Rubio today. What on earth is the plan for regime change? | |
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| Fair point of pontification and Venezuelan POV…. BUT on 17:00 - Jan 4 with 451 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Fair point of pontification and Venezuelan POV…. BUT on 16:56 - Jan 4 by unstableblue |
Yes - confirms the point that the current small production which used to go to a Chinese shadow fleet, which is currently held because of the sea barricade in place, can be moved to US refineries. So a quick win. But perhaps more a win for US companies than Venezuelan people. But can be a positive.
I imagine this is the concession from US companies that has been made.
Coming back to my main point; listen to Rubio today. What on earth is the plan for regime change? |
Im not sure there is one. It will be the same regime with a different figurehead. No elections. And the figurehead getting his/her arm twisted to do US bidding under threat of further agression. | |
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