| This Saints spying thing 11:51 - May 12 with 12000 views | bluefunk |
Looks like it’s a real headache for the EFL and the disciplinary commitee, Southampton have asked for more time, which is exactly what the authorities don’t have.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/fo
It won’t be the first time they’ve done this, maybe explains their successful rise up the table. Middlesbrough apparently want sporting sanctions rather than a fine, (but then they would wouldn’t they). |  | | |  |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:10 - May 13 with 1683 views | Chris_ITFC |
All getting very Partridge.
I’d call that “watching” rather than “spying”, if he’s literally just stood behind a tree! 
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| This Saints spying thing on 11:24 - May 13 with 1605 views | urbanpenguin |
| This Saints spying thing on 20:15 - May 12 by bluefunk |
The Funk, the whole Funk, nothing but the Funk…….
By the time of the Payback album ( the cover is my picture) Maceo Parker and Fred Wesley among others were back in the fold |
Saw him live at v97 in Chelmsford and it was great fun. I was very stoned, but it seemed like there were so many people on stage with him it went all the way back from Essex to Detroit. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:24 - May 13 with 1605 views | tractorboy1978 |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:25 - May 13 by _CliveBaker_ |
I'm not sure you can quantify how much of an advantage, but there certainly is one. They will have known Hackney was still out for example, probably seen the starting XI and shape, the threats they were working on. It is an advantage hence they wanted to break a rule to do it.
Its different but Swindon were kicked out of the EFL trophy this year and their result against Luton overturned due to fielding a player who was serving a ban, and another off the bench who wasn't named on the team sheet due to an admin error. Normally in such cases it would've been a fine, but my point is you can't quantify how much of an impact those selections had vs. alternatives but the conclusion was to overturn the result.
If we were in Boro's shoes I'd be expecting the result to be overturned tbh, I think its really poor form from Southampton and they can't have any complaints if they're guilty of this and that's the conclusion. |
If proven guilty then I cannot see how anything but an overturned result and Boro playing Hull in the final can be the conclusion. If proven of spying on other clubs, no doubt Wrexham would come out of the woodwork and say they should have been in the play offs but that has passed now and nothing the EFL can do really. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:35 - May 13 with 1549 views | MJallday |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:24 - May 13 by tractorboy1978 |
If proven guilty then I cannot see how anything but an overturned result and Boro playing Hull in the final can be the conclusion. If proven of spying on other clubs, no doubt Wrexham would come out of the woodwork and say they should have been in the play offs but that has passed now and nothing the EFL can do really. |
"If proven guilty then I cannot see how anything but an overturned result and Boro playing Hull in the final can be the conclusion."
thats a flawed conclusion. Just because they were found guilty of having a tactical advantage, you cannot suddenly equate that into overturning a result. it would set a very large legal precident for just about every sport in the world. any lawyer worth their salt would argue in defence that just because youve seen a team help setup several days before the event for a limited time AND it was discovered prior to the event AND therefore gave time for the aggrevied team team to adjust - that the spying had minimal impact and therefore the result yesterday would stand as it did not have a DIRECT impact. it could be argued both teams could apply same method of tactical learning simply by watching videos of previous games - so what does turning up in person prove?
personally id be a bit embarrased about this whole situation if i was in charge of boro's security.
as you said, any result overturning would then get wrexham and a few others interested. itll never happen because of the fallout.
TLDR - i believe southampton will be found guilty - told not to do it again, given a fine of a few hundred k , possibly a minor points deduction - but they will be in the PO final and they could well win it.
at least everyone hates them now, not us. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 11:44 - May 13 with 1506 views | victorysquad |
I think the EFL have to act. They have no choice but to kick Southampton out the play-offs. They should have done it before last nights game. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 11:49 - May 13 with 1470 views | tractorboy1978 |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:35 - May 13 by MJallday |
"If proven guilty then I cannot see how anything but an overturned result and Boro playing Hull in the final can be the conclusion."
thats a flawed conclusion. Just because they were found guilty of having a tactical advantage, you cannot suddenly equate that into overturning a result. it would set a very large legal precident for just about every sport in the world. any lawyer worth their salt would argue in defence that just because youve seen a team help setup several days before the event for a limited time AND it was discovered prior to the event AND therefore gave time for the aggrevied team team to adjust - that the spying had minimal impact and therefore the result yesterday would stand as it did not have a DIRECT impact. it could be argued both teams could apply same method of tactical learning simply by watching videos of previous games - so what does turning up in person prove?
personally id be a bit embarrased about this whole situation if i was in charge of boro's security.
as you said, any result overturning would then get wrexham and a few others interested. itll never happen because of the fallout.
TLDR - i believe southampton will be found guilty - told not to do it again, given a fine of a few hundred k , possibly a minor points deduction - but they will be in the PO final and they could well win it.
at least everyone hates them now, not us. |
The real daftness of it all is that this happened previously and the EFL made a rule but gave no indication of the punishment if it was broken.
I think if you read through it, this is pretty bad. They were using high tech audio/visual equipment and streaming specific tactical discussions re the upcoming game e.g. how they might press player x, how they’d cope with Saints press etc. That's not the sort of info you get from watching videos of previous games.
I don't think a slap on the wrists and a fine really covers it. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:51 - May 13 with 1460 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:44 - May 13 by victorysquad |
I think the EFL have to act. They have no choice but to kick Southampton out the play-offs. They should have done it before last nights game. |
It's totally impossible unless they just promote Hull, which they wont do ..
If as per below they have been doing it to other teams then the possibility of Boro being given a bye is out of contention as the make up of the play-offs would have and should have been totally different.
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| This Saints spying thing on 12:02 - May 13 with 1429 views | MJallday |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:49 - May 13 by tractorboy1978 |
The real daftness of it all is that this happened previously and the EFL made a rule but gave no indication of the punishment if it was broken.
I think if you read through it, this is pretty bad. They were using high tech audio/visual equipment and streaming specific tactical discussions re the upcoming game e.g. how they might press player x, how they’d cope with Saints press etc. That's not the sort of info you get from watching videos of previous games.
I don't think a slap on the wrists and a fine really covers it. |
the bigger question is how on earth have middlesborough (who have spent a significant amount of time in the championship but have also been in the EPL - have not been able to afford a could of hundred quid for some tarpaulin to go round a fence to stop people being nosy. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 12:47 - May 13 with 1348 views | chantryblueboy |
Any punishment for cheating has to be bigger than the advantage you are trying to gain, otherwise there is no deterrent - so Southampton can’t be allowed to win promotion off the back if it | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 12:49 - May 13 with 1335 views | bluefunk |
| This Saints spying thing on 12:02 - May 13 by MJallday |
the bigger question is how on earth have middlesborough (who have spent a significant amount of time in the championship but have also been in the EPL - have not been able to afford a could of hundred quid for some tarpaulin to go round a fence to stop people being nosy. |
Yes, it’s clearly Middlesbrough at fault here | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 13:04 - May 13 with 1298 views | Churchman |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:48 - May 13 by MJallday |
£150m is bananas for a club of any size, let alone southampton. it would bankrupt them overnight.
Even Man City and Liverpool would bauk at that. remember most of their purchases are not like going into a sweetie shop - theyre split over several years. theres very few clubs in the world that could sustain a £150 m one off hit - and even if attempted, it would certainly end up in courts for years to come
remember fines have to be proportional to the crime. And all thats happened here is a (alleged) tactical advantage - and thats subjective at best - its not guaranteed the win by any stretch.
Kicking them out of the PO final would also result in a legal challenge. i dare say hull would be ok with this though :)
IMO - its much more likely a points deduction, either applied in this league if they fail to win, or the EPL if they can persuade them to apply it. They might get a token fine (perhaps 500k) -but i dont see anything more than that happening.
people expecting them to be kicked out of the PO final will be sorely disssapointed.
I suspect a fine would be more in the region of £500k (if anything) - but £150m? dont make me laugh. |
You are right. They probably will be fined a nominal amount if found guilty. £200k? So 10 months of Flynn Downes’ wages with possibly £200m incoming in from the PL. Southampton’s owners will be rolling in the isles with a paltry punishment like that. Chump change.
The EFL would be more honest by saying, if you are right, we are scared of being sued and have no control over the bigger clubs so we will let them off with a stern telling off.
Middlesbrough? Tough sht.
I keep hearing about legal challenges but if they are caught rule breaking, on what basis can a challenge be made? If they are challenge is upheld then there are no rules worth a candle. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 19:12 - May 13 with 1104 views | Ryorry |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:52 - May 13 by MJallday |
you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching.
tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble.
by the way, not condoning the behaviour . .
lets face it, the EFL arnt going to kick southampton out of the PO final. points deduction is
possible, but only an issue if southampton stay in league . fines also an issued but tbh for a club of southamptons size - unless is a 7 figure amount (which it wont be) - its kinda meh |
Massive advantage for set pieces surely, particularly if the s-f had gone to penalties, as it so nearly did. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 20:21 - May 13 with 1028 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This Saints spying thing on 19:12 - May 13 by Ryorry |
Massive advantage for set pieces surely, particularly if the s-f had gone to penalties, as it so nearly did. |
Local FAs relegate teams for breaches of rules, and deduct 6 points for minor admin errors which result in no advantage and involve no intent or dishonesty.
I have no confidence in the FA to be consistent however. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 20:31 - May 13 with 1002 views | SheffordBlue |
| This Saints spying thing on 20:21 - May 13 by redrickstuhaart |
Local FAs relegate teams for breaches of rules, and deduct 6 points for minor admin errors which result in no advantage and involve no intent or dishonesty.
I have no confidence in the FA to be consistent however. |
The FA won't be deciding. It's an Independent Panel who decide and inform the EFL. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 20:38 - May 13 with 987 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This Saints spying thing on 20:31 - May 13 by SheffordBlue |
The FA won't be deciding. It's an Independent Panel who decide and inform the EFL. |
Supposedly. But the panel are serving the FA and have no understanding of precedents set elsewhere by FAs aroudn the nation.
See the independent panel decision on Cunha... Or indeed on Leif. [Post edited 13 May 20:39]
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| This Saints spying thing on 20:46 - May 13 with 968 views | SheffordBlue |
| This Saints spying thing on 20:38 - May 13 by redrickstuhaart |
Supposedly. But the panel are serving the FA and have no understanding of precedents set elsewhere by FAs aroudn the nation.
See the independent panel decision on Cunha... Or indeed on Leif. [Post edited 13 May 20:39]
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They aren't serving the FA here though. The EFL is a separate organisation and this comes under their governance. As I understand it the FA Disciplinary branch deals with the 'rules of the game' but the 'rules of the competion' come under the different organisations be it EFL or Premier League who have their own governance arrangements. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 21:47 - May 13 with 870 views | JeremiahBrown |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:52 - May 13 by MJallday |
you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching.
tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble.
by the way, not condoning the behaviour . .
lets face it, the EFL arnt going to kick southampton out of the PO final. points deduction is
possible, but only an issue if southampton stay in league . fines also an issued but tbh for a club of southamptons size - unless is a 7 figure amount (which it wont be) - its kinda meh |
The man was filming their training and Middlesbrough said they were trying out something different for the Southamptom game. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 22:41 - May 13 with 792 views | Simonds92 |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:35 - May 13 by MJallday |
"If proven guilty then I cannot see how anything but an overturned result and Boro playing Hull in the final can be the conclusion."
thats a flawed conclusion. Just because they were found guilty of having a tactical advantage, you cannot suddenly equate that into overturning a result. it would set a very large legal precident for just about every sport in the world. any lawyer worth their salt would argue in defence that just because youve seen a team help setup several days before the event for a limited time AND it was discovered prior to the event AND therefore gave time for the aggrevied team team to adjust - that the spying had minimal impact and therefore the result yesterday would stand as it did not have a DIRECT impact. it could be argued both teams could apply same method of tactical learning simply by watching videos of previous games - so what does turning up in person prove?
personally id be a bit embarrased about this whole situation if i was in charge of boro's security.
as you said, any result overturning would then get wrexham and a few others interested. itll never happen because of the fallout.
TLDR - i believe southampton will be found guilty - told not to do it again, given a fine of a few hundred k , possibly a minor points deduction - but they will be in the PO final and they could well win it.
at least everyone hates them now, not us. |
I thought that initially, but if there is genuine proof that they have done this on multiple occasions, they should get thrown out. How do we quantify the level of advantage they have had over multiple opposition teams throughout the season? How many points did they gain due to cheating? This could have quite conceivably been us on the wrong end of this from Southampton if they'd beaten us to automatics and we would all want them chucked out. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 07:31 - May 14 with 636 views | StokieBlue |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:52 - May 13 by MJallday |
you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching.
tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble.
by the way, not condoning the behaviour . .
lets face it, the EFL arnt going to kick southampton out of the PO final. points deduction is
possible, but only an issue if southampton stay in league . fines also an issued but tbh for a club of southamptons size - unless is a 7 figure amount (which it wont be) - its kinda meh |
"you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching."
That wasn't what allegedly happened though. He had microphones and cameras and was beaming it back somewhere so they could see what was happening and listen to what was said.
"tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble."
Apparently Boro had new stuff lined up for the play-off matches that Southampton just happened to know about and counter easily.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This Saints spying thing on 08:44 - May 14 with 543 views | yorkshireblue |
| This Saints spying thing on 07:31 - May 14 by StokieBlue |
"you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching."
That wasn't what allegedly happened though. He had microphones and cameras and was beaming it back somewhere so they could see what was happening and listen to what was said.
"tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble."
Apparently Boro had new stuff lined up for the play-off matches that Southampton just happened to know about and counter easily.
SB |
HArd to know what is true, and what is not... but The Athletic (maybe?) had a quote from an unnamed different EFL club which said they played a new formation that they had never played before speifcally for the Southampton game, but Saints knew about it and set up to counter it. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:55 - May 14 with 513 views | Tractor_Buck |
| This Saints spying thing on 13:31 - May 12 by WeWereZombies |
A one legged semi-final against Wrexham should only be played if the Middlesborough squad have been taken on a night out in Rhyl by a hen party from Telford the day before the game... [Post edited 12 May 17:18]
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If it was a Hen Party from Telford, they'd have gone to Liverpool. Def info. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:04 - May 14 with 490 views | Radlett_blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:44 - May 13 by victorysquad |
I think the EFL have to act. They have no choice but to kick Southampton out the play-offs. They should have done it before last nights game. |
Hard to act very quickly in a complex case like this and be sure you're getting it right. Justice can only be served if Saints are given time to respond. Clearly the FL were silently praying for a Boro win.
But needs to be sorted soon with the play off final tickets beckoning. Must be hard for the Boro lads who probably need to keep in training, but not sure if they're going to be back in the game. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 09:11 - May 14 with 463 views | rkc123 |
| This Saints spying thing on 11:10 - May 13 by Chris_ITFC |
All getting very Partridge.
I’d call that “watching” rather than “spying”, if he’s literally just stood behind a tree!
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The photo going around of the intern with his smartphone out paints a bit of a disingenuous picture of what was going on I think, as it says in the video you linked, when spotted he packed away his equipment, which apparently included a directional microphone so they could hear what was being said during the training. Obviously the true account of things will likely come out in the end, but I don't think it was just a bloke stood watching the training. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:13 - May 14 with 458 views | tractorboy1978 |
| This Saints spying thing on 22:41 - May 13 by Simonds92 |
I thought that initially, but if there is genuine proof that they have done this on multiple occasions, they should get thrown out. How do we quantify the level of advantage they have had over multiple opposition teams throughout the season? How many points did they gain due to cheating? This could have quite conceivably been us on the wrong end of this from Southampton if they'd beaten us to automatics and we would all want them chucked out. |
You can't quantify the level of advantage they had or the points they gained because of it (assuming it's been done outside of the Boro incident). All you can say is that the perceived advantage from the Southampton end was high enough for them to risk being caught breaking an EFL rule. As I see it the punishment needs to strong as this will set a precedent/deterrent going forwards. Leeds got away with being fined £200k as their wasn't a rule written at the time. As I said earlier in the thread, being thrown out of the play offs seems the only solution to me if they are proven guilty. They could only have themselves to blame. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:18 - May 14 with 442 views | WeWereZombies |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:13 - May 14 by tractorboy1978 |
You can't quantify the level of advantage they had or the points they gained because of it (assuming it's been done outside of the Boro incident). All you can say is that the perceived advantage from the Southampton end was high enough for them to risk being caught breaking an EFL rule. As I see it the punishment needs to strong as this will set a precedent/deterrent going forwards. Leeds got away with being fined £200k as their wasn't a rule written at the time. As I said earlier in the thread, being thrown out of the play offs seems the only solution to me if they are proven guilty. They could only have themselves to blame. |
Unless they can prove everyone else was doing it. |  |
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