| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela 18:46 - Jan 7 with 3216 views | Guthrum |
Worth bearing in mind that was pretty similar to how we in the UK behaved when we were a great imperial power. Gunboat Diplomacy, it was called in the days of Palmerston. Worth reading up on the Anglo-Zanzibar War ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zanzibar_War ).
That is the kind of world we're living in now. Only this time we aren't one of the Great Powers. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:03 - Jan 7 with 2297 views | Meadowlark |
However, I think that people are better informed these days, and it's not the people of the USA, the people of Russia or the people of China that specifically want their countries to act in this way. It's more that they have megalomaniac leaders. |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:07 - Jan 7 with 2251 views | Guthrum |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:03 - Jan 7 by Meadowlark |
However, I think that people are better informed these days, and it's not the people of the USA, the people of Russia or the people of China that specifically want their countries to act in this way. It's more that they have megalomaniac leaders. |
Indeed. Plus some pretty unpleasant, throw-back ideologues advising them. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:10 - Jan 7 with 2220 views | LeoMuff |
That was 130 years ago, was hoping us and the USA had moved on |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:10 - Jan 7 with 2218 views | JakeITFC |
Yeah I was thinking about this the other day - they are definitely thinking what’s the point of being one of the worlds great powers if you can’t flex your muscles?
Trump and his cronies probably have a point that NATO is nothing without them and that they were basically funding the whole thing for not much benefit. Much more beneficial for them individually to have people kept on their toes a bit. |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:14 - Jan 7 with 2189 views | tonybied |
That time when we were the baddies? |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:38 - Jan 7 with 2047 views | Ryorry |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:10 - Jan 7 by LeoMuff |
That was 130 years ago, was hoping us and the USA had moved on |
More wasn’t it? Ie 17th to 19thCs.
Other countries in the western world are more enlightened now.
Dangerous lunatic is running the asylum that’s the USA. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:45 - Jan 7 with 2010 views | DJR |
I couldn't help but laugh when I came across the origin of the term "Trump derangement syndrome".
The origin of the term is traced to Charles Krauthammer, a conservative political columnist, commentator, and psychiatrist, who coined the phrase Bush derangement syndrome in 2003 during the presidency of George W. Bush. That "syndrome" was defined by Krauthammer as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency—nay—the very existence of George W. Bush". |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:48 - Jan 7 with 1986 views | GlasgowBlue |
And we've been here more recently when George Bush took out Manuel Noriega from Panama. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:55 - Jan 7 with 1921 views | lowhouseblue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:48 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
And we've been here more recently when George Bush took out Manuel Noriega from Panama. |
and in terms of foreign intervention i've not seen it mentioned that the troops killed during the american action were cuban. i'm not sure it's right to present trump's action as new or unprecedented or historically unusual. which is still not to defend it in any way. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:08 - Jan 7 with 1857 views | Guthrum |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:55 - Jan 7 by lowhouseblue |
and in terms of foreign intervention i've not seen it mentioned that the troops killed during the american action were cuban. i'm not sure it's right to present trump's action as new or unprecedented or historically unusual. which is still not to defend it in any way. |
Indeed. As someone put it to me the other day, this is historically the norm for US policy. It's the last half century or so which has been unusual. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:19 - Jan 7 with 1776 views | bsw72 |
Not really that similar, while true that the Anglo-Zanzibar War was very much 19th-century imperial “gunboat diplomacy”, it was carried out in a world where empire and enforced succession were the accepted norm. There was no international legal framework constraining Britain’s actions, and the objective was narrow, immediate and very much colonial in nature.
What we’re seeing now is fundamentally different. Modern interventions take place in a post 1945 world, supposedly built to prevent that behaviour, with sovereignty, international law and multilateral institutions as core pillars designed to protect others. When a power such as the USA acts unilaterally today, it should not be accepted that it is “how the world works” in the Palmerstonian sense, it’s a breach of the rules that the world, including the USA, agreed to after two catastrophic wars in 30 years.
So the issue isn’t that we’ve returned to a familiar imperial order and Britain has slipped down the pecking order. It’s that actions which were once routine for empires are now destabilising precisely because they undermine the system designed to stop great powers behaving that way at all.
It’s also a continuation/escalation of a modern U.S. pattern of leader-removal interventions both direct and indirect, whose legitimacy has always been contested and whose long-term consequences tend to outlast the short-term success. Vietnam, Panama, Haiti, Libya, Chile, Iraq etc the list goes on . . . |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:20 - Jan 7 with 1761 views | DJR |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:08 - Jan 7 by Guthrum |
Indeed. As someone put it to me the other day, this is historically the norm for US policy. It's the last half century or so which has been unusual. |
Trump is brazen about it, but there is a long history of US involvement in Latin America, much of it covert.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-strikes-venezeula-latin-america-military-interve | | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:31 - Jan 7 with 1687 views | WeWereZombies |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:19 - Jan 7 by bsw72 |
Not really that similar, while true that the Anglo-Zanzibar War was very much 19th-century imperial “gunboat diplomacy”, it was carried out in a world where empire and enforced succession were the accepted norm. There was no international legal framework constraining Britain’s actions, and the objective was narrow, immediate and very much colonial in nature.
What we’re seeing now is fundamentally different. Modern interventions take place in a post 1945 world, supposedly built to prevent that behaviour, with sovereignty, international law and multilateral institutions as core pillars designed to protect others. When a power such as the USA acts unilaterally today, it should not be accepted that it is “how the world works” in the Palmerstonian sense, it’s a breach of the rules that the world, including the USA, agreed to after two catastrophic wars in 30 years.
So the issue isn’t that we’ve returned to a familiar imperial order and Britain has slipped down the pecking order. It’s that actions which were once routine for empires are now destabilising precisely because they undermine the system designed to stop great powers behaving that way at all.
It’s also a continuation/escalation of a modern U.S. pattern of leader-removal interventions both direct and indirect, whose legitimacy has always been contested and whose long-term consequences tend to outlast the short-term success. Vietnam, Panama, Haiti, Libya, Chile, Iraq etc the list goes on . . . |
Finally a sensible, balanced post after days of drivel, claptrap and supine resignation. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:34 - Jan 7 with 1662 views | Clapham_Junction |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:03 - Jan 7 by Meadowlark |
However, I think that people are better informed these days, and it's not the people of the USA, the people of Russia or the people of China that specifically want their countries to act in this way. It's more that they have megalomaniac leaders. |
I think you'd be surprised about Chinese views about Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, East Turkestan etc. The population have been thoroughly brainwashed on the party line.
My partner and close friend both lived in Scotland and were pro-Scottish independence but would foam at the mouth if you suggested Taiwan wasn't part of China or Tibet should be an independent country. |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:40 - Jan 7 with 1638 views | blueislander |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:48 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
And we've been here more recently when George Bush took out Manuel Noriega from Panama. |
Cuba would be a doddle for Trump to take,. Venezuela and Cuba were (are) mutually reliant on each other. |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:41 - Jan 7 with 1626 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:19 - Jan 7 by bsw72 |
Not really that similar, while true that the Anglo-Zanzibar War was very much 19th-century imperial “gunboat diplomacy”, it was carried out in a world where empire and enforced succession were the accepted norm. There was no international legal framework constraining Britain’s actions, and the objective was narrow, immediate and very much colonial in nature.
What we’re seeing now is fundamentally different. Modern interventions take place in a post 1945 world, supposedly built to prevent that behaviour, with sovereignty, international law and multilateral institutions as core pillars designed to protect others. When a power such as the USA acts unilaterally today, it should not be accepted that it is “how the world works” in the Palmerstonian sense, it’s a breach of the rules that the world, including the USA, agreed to after two catastrophic wars in 30 years.
So the issue isn’t that we’ve returned to a familiar imperial order and Britain has slipped down the pecking order. It’s that actions which were once routine for empires are now destabilising precisely because they undermine the system designed to stop great powers behaving that way at all.
It’s also a continuation/escalation of a modern U.S. pattern of leader-removal interventions both direct and indirect, whose legitimacy has always been contested and whose long-term consequences tend to outlast the short-term success. Vietnam, Panama, Haiti, Libya, Chile, Iraq etc the list goes on . . . |
Yep. And countries who can't defend themselves against America in the regular way will use terrorism instead, and ordinary Americans are the ones who will suffer. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:02 - Jan 7 with 1527 views | GlasgowBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:40 - Jan 7 by blueislander |
Cuba would be a doddle for Trump to take,. Venezuela and Cuba were (are) mutually reliant on each other. |
My guess is his next strikes will be against Mexican drugs cartels. Not against the Mexican government but the gangsters. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:23 - Jan 7 with 1438 views | iamatractorboy |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:02 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
My guess is his next strikes will be against Mexican drugs cartels. Not against the Mexican government but the gangsters. |
He's talked about that before - might even have said it during his first term? | | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:57 - Jan 7 with 1327 views | Charlie_pl_baxter |
Worth bearing in mind we actually went to war with China to protect our drug (opium) dealers ability to trade in China.
As others have said you'd hope the world has progressed since the 19th century though. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:03 - Jan 7 with 1309 views | StokieBlue |
Come on Guthers, you're better than this false equivalence.
If we lived in 1850 you might have a point, the world has moved on. It's absolutely wrong to try and excuse Trump's behaviour using an aged historical context.
Deep down you must know that.
SB |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:07 - Jan 7 with 1282 views | reusersfreekicks |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:03 - Jan 7 by Meadowlark |
However, I think that people are better informed these days, and it's not the people of the USA, the people of Russia or the people of China that specifically want their countries to act in this way. It's more that they have megalomaniac leaders. |
Well said |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:08 - Jan 7 with 1271 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Rule Britannia. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:08 - Jan 7 with 1254 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:03 - Jan 7 by Meadowlark |
However, I think that people are better informed these days, and it's not the people of the USA, the people of Russia or the people of China that specifically want their countries to act in this way. It's more that they have megalomaniac leaders. |
Which is different how? | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:14 - Jan 7 with 1223 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:02 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
My guess is his next strikes will be against Mexican drugs cartels. Not against the Mexican government but the gangsters. |
You actually think he gives a stuff about drugs? | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:21 - Jan 7 with 1181 views | WicklowBlue |
Guthers, with all due respect while I wasnt alive in the 1890's...
I can be confident in saying that people were getting super angry and p!ssed off back then.
While I kinda get your point, not sure now is the time for false equivalences that distract from... well you know.  |  | | |
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