| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM 09:18 - Oct 21 with 3198 views | FrimleyBlue |
Im only asking this as saw a post game comment on twitter by popular sports journalist. Apologies i cant post it as i cant remember who it was but it was all about the city game and how O'neil threw on flemming and Akpom and the basis of a plan B where as KM didnt appear to have one.
I am mentioning it as i know its not the first time ive seen similar mentioned or writtwn by others who cover the sport.
Now. We all know the context of the prem season under KM. The speed of promotion etc. But i just wondered not from a town fan perspective but from a general footballing one.. does the potential success of this season slightly damage the reputation of KM. As say only asking as id always only seen the no plan B mentioned by some town fans not those involved in the game itself. |  |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:21 - Oct 21 with 2424 views | SomethingBlue |
No, it's apples and oranges – O'Neil has started well but look at the squad he has vs the one KM had in the Prem. Not sure chucking a couple of forwards on is worth a reassessment of how KM got on here. |  |
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| Not by any serious or sensible football folk, no on 09:25 - Oct 21 with 2379 views | Dyland |
He will be judged on what he and he alone did in that season (and the other seasons here). That's not to say some may not question the quite rigid, superficially at least, set up re systems and subs etc. |  |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:25 - Oct 21 with 2375 views | MattinLondon |
I would say that KM constantly made changes to how we played regardless of how we were playing. But because the chances were quite subtle most fans in the stands - including me - didn’t really spot them. For example they weren’t as obvious as sticking Richard Naylor up front from central defence.
I’m pretty sure that any potential success which the ckub might well enjoy won’t damage KMs standing in the game. He built the team up from L1 with all subsequent success being in some way, attributed to him. [Post edited 21 Oct 9:26]
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:28 - Oct 21 with 2330 views | JammyDodgerrr |
There is no damage to his reputation, and you cannot compare this PL season with the last - the squad is almost completely different and at a different level. If KM worked with this squad, i'm certain he would be doing just as well, if not better.
Externally he will still be viewed as a very successful manager who will almost certainly manage at a high level, and no amount of success for GON will change that. |  |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:29 - Oct 21 with 2326 views | tractorboy1978 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:21 - Oct 21 by SomethingBlue |
No, it's apples and oranges – O'Neil has started well but look at the squad he has vs the one KM had in the Prem. Not sure chucking a couple of forwards on is worth a reassessment of how KM got on here. |
Agreed.
It will be interesting to see where KM ends up. Seen a few suggest he could be a contender for Palace/Fulham if Sage/Arbeloa get the sack. Two clubs we could quite conceivably finish above this season. I know you spoke to him recently and he seemed happy with his decision to take a break but I do wonder if there is a small part of him that sees the squad we've built and regrets leaving. | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:31 - Oct 21 with 2314 views | bsw72 |
KM built the foundations on which GON has continued to evolve the side - we will never know how KM will have fared this season . . . . |  | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:35 - Oct 21 with 2301 views | Dennyx4 |
Slightly off subject, but did you watch the Tottenham game on Monday?
De Zerbi, pretty much copied McKenna’s formation in the game v Coventry.
Three central defenders, with one playing a right back type role similar to how Tuanzebe was used.
Box midfield two holders, Gray and Tonali, with two 10s Maddison and Marmoush. Read Morsy, Luongo, Chaplin and Broadhead.
Kudos playing high up on the right, similar to Burns.
Robertson playing the Leif role.
The commentators kept saying it was wing backs, but was clearly the exact system McKenna used for the double promotion. |  | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:36 - Oct 21 with 2299 views | barcelonablue2 |
There are many ways of looking at it. As SomethingBlue has already pointed the squad makes plan B a lot more viable.
The drop off from Delap and Omari even Morsey to Luongo or Philips was massive. Remember how highly we all rated Cajuste. With love for Morsy and Cajuste, Pala and Lukic are miles miles above them. Florentino and Matusiwa as back ups also probably both above them as well?
However, yes there is probably some truth. It's not a damning of KM but rather a realisation of how well he did. It was his first ever management gig. He had coached at Spurs and United. Breaking down a low block is considerably easier to do when you have a (as much as I detest him as a person, he is a rather good player) Bruno Fernandes.
He had learnt to play free flowing football, if he had kept us at League 1 level a few years of even Champ it would be successful but with a L1 squad at Prem level when you cannot play your style. The outcome was 98% always relegation and actually the fact we were in so many games with the squad we had, tells you that McKenna is actually a really really good manager. Bested Maresca every single game with a lesser squad who is now 7 on the trot at City.
Think McKenna will be wise to spend some time in another league to learn more as a manager, which is why it is still fair to critique some things he does, e.g player positions but he is destined for the top on current trajectory.
(Also he is currently visiting other clubs, other sports to learn these things, tells you they are probably an obstacle that will be overcome) |  | | |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:37 - Oct 21 with 2286 views | WolfieAtTheBack |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:21 - Oct 21 by SomethingBlue |
No, it's apples and oranges – O'Neil has started well but look at the squad he has vs the one KM had in the Prem. Not sure chucking a couple of forwards on is worth a reassessment of how KM got on here. |
KM laid the foundations and the culture, GON has done well to build from this and long may he continue to do this. In many ways KM did all the dirty stuff as we were woeful when he arrived on and off the pitch.
KM is a class act and I hope he gets to where he wants to get to in football. [Post edited 21 Oct 9:37]
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:38 - Oct 21 with 2273 views | Dennyx4 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:36 - Oct 21 by barcelonablue2 |
There are many ways of looking at it. As SomethingBlue has already pointed the squad makes plan B a lot more viable.
The drop off from Delap and Omari even Morsey to Luongo or Philips was massive. Remember how highly we all rated Cajuste. With love for Morsy and Cajuste, Pala and Lukic are miles miles above them. Florentino and Matusiwa as back ups also probably both above them as well?
However, yes there is probably some truth. It's not a damning of KM but rather a realisation of how well he did. It was his first ever management gig. He had coached at Spurs and United. Breaking down a low block is considerably easier to do when you have a (as much as I detest him as a person, he is a rather good player) Bruno Fernandes.
He had learnt to play free flowing football, if he had kept us at League 1 level a few years of even Champ it would be successful but with a L1 squad at Prem level when you cannot play your style. The outcome was 98% always relegation and actually the fact we were in so many games with the squad we had, tells you that McKenna is actually a really really good manager. Bested Maresca every single game with a lesser squad who is now 7 on the trot at City.
Think McKenna will be wise to spend some time in another league to learn more as a manager, which is why it is still fair to critique some things he does, e.g player positions but he is destined for the top on current trajectory.
(Also he is currently visiting other clubs, other sports to learn these things, tells you they are probably an obstacle that will be overcome) |
See my post above, I wonder whether he has been at Tottenham recently and shared some thoughts with De Zerbi? | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:43 - Oct 21 with 2247 views | bsw72 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:38 - Oct 21 by Dennyx4 |
See my post above, I wonder whether he has been at Tottenham recently and shared some thoughts with De Zerbi? |
No - De Zerbi has always played that way, he developed it at Sassuolo, took it forward at Brighton and Marseille and now has the players getting used to suit it at Spurs. | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:44 - Oct 21 with 2237 views | Dennyx4 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:43 - Oct 21 by bsw72 |
No - De Zerbi has always played that way, he developed it at Sassuolo, took it forward at Brighton and Marseille and now has the players getting used to suit it at Spurs. |
Fair enough, first time I had seen it from Tottenham. | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:47 - Oct 21 with 2224 views | jasondozzell |
The only reason this season is happening is because of KM.
The only reason the club is in rude health is because of KM's work. |  | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:48 - Oct 21 with 2210 views | ThatMuhrenCross |
McKenna had tonnes of success with us. O'Neill has had a decent start from seven games. Lets not get too carried away comparing yet. If we find ourselves in a similar position after 38 games, then I think praise will be due, but there are still 31 games to go, and a lot can go wrong (or right) in that time! |  |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:53 - Oct 21 with 2186 views | SheffordBlue |
Apart from some of the other points raised by people in this thread the other reason the 'No Plan B' falls down a bit for me is the pure number of goals scored by substitutes during his time with us. | |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:10 - Oct 21 with 2091 views | WD19 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:47 - Oct 21 by jasondozzell |
The only reason this season is happening is because of KM.
The only reason the club is in rude health is because of KM's work. |
I think a few replies are playing the man rather than the ball here.
Its very early days, but when any club does OK after a manager leaves there is always a bit of a discussion about to what extent the previous manager laid the foundations vs to what extent they were just part of/benefitting from the infrastructure of the club.
KM reputation would benefit from us struggling this season. It would underline that he judged well when to take a break and had us overperforming during his time here. That's not to say he would want that, but there is some truth to it.
The opposite is also true. It we perform strongly then we look more like a functioning club and less like we were dragged here by one man. That's not to say anyone will think he is a bad manager, or he didn't do a great job, or we shouldn't be eternally grateful, but its human nature that he will be seen as less of a miracle worker. |  | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:15 - Oct 21 with 2058 views | Meadowlark |
We aint done nuffink yet! |  | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:26 - Oct 21 with 1972 views | _CliveBaker_ |
Not sure anyone worth their salt in the game would see it like that. Fernando Alonso was 2x World Champion at Ferrari, went to McLaren and never got even a podium in 3 years. Vettel, 4x World Cham at Red Bull and did nothing for Aston Martin.
The context is everything, we were sub standard last time out. Chaplin and Burns are now in L1, Morsy's at Blackburn, Clarke at Preston, Burgess at Swansea, Woolfy not even close to the Cov team, Johnson and Hirst at Stoke, Szmodics at Derby. Ogbene, Phillips and Luongo in the Championship. Al-Hamadi and Harness in L1. Age is a factor with 1 or 2, but ultimately that was never close to being a Premier League squad. McKenna was revving a Dacia Sandero in a field of Ferrari's.
Outside of that season he's proven himself highly capable and comparing the tools he had vs. those O'Neil has isn't reasonable. His next job will be in the Premier League and rightly so.
That's not to say we gave it a great fist last time, but for me it was more down to recruitment than McKenna. Sunderland, Hull and Cov have taken very different approaches than we did and that looks like it could be more fruitful. |  | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:34 - Oct 21 with 1930 views | Billywitch |
For me, no.
As others have said its two totally different situations, and teams.
But I do think if he was still here we'd have seen like for like subs as we often did with KM. It got him so much success, so can't say that would necessarily have been a bad thing either. | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:34 - Oct 21 with 1929 views | barcelonablue2 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 09:38 - Oct 21 by Dennyx4 |
See my post above, I wonder whether he has been at Tottenham recently and shared some thoughts with De Zerbi? |
In short, very likely not.
They might have discussed but I seriously doubt McKenna is on De Zerbi's list of contacts. Imagine it is Italian coaches and others he has actually worked/ studied with.
Much more likely De Zerbi and his own staff have analysed how their team is playing and adapted. Also, Coventry probably a one off as the only promoted team they can play this style against (Hull and us just play a different brand of football. Maybe Newcastle too since their threat is width and long balls.
But then I don't actually know anything and you may be KM's secret account chortling away knowing you full well did tell him to. | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:35 - Oct 21 with 1923 views | DJR |
Leaving aside the fact that we have more quality overall now, last time round we had no players of equal quality on the bench which meant that we couldn't influence or affect games late on whatever plan we adopted.
That is not the case now. [Post edited 21 Oct 10:38]
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:38 - Oct 21 with 1879 views | bsw72 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:26 - Oct 21 by _CliveBaker_ |
Not sure anyone worth their salt in the game would see it like that. Fernando Alonso was 2x World Champion at Ferrari, went to McLaren and never got even a podium in 3 years. Vettel, 4x World Cham at Red Bull and did nothing for Aston Martin.
The context is everything, we were sub standard last time out. Chaplin and Burns are now in L1, Morsy's at Blackburn, Clarke at Preston, Burgess at Swansea, Woolfy not even close to the Cov team, Johnson and Hirst at Stoke, Szmodics at Derby. Ogbene, Phillips and Luongo in the Championship. Al-Hamadi and Harness in L1. Age is a factor with 1 or 2, but ultimately that was never close to being a Premier League squad. McKenna was revving a Dacia Sandero in a field of Ferrari's.
Outside of that season he's proven himself highly capable and comparing the tools he had vs. those O'Neil has isn't reasonable. His next job will be in the Premier League and rightly so.
That's not to say we gave it a great fist last time, but for me it was more down to recruitment than McKenna. Sunderland, Hull and Cov have taken very different approaches than we did and that looks like it could be more fruitful. |
When you lay out the 24-25 team like that and where they are now (just Delap and Omari playing top flight footy, outside of who we have retained), quite how KM got them to be in as many games as they were that season is astonishing. | | | |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:45 - Oct 21 with 1850 views | Dyland |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:10 - Oct 21 by WD19 |
I think a few replies are playing the man rather than the ball here.
Its very early days, but when any club does OK after a manager leaves there is always a bit of a discussion about to what extent the previous manager laid the foundations vs to what extent they were just part of/benefitting from the infrastructure of the club.
KM reputation would benefit from us struggling this season. It would underline that he judged well when to take a break and had us overperforming during his time here. That's not to say he would want that, but there is some truth to it.
The opposite is also true. It we perform strongly then we look more like a functioning club and less like we were dragged here by one man. That's not to say anyone will think he is a bad manager, or he didn't do a great job, or we shouldn't be eternally grateful, but its human nature that he will be seen as less of a miracle worker. |
"KM reputation would benefit from us struggling this season. It would underline that he judged well when to take a break and had us overperforming during his time here. That's not to say he would want that, but there is some truth to it."
I don't agree with that. It makes some kind of logical sense on the surface but doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
Re your first para... yes, of course... I was careful to avoid going all in on the most obvious frimmism which was to prematurely talk about potential success and use it as a negative. But I didn't. And never would. No sirree.
:) [Post edited 21 Oct 10:45]
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:50 - Oct 21 with 1786 views | homer_123 |
| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 10:38 - Oct 21 by bsw72 |
When you lay out the 24-25 team like that and where they are now (just Delap and Omari playing top flight footy, outside of who we have retained), quite how KM got them to be in as many games as they were that season is astonishing. |
Under KM we were always greater than the sum of our parts. |  |
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| The potential success this season.. the effect on KM on 11:07 - Oct 21 with 1736 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
Some good responses in this thread. I also saw a tweet which referenced the fact that The Cruncher had called in to Radio Suffolk saying that O'Neil was on a different level to KM and that he would never adjusted the formation, despite the fact that Mckenna regularly rotated formations in the prem. He also said he was a 4231 guy and never went away from it, despite going away from it, often. These people have podcasts talking about football.
In terms of the comparison. O'Neil is doing a brilliant job. He also has vastly better players. Mckenna would have probably liked Palacios, Lukic, Florentino and Matuswia. If people cant see the difference, football probably isn't for them. |  |
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