| Taking into account 19:00 - Dec 18 with 2932 views | noggin |
the population, popularity of the game and the funds available, are England the most underachieving team in international football, ever? |  |
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| Taking into account on 19:25 - Dec 18 with 2837 views | J2BLUE |
Probably. I think it’s a trade off of having the best league in the world (yes some will disagree) |  |
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| Taking into account on 19:26 - Dec 18 with 2834 views | blueprint |
Probably. |  | | |
| Taking into account on 19:29 - Dec 18 with 2814 views | TheBoyBlue |
| Taking into account on 19:25 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Probably. I think it’s a trade off of having the best league in the world (yes some will disagree) |
I used to think that, believing that our youngsters were being denied chances by foreign players coming in.
However, over time, our young players have benefitted from training and then playing with and under some of the best players and managers in the world. Foden might have got more games sooner twenty years ago, but he wouldn't be as good. |  |
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| Taking into account on 19:41 - Dec 18 with 2773 views | Mullet |
Wouldn't it be more like Mexico? I can't imagine the funding for football for their international set up is particularly lacking etc |  |
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| Taking into account on 19:55 - Dec 18 with 2717 views | Melford |
| Taking into account on 19:25 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Probably. I think it’s a trade off of having the best league in the world (yes some will disagree) |
Like India in Cricket with the IPL, best and most lucrative league in the world but they've won sod all for years internationally in terms of tournaments. |  |
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| Taking into account on 19:57 - Dec 18 with 2708 views | Pique |
Yes.
I think there used to be a good case for saying it was Spain, but no longer post-2008. It has to be us. Despite the recent improvement under Southgate, our post-1966 record is dreadful considering the factors you mention: population size, popularity of the game, domestic league quality, resources, history of the game in this country. There's no excuse really.
The good news is that we're on the right track to change that, I think. But it takes time. We've only had St George's Park up and running for ten years, which in itself is ridiculous - the French have had Clairefontaine since 1988. But I do think we'll get there. |  | | |
| Taking into account on 20:45 - Dec 18 with 2622 views | Lesta_Tractor |
There was a book (Soccernomics?) which looked at those factors and England were slightly overachieving by getting in to the last eight at world cups... |  |
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| Taking into account on 20:56 - Dec 18 with 2566 views | Ftnfwest |
Maybe, FIFA are dastardly when they try to even it up a bit by only allowing 11 players a side though |  | | |
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| Taking into account on 21:28 - Dec 18 with 2489 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Taking into account on 19:25 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Probably. I think it’s a trade off of having the best league in the world (yes some will disagree) |
We've never had a Pele, Maradona, Messi or an Mbappé. That world class player who turns a very good international team into a world class international team.
Gazza could have been but never had the right attitude.
We need that player who can carry the team when it needs carrying. Gerrard could do it for Liverpool (FA Cup final against West Ham and the Champions League final in Istanbul) but never did for England. Bellingham may be that player. Who knows?
And it's not just ability. It's mental strength. Contrast Mbappé's two penalties with Kane's. |  |
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| Taking into account on 21:42 - Dec 18 with 2432 views | blueprint |
| Taking into account on 21:28 - Dec 18 by GlasgowBlue |
We've never had a Pele, Maradona, Messi or an Mbappé. That world class player who turns a very good international team into a world class international team.
Gazza could have been but never had the right attitude.
We need that player who can carry the team when it needs carrying. Gerrard could do it for Liverpool (FA Cup final against West Ham and the Champions League final in Istanbul) but never did for England. Bellingham may be that player. Who knows?
And it's not just ability. It's mental strength. Contrast Mbappé's two penalties with Kane's. |
I think you’re right there. In the modern era I suppose Beckham was are only “superstar “ player and although he was very good I think a lot of his recognition was to do with his image. France have had the likes of Zidane, Platini and Mbappe . Brazil have had Pele , Fat Ronaldo, Zico to name just a few. Italy, Germany and Argentina have produced many elite players . We just don’t seem to have the players to get us to the next level. | | | |
| Taking into account on 23:09 - Dec 18 with 2282 views | bournemouthblue |
| Taking into account on 21:42 - Dec 18 by blueprint |
I think you’re right there. In the modern era I suppose Beckham was are only “superstar “ player and although he was very good I think a lot of his recognition was to do with his image. France have had the likes of Zidane, Platini and Mbappe . Brazil have had Pele , Fat Ronaldo, Zico to name just a few. Italy, Germany and Argentina have produced many elite players . We just don’t seem to have the players to get us to the next level. |
We'd have a few world class players in the 1966 team surely? |  |
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| Taking into account on 23:15 - Dec 18 with 2246 views | Pique |
| Taking into account on 23:09 - Dec 18 by bournemouthblue |
We'd have a few world class players in the 1966 team surely? |
Banks, Moore and Charlton (Bobby) would definitely have been considered world class. Probably not the rest though. | | | |
| Taking into account on 23:19 - Dec 18 with 2224 views | Pique |
| Taking into account on 21:42 - Dec 18 by blueprint |
I think you’re right there. In the modern era I suppose Beckham was are only “superstar “ player and although he was very good I think a lot of his recognition was to do with his image. France have had the likes of Zidane, Platini and Mbappe . Brazil have had Pele , Fat Ronaldo, Zico to name just a few. Italy, Germany and Argentina have produced many elite players . We just don’t seem to have the players to get us to the next level. |
For a while it looked like Rooney would be that superstar player, but it never really happened for him at international level.
Gazza definitely should have been, and in 1990 he briefly was, but his lifestyle, the booze and his 1991 injury put paid to that. Still a wonderful player though. | | | |
| Taking into account on 23:49 - Dec 18 with 2167 views | bournemouthblue |
| Taking into account on 23:15 - Dec 18 by Pique |
Banks, Moore and Charlton (Bobby) would definitely have been considered world class. Probably not the rest though. |
So pretty much the core of the team then? | |
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| Taking into account on 07:45 - Dec 19 with 1935 views | iamatractorboy |
Comparing us to Spain, Italy, France and (West) Germany (which I think is entirely appropriate), then we massively underachieve. To be fair, this only applies with Spain since 2008. | | | |
| Taking into account on 08:19 - Dec 19 with 1864 views | ElephantintheRoom |
You make the assumption that population translates into a successful team. What last night’s game showed is that generational talents lift those around them. That has been a repeating theme in world cups. England have not had many generational talents since 1966. Gazza perhaps for a few weeks - but he was hardly a Messi or a Ronaldo. France excelled despite lacking five stellar talents, including the current Ballon d’or winner. They could probably field two teams better than England
England have overachieved in recent years as they, France, Belgium and Croatia have filled the vacuum left by Germany, Italy, Brazil etc - although Italy have flattered to deceive at the Euros. I’m not sure England have ever beaten them in a competitive game - and they don’t win every trophy either | |
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| Taking into account on 08:55 - Dec 19 with 1803 views | Pique |
| Taking into account on 23:49 - Dec 18 by bournemouthblue |
So pretty much the core of the team then? |
Yes, pretty much. Three world class players as a core can take you over the line, especially if augmented by some very good players in the form of their lives (eg Ball, Peters, Hurst).
Probably should have mentioned that Jimmy Greaves was also very much world class, but was replaced by Hurst. | | | |
| Taking into account on 09:07 - Dec 19 with 1789 views | Pique |
| Taking into account on 08:19 - Dec 19 by ElephantintheRoom |
You make the assumption that population translates into a successful team. What last night’s game showed is that generational talents lift those around them. That has been a repeating theme in world cups. England have not had many generational talents since 1966. Gazza perhaps for a few weeks - but he was hardly a Messi or a Ronaldo. France excelled despite lacking five stellar talents, including the current Ballon d’or winner. They could probably field two teams better than England
England have overachieved in recent years as they, France, Belgium and Croatia have filled the vacuum left by Germany, Italy, Brazil etc - although Italy have flattered to deceive at the Euros. I’m not sure England have ever beaten them in a competitive game - and they don’t win every trophy either |
I don't think anyone is assuming that population alone translates into a successful team - if that were true the US should have won it. It's when you have countries that have serious and long established football cultures and wealthy domestic leagues that population comes in to play, because it should (in theory) give you a large pool of talent from which to produce lots of elite players.
I agree with you though that we haven't done enough of that in the modern era. I'm hoping that's gradually changing. | | | |
| Taking into account on 09:12 - Dec 19 with 1779 views | itfcjoe |
The problem with international football is it is winner takes it all, so you can be really good but not win and no one cares.
In the last 3 tournaments we have had a semi, a final and an exit to the beaten finalists in the quarters.
Italy have failed to qualify for 2 World Cups but won the Euro's.
Ours is objectively a far better record - but no one cares because we haven't won any of the 3. [Post edited 19 Dec 2022 9:49]
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| Taking into account on 09:23 - Dec 19 with 1728 views | MattinLondon |
| Taking into account on 19:25 - Dec 18 by J2BLUE |
Probably. I think it’s a trade off of having the best league in the world (yes some will disagree) |
You could argue that it’s only since the PL has become the best league in the world that the national team has improved considerably in terms of technique and tactics. |  | | |
| Taking into account on 09:38 - Dec 19 with 1697 views | Pique |
| Taking into account on 09:12 - Dec 19 by itfcjoe |
The problem with international football is it is winner takes it all, so you can be really good but not win and no one cares.
In the last 3 tournaments we have had a semi, a final and an exit to the beaten finalists in the quarters.
Italy have failed to qualify for 2 World Cups but won the Euro's.
Ours is objectively a far better record - but no one cares because we haven't won any of the 3. [Post edited 19 Dec 2022 9:49]
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Very true. In domestic club football things can go wrong, but over the course of a long season you tend to get roughly what you deserve. | | | |
| Taking into account on 09:48 - Dec 19 with 1633 views | Bent_double |
One thing we don't do is breed the confidence of our better players, once they get to a certain level, all we seem to want to do is knock them back down again (Gazza, Beckham, etc)
Bellingham may well become the best English player of this generation, but not if he comes back to the UK. He's been under the radar in Germany so far and has benefited from that, if he ever signs for one of the Manchester or London clubs, it will be the beginning of the end for him. |  |
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| Taking into account on 10:05 - Dec 19 with 1575 views | Pique |
| Taking into account on 09:48 - Dec 19 by Bent_double |
One thing we don't do is breed the confidence of our better players, once they get to a certain level, all we seem to want to do is knock them back down again (Gazza, Beckham, etc)
Bellingham may well become the best English player of this generation, but not if he comes back to the UK. He's been under the radar in Germany so far and has benefited from that, if he ever signs for one of the Manchester or London clubs, it will be the beginning of the end for him. |
Like you, I also hope Bellingham doesn't come back to the Premier League. I think he might be OK at Man City under Pep, but otherwise Spain would be a better destination for him IMO. | | | |
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