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To the usual 'stop the boats' suspects - take a step back and consider what sort of circumstances would be so bad as to make you think that trying to sail a dinghy 20mi across one of the world's busiest shipping lanes is one of the best choices you've got.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
It's a horrible thing to happen. Most people know they are desperate and wish them no harm.
39% of initial asylum applications are accepted. Rising to well over half after an appeal. It's going to keep happening. For some nationalities the acceptance rate is around 90%.
There should be more official channels to apply but the government knows the majority of the country considers immigration to be a big issue so they can't really change anything.
I don't know what the answer is.
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Three found dead in small boat on 13:21 - Jul 30 with 2653 views
Three found dead in small boat on 13:06 - Jul 30 by J2BLUE
It's a horrible thing to happen. Most people know they are desperate and wish them no harm.
39% of initial asylum applications are accepted. Rising to well over half after an appeal. It's going to keep happening. For some nationalities the acceptance rate is around 90%.
There should be more official channels to apply but the government knows the majority of the country considers immigration to be a big issue so they can't really change anything.
I don't know what the answer is.
Yet polls have shown that the vast majority of people think we should be a country that offers asylum to those fleeing persecution, war, etc. The public also over-estimate immigration, the number of asylum seekers in the UK and the numbers seeking asylum each year. So education is probably a good place to start.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:21 - Jul 30 by Swansea_Blue
Yet polls have shown that the vast majority of people think we should be a country that offers asylum to those fleeing persecution, war, etc. The public also over-estimate immigration, the number of asylum seekers in the UK and the numbers seeking asylum each year. So education is probably a good place to start.
The biggest issue ought to be the failure to deal with asylum application within a reasonable, and more humane, timescale.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:21 - Jul 30 by Swansea_Blue
Yet polls have shown that the vast majority of people think we should be a country that offers asylum to those fleeing persecution, war, etc. The public also over-estimate immigration, the number of asylum seekers in the UK and the numbers seeking asylum each year. So education is probably a good place to start.
Unfortunately, education is probably too late now for the individuals who have happily flown into Nigel’s web of deceit…
Wondering which of our own special brand of matte black lightbulbs will crawl over first when they spot this thread…..
Sometimes I giggle about the frothing lunatic who’s put me on ignore and has to constantly log out to see what I’ve said, because he’s a helpless egomaniac in denial….
Three found dead in small boat on 13:06 - Jul 30 by J2BLUE
It's a horrible thing to happen. Most people know they are desperate and wish them no harm.
39% of initial asylum applications are accepted. Rising to well over half after an appeal. It's going to keep happening. For some nationalities the acceptance rate is around 90%.
There should be more official channels to apply but the government knows the majority of the country considers immigration to be a big issue so they can't really change anything.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:00 - Jul 30 by Zx1988
Absolutely heartbreaking.
To the usual 'stop the boats' suspects - take a step back and consider what sort of circumstances would be so bad as to make you think that trying to sail a dinghy 20mi across one of the world's busiest shipping lanes is one of the best choices you've got.
It is a tragedy and it shouldn’t happen.
This may be a naive question but it’s a genuine one so I’ll ask it. No doubt I’ll be hammered for doing so and accused of being all sorts things that I’m not but ….. in what circumstances would someone in Northern France be unsafe to the point that they felt that crossing the English Channel in a dinghy their best option?
Fleeing a war torn country or one where they were persecuted I completely get. I also believe that it’s not practical or sustainable for every refugee to stay in the first “safe” country they reach. Europe needs a joined up approach to this. Why the need to risk your life travelling from France to England in this way though?
Three found dead in small boat on 13:40 - Jul 30 by CopfordBlue
It is a tragedy and it shouldn’t happen.
This may be a naive question but it’s a genuine one so I’ll ask it. No doubt I’ll be hammered for doing so and accused of being all sorts things that I’m not but ….. in what circumstances would someone in Northern France be unsafe to the point that they felt that crossing the English Channel in a dinghy their best option?
Fleeing a war torn country or one where they were persecuted I completely get. I also believe that it’s not practical or sustainable for every refugee to stay in the first “safe” country they reach. Europe needs a joined up approach to this. Why the need to risk your life travelling from France to England in this way though?
an issue seems to be that a significant proportion of those crossing have had asylum claims turned down in the eu. one problem is that, post brexit, that data isn't shared with the uk authorities.
so the uk can be seen as a chance for another throw of the dice - with the added attraction that our asylum assessment system is slow, poorly policed with chances to work illegally, subject to marginal legal claims, and, in the event of a claim failing, people can disappear and are likely not to be removed.
observing our duties under the refugee convention is a must, but the way that is now applied in the uk is one of the reasons it's an attractive destination once people are already safe in mainland europe.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Three found dead in small boat on 13:55 - Jul 30 with 2376 views
Three found dead in small boat on 13:00 - Jul 30 by Zx1988
Absolutely heartbreaking.
To the usual 'stop the boats' suspects - take a step back and consider what sort of circumstances would be so bad as to make you think that trying to sail a dinghy 20mi across one of the world's busiest shipping lanes is one of the best choices you've got.
A lot of the people will have already crossed the Med as well, which is a bigger stretch and arguably even more hazardous. In comparison maybe the short crossing of the Channel ‘seems’ less of a risk?
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Three found dead in small boat on 13:59 - Jul 30 with 2316 views
Three found dead in small boat on 13:28 - Jul 30 by Pinewoodblue
The biggest issue ought to be the failure to deal with asylum application within a reasonable, and more humane, timescale.
That's a point I was considering the other week and, to my mind, strikes right at the heart of the issue.
I appreciate that it's incredibly niche, but I was listening to a song on the new record of a favourite German musician of mine - a chap called Heinz Rudolf Kunze - the title of which translates to 'They Are Migrants'.
Yes, it's in German, but this is it if it's of interest:
I'll have a go at translating the lyrics in a style that sort of scans:
They sit in their shelters And count the days and the weeks They come from God knows not where Some barely on their feet
Their eyes are dull and empty As days and weeks go by African and Asian voices In a wordless, silent cry
A ragged crowd of colours Now Europeans, too The reasons people flee in fear Move closer into view
They are migrants The unknown ones The refugees, the displaced ones Renamed by everyone
Some recoil and tell themselves: “There isn’t room for more.” But fear becomes a clenched-up fist, not a hand held out before.
They sit inside the shelters, the barracks and containers. The locals often quietly hope they will not long remain there.
They’re stared at with suspicion whenever they appear. The cloud that hangs above their heads is not a heaven filled with cheer.
They are not allowed to go to work. Long waiting turns men bitter. Keep people trapped for long enough and rage will break like thunder.
People with no stain upon them, people ready to use violence; fathers, mothers, sons and daughters every kind of human life.
They came to us in search of shelter. Now, whatever we may feel, they are here, and they are human. Human beings utterly unlike,
No,
Human beings just like us.
They are migrants, the asylum seekers, uprooted without choosing it, exiled from the world they knew.
They hold a mirror up to us, but we refuse to see: a mirror showing, plain and clear, how foreign we’ve grown to be.
I think Kunze gets to the heart of something important here: the consequences of leaving people for months or years in institutional accommodation, unable to work, unable to begin integrating and with no clear idea when their cases will be resolved.
It is not an argument that every migrant is harmless, admirable or entitled to remain. The song specifically recognises that the group includes innocent people and violent people, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters - in other words, every sort of person. Migrants are no more a single moral category than the rest of society.
Leaving people in prolonged limbo is therefore neither humane nor particularly sensible. It is liable to create resentment and alienation, make eventual integration and community relations more difficult, and cost considerably more than a system which reached fair decisions promptly.
Those who are entitled to protection should be able to begin rebuilding their lives. Those who are not should also receive a timely decision. Simply warehousing people indefinitely serves nobody particularly well.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:54 - Jul 30 by lowhouseblue
an issue seems to be that a significant proportion of those crossing have had asylum claims turned down in the eu. one problem is that, post brexit, that data isn't shared with the uk authorities.
so the uk can be seen as a chance for another throw of the dice - with the added attraction that our asylum assessment system is slow, poorly policed with chances to work illegally, subject to marginal legal claims, and, in the event of a claim failing, people can disappear and are likely not to be removed.
observing our duties under the refugee convention is a must, but the way that is now applied in the uk is one of the reasons it's an attractive destination once people are already safe in mainland europe.
If you look at the data, it’s not really another roll of the dice once they reach the UK, hence why many pay people smugglers money to make the journey.
It’s dangerous, run by criminals and has other security implications, there must be a better way.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:40 - Jul 30 by CopfordBlue
It is a tragedy and it shouldn’t happen.
This may be a naive question but it’s a genuine one so I’ll ask it. No doubt I’ll be hammered for doing so and accused of being all sorts things that I’m not but ….. in what circumstances would someone in Northern France be unsafe to the point that they felt that crossing the English Channel in a dinghy their best option?
Fleeing a war torn country or one where they were persecuted I completely get. I also believe that it’s not practical or sustainable for every refugee to stay in the first “safe” country they reach. Europe needs a joined up approach to this. Why the need to risk your life travelling from France to England in this way though?
In addition to what Lowhouse wrote, there is perhaps also an ignorance as to the risks.
The English Channel is one of the most dangerous waterways in the world. Highly tidal, with associated currents. Extremely variable weather, cold water, significant danger of exposure. Very heavy shipping traffic, chance of being run down. Tricky landing beaches, with cliffs or steep shingle. A very different beast to the Med, for all its greater distance and notorious sudden storms.
But someone hailing from the Middle East or Sub-Saharan Africa may not be at all aware of that - and I doubt the traffickers would inform them.
Three found dead in small boat on 14:08 - Jul 30 by Guthrum
In addition to what Lowhouse wrote, there is perhaps also an ignorance as to the risks.
The English Channel is one of the most dangerous waterways in the world. Highly tidal, with associated currents. Extremely variable weather, cold water, significant danger of exposure. Very heavy shipping traffic, chance of being run down. Tricky landing beaches, with cliffs or steep shingle. A very different beast to the Med, for all its greater distance and notorious sudden storms.
But someone hailing from the Middle East or Sub-Saharan Africa may not be at all aware of that - and I doubt the traffickers would inform them.
It's entirely immoral that criminal gangs make money from this, almost unhindered. The camps in Northern France are extremely dangerous too and the French authorities seem happy with the status quo.
Small boat illegal migration has to be stopped in order to reduce human suffering. Of course there are other issues caused by illegal migration that must also be addressed.
It's possible to hold this view and be pro-immigration and pro-asylum, which I am. However, until the small boats crossing are reduced to a dribble it doesn't even seem possible.
Those coming from Eritrea for example are fleeing a horrendous regime. Why can't we focus some foreign policy on that country, rather than obsessing solely on Israel?
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Three found dead in small boat on 14:40 - Jul 30 with 2073 views
Three found dead in small boat on 14:08 - Jul 30 by Guthrum
In addition to what Lowhouse wrote, there is perhaps also an ignorance as to the risks.
The English Channel is one of the most dangerous waterways in the world. Highly tidal, with associated currents. Extremely variable weather, cold water, significant danger of exposure. Very heavy shipping traffic, chance of being run down. Tricky landing beaches, with cliffs or steep shingle. A very different beast to the Med, for all its greater distance and notorious sudden storms.
But someone hailing from the Middle East or Sub-Saharan Africa may not be at all aware of that - and I doubt the traffickers would inform them.
Low house, ZX and you have made some really good points. Your one about ignorance is one that is very simple but seems very plausible. On a day like today it will look like a millpond and compared to the journey to get to the Northern tip of France probably seems a relatively small step.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:28 - Jul 30 by Pinewoodblue
The biggest issue ought to be the failure to deal with asylum application within a reasonable, and more humane, timescale.
Yes, it has to be more efficient and effective (joining the queue with all public services). There’s little things they could do without needed huge changes I’d have thought, like letting asylum seekers work while their application is being assessed.
Three found dead in small boat on 14:40 - Jul 30 by CopfordBlue
Low house, ZX and you have made some really good points. Your one about ignorance is one that is very simple but seems very plausible. On a day like today it will look like a millpond and compared to the journey to get to the Northern tip of France probably seems a relatively small step.
You're probably right about it looking like a small step as well.
On my first independent trip to France I drove up to Cap Gris-Nez, just south of Calais, where there are some old Nazi fortifications from WW2.
It was a clear day, and it was striking just how short, peaceful, and easily-crossed the 22.5mi across to Folkestone looked.
At the time I found it quite eye-opening in terms of just how close the Nazis came to the UK back in 1940, but it's a very good point in the context of the small boats as well.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
Three found dead in small boat on 13:39 - Jul 30 by SitfcB
No point in discussing ‘the other side of the argument’ as just get labelled as a racist.
People seem to be having a discussion, after your comment, no one is being called a racist.
I think the people that are called racist, are by and large, racist.
Don’t be scared, why not tell us your views. Rather than pop on to say you are not going to air a view.
You wouldn’t say, I am not going to comment on Ogbene’s suitability for the premier league, in case people accuse me of not knowing about football, forum would dry up pretty quickly.
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Three found dead in small boat on 15:28 - Jul 30 with 1790 views
Three found dead in small boat on 13:00 - Jul 30 by Zx1988
Absolutely heartbreaking.
To the usual 'stop the boats' suspects - take a step back and consider what sort of circumstances would be so bad as to make you think that trying to sail a dinghy 20mi across one of the world's busiest shipping lanes is one of the best choices you've got.
over a preference to be here rather than France
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Three found dead in small boat on 15:40 - Jul 30 with 1729 views
Three found dead in small boat on 13:40 - Jul 30 by CopfordBlue
It is a tragedy and it shouldn’t happen.
This may be a naive question but it’s a genuine one so I’ll ask it. No doubt I’ll be hammered for doing so and accused of being all sorts things that I’m not but ….. in what circumstances would someone in Northern France be unsafe to the point that they felt that crossing the English Channel in a dinghy their best option?
Fleeing a war torn country or one where they were persecuted I completely get. I also believe that it’s not practical or sustainable for every refugee to stay in the first “safe” country they reach. Europe needs a joined up approach to this. Why the need to risk your life travelling from France to England in this way though?
People who are being trafficked are vulnerable in all sorts of ways, whether they are in France, Germany or the UK. But as an example:
Most who aim to make it to the UK have some English but little or no French, Italian or German. Many of those from Francophone Africa who cross the Mediterranean stay in France.
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Three found dead in small boat on 15:52 - Jul 30 with 1657 views
Three found dead in small boat on 14:43 - Jul 30 by Swansea_Blue
Yes, it has to be more efficient and effective (joining the queue with all public services). There’s little things they could do without needed huge changes I’d have thought, like letting asylum seekers work while their application is being assessed.
[Post edited 30 Jul 14:46]
I am a bleeding heart liberal and have housed an Ukrainian family for four years in my home. There's more, but it's not a "look at me" post, I'm just trying to say that I am demonstrably on the side of the UK taking its obligations
I would be entirely happy with compulsory voluntary work for those seeking asylum. The current situation of being left to rot in temporary accommodation with nothing to do, and being criminalised by any attempt to work (to pay back the debt usually owed to the traffickers, who may have threatened to harm "hostages" from the extended family back home) is utterly appalling and dehumanising.
Groups of Afghan men congregate outside their hotels smoking. They are amongst the most stressed and vulnerable people in the country, I get why they smoke. And the hotels are "No Smoking", so they go outside. But that is perceived as "threatening" by some, and we get all the "fighting aged males" talk.
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