| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? 16:40 - Jan 12 with 2983 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
Average wait of 90 minutes for heart attacks or strokes in England.
Is it simply a result of cuts from those awful see yous in power?
You literally need to hope in 2023 that someone can physically take you to A&E rather than wait for an ambulance.
Maybe everyone over the age of say 50, or anyone with underlying health issues, should seriously consider some sort of alert bracelet that they can press to alert a family member if something happens and they are in trouble.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64254249
[Post edited 12 Jan 2023 16:41]
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 16:45 - Jan 12 with 2536 views | brazil1982 |
Thankfully my Mum only had to wait 20 minutes the other week.
Are we a sicker nation than others? |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 16:52 - Jan 12 with 2501 views | Rozz |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 16:45 - Jan 12 by brazil1982 |
Thankfully my Mum only had to wait 20 minutes the other week.
Are we a sicker nation than others? |
Per another thread this morning, we have a low number of critical care hospital beds per capita. If there's no bed, the ambulance waits.
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/n |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 16:55 - Jan 12 with 2478 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
So delays at A&E means ambulances get stuck there meaning they can't get back out as quickly to help others. Didn't really consider that side of it.
Basically it goes back to the NHS as a whole being up a creek. [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 16:55]
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:00 - Jan 12 with 2437 views | HARRY10 |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 16:55 - Jan 12 by ThisIsMyUsername |
So delays at A&E means ambulances get stuck there meaning they can't get back out as quickly to help others. Didn't really consider that side of it.
Basically it goes back to the NHS as a whole being up a creek. [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 16:55]
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And who has been in charge for the past 13 years ?
Who thought it a bright idea to privatise the care system, whereby huge sums are trousered by care home owners and staff are underpaid ?
Without overall control and direction we see a fragmented system where time and money is wasted on trying to get them working in the same direction.
the same is now becoming apparent with the water companies and the railways.
You either run public services, for as a service for the public or a profit making entity for shareholders. The consequences of the latter are now being seen [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 18:00]
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:02 - Jan 12 with 2441 views | bluelagos |
So average waits are down to the fact that ambulances are sitting outside A&Es with patients waiting for beds to become available - so the actual issue/question is why is A&E full?
Seems to be a few factors - don't think it's possible to just point at one issue and say that's the problem.
1. Bed blockers - people fit for discharge but nowhere to go. So elderly patients without a care home place.
Reasons for this will be lack of funding for care homes, and staff shortages in care homes.
Staff shortages will be down to
Brexit. Impact of Covid (Long CV). Poor pay and staff opting for better paid jobs.
2. Additional demand at A&E
So a load of people who normally go to their GPs are ending up in A&E. Some of this is higher demand at GPs, some that there aren't enough GPs coming through and there is a high turnover.
Lack of staff will be down to Brexit, poor planning/funding for medical studies, high turnover (Go to NZ and work in medicine for more money and far fewer hours...)
3. Additional demand at GPs and at A&E
So the impact of CV and the fact we stopped things like screening for cancers, people stopped going to their GPs, people simply ignored symptoms they would have otherwise got checked out, we cancelled pretty much all non emergency treatment - all of these are now feeding through the system - as issues who would normally have sorted - are now worse than would have been the case.
4. Throw in the historic funding. Check out the number of emergency beds we have (per million population) compared to places like Germany, and you'll see we have been running a far leaner operation. Great when things go well, not great when the system (at creaking point) gets a load more demand.
So all in all - historic funding is clearly an issue, as is higher demand and the knock ons from Covid. The system was already at breaking point and now it's broken.
*I don't work in the NHS, but have 2 family members who do, have family members who use it, often speak to people who work in it, and read up on it (especially after my dad was left with a 5 hour wait for an ambulance)
So none of above is more than an opinion, albeit based on some interactions - am sure if anything is clearly wrong some of the board's NHS bods will correct them.
BL |  |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:09 - Jan 12 with 2394 views | dickie |
A lot of the problems stem from a criminally underfunded care sector - people are spending far longer in hospital due to not having anywhere to go to recover. Bring the care industry into public ownership, pay nhs rates to the carers and run it for the people, not for profit | | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:14 - Jan 12 with 2379 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:02 - Jan 12 by bluelagos |
So average waits are down to the fact that ambulances are sitting outside A&Es with patients waiting for beds to become available - so the actual issue/question is why is A&E full?
Seems to be a few factors - don't think it's possible to just point at one issue and say that's the problem.
1. Bed blockers - people fit for discharge but nowhere to go. So elderly patients without a care home place.
Reasons for this will be lack of funding for care homes, and staff shortages in care homes.
Staff shortages will be down to
Brexit. Impact of Covid (Long CV). Poor pay and staff opting for better paid jobs.
2. Additional demand at A&E
So a load of people who normally go to their GPs are ending up in A&E. Some of this is higher demand at GPs, some that there aren't enough GPs coming through and there is a high turnover.
Lack of staff will be down to Brexit, poor planning/funding for medical studies, high turnover (Go to NZ and work in medicine for more money and far fewer hours...)
3. Additional demand at GPs and at A&E
So the impact of CV and the fact we stopped things like screening for cancers, people stopped going to their GPs, people simply ignored symptoms they would have otherwise got checked out, we cancelled pretty much all non emergency treatment - all of these are now feeding through the system - as issues who would normally have sorted - are now worse than would have been the case.
4. Throw in the historic funding. Check out the number of emergency beds we have (per million population) compared to places like Germany, and you'll see we have been running a far leaner operation. Great when things go well, not great when the system (at creaking point) gets a load more demand.
So all in all - historic funding is clearly an issue, as is higher demand and the knock ons from Covid. The system was already at breaking point and now it's broken.
*I don't work in the NHS, but have 2 family members who do, have family members who use it, often speak to people who work in it, and read up on it (especially after my dad was left with a 5 hour wait for an ambulance)
So none of above is more than an opinion, albeit based on some interactions - am sure if anything is clearly wrong some of the board's NHS bods will correct them.
BL |
Great post, and I don't think anything you've said is inaccurate.
When I qualified as a physio I knew that I didn't want to work in hospitals* so I went into outpatients where you still see a lot of issues which could easily be traced back to the types of things you've mentioned.
* I worked in various parts of hospitals as a student, although with regards to A&E I only spent one day in that part of the hospital, in the 'waiting room' ward for want of a better term that people go into (for hours or even days) after passing through A&E. It was carnage. | |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:24 - Jan 12 with 2348 views | Swansea_Blue |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:00 - Jan 12 by HARRY10 |
And who has been in charge for the past 13 years ?
Who thought it a bright idea to privatise the care system, whereby huge sums are trousered by care home owners and staff are underpaid ?
Without overall control and direction we see a fragmented system where time and money is wasted on trying to get them working in the same direction.
the same is now becoming apparent with the water companies and the railways.
You either run public services, for as a service for the public or a profit making entity for shareholders. The consequences of the latter are now being seen [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 18:00]
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The only person I can think of who’d have been around for the whole 134 years is Facters. 
#bekind #ageismmatters
It’s a perfect sh*t storm of:
- a reduction in funding increases, not keeping up with the demand
- ballsing up recruitment
- ballsing up access to overseas staff needed because they’ve ballsed up recruitment
- slowdown in capital investment
- hammering council budgets, impacting social care capacity
- badger spending time on TWTD when he should be wiping bottoms
How to wreck a service Tory style. [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 17:24]
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:24 - Jan 12 with 2346 views | gtsb1966 |
At the end of September I was standing in the kitchen making lunch and all of a sudden I had chest pains, claminess and felt very unwell and dizzy. I sat down and my partner rang an ambulance thinking I was having a heart attack. It took 1 hour 20 mins to arrive. I was worried, my partner was so worried she rang to see where it was and I actually thought what if. Thankfully it turned out to be my thyroid medication was too low. Scary to think how many have died waiting. |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 18:02 - Jan 12 with 2253 views | HARRY10 |
"The only person I can think of who’d have been around for the whole 134 years is Facters."
oops, mea culpa  | | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 18:54 - Jan 12 with 2186 views | Basuco |
1. The UK is spending far less than any other Country per head of population on health than the rest of the developed nations.
2. The UK has less hospital beds per 1000 population than any other developed nation.
3. At a recent visit to my GP surgery to pick up a blood test form on the 14th December, an elderly man was trying to make an appointment to see a GP, he was told that no appointments were available in December and no appointments had been released for January. He was told to come back in the new year.
If his condition worsened in December he would have had to call an ambulance or go to A&E for treatment that could and should have been given by a GP.
4. Big shortage of GP's in the UK making getting a GP appointment very difficult.
Which means if any part of the health system fails then A&E have to pick up the pieces as they are the very last line of help available. Due to lack of funding this Government is directly putting lives at risk and causing avoidable death's. |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 19:06 - Jan 12 with 2155 views | noggin |
This is one for Chico. He knows all about this stuff. |  |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 19:09 - Jan 12 with 2149 views | gtsb1966 |
Nearly every news channel tonight is reporting how dire the NHS situation is yet Sunak at PMQ's tells us it's all under control but will not answer a single criticism. Anyone would think he doesn't care. | | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 19:11 - Jan 12 with 2134 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
If anyone’s interested - I’m thinking about selling defibrillators on the side… | | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 20:18 - Jan 12 with 1966 views | NthQldITFC |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:00 - Jan 12 by HARRY10 |
And who has been in charge for the past 13 years ?
Who thought it a bright idea to privatise the care system, whereby huge sums are trousered by care home owners and staff are underpaid ?
Without overall control and direction we see a fragmented system where time and money is wasted on trying to get them working in the same direction.
the same is now becoming apparent with the water companies and the railways.
You either run public services, for as a service for the public or a profit making entity for shareholders. The consequences of the latter are now being seen [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 18:00]
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A society which is run and largely populated by people who put a value on everything on the basis of perpetual growth, profit, and greedy stockpiling has become so unequal that it is rapidly disintegrating and taking the planet down with it. We all know this.
Why not try a society which values itself on the basis of outcomes: happiness, health and a sustainable impact on the environment?
It's a no-brainer if we want our society and our descendants to survive, isn't it? |  |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 20:59 - Jan 12 with 1916 views | eireblue |
A cyclic may suggest, we have an electorate that is less swayed by saving the NHS in 24 hours, and more swayed by providing the NHS 350 million a week.
Funny how that all turned out. |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 21:09 - Jan 12 with 1896 views | BlueBadger |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:02 - Jan 12 by bluelagos |
So average waits are down to the fact that ambulances are sitting outside A&Es with patients waiting for beds to become available - so the actual issue/question is why is A&E full?
Seems to be a few factors - don't think it's possible to just point at one issue and say that's the problem.
1. Bed blockers - people fit for discharge but nowhere to go. So elderly patients without a care home place.
Reasons for this will be lack of funding for care homes, and staff shortages in care homes.
Staff shortages will be down to
Brexit. Impact of Covid (Long CV). Poor pay and staff opting for better paid jobs.
2. Additional demand at A&E
So a load of people who normally go to their GPs are ending up in A&E. Some of this is higher demand at GPs, some that there aren't enough GPs coming through and there is a high turnover.
Lack of staff will be down to Brexit, poor planning/funding for medical studies, high turnover (Go to NZ and work in medicine for more money and far fewer hours...)
3. Additional demand at GPs and at A&E
So the impact of CV and the fact we stopped things like screening for cancers, people stopped going to their GPs, people simply ignored symptoms they would have otherwise got checked out, we cancelled pretty much all non emergency treatment - all of these are now feeding through the system - as issues who would normally have sorted - are now worse than would have been the case.
4. Throw in the historic funding. Check out the number of emergency beds we have (per million population) compared to places like Germany, and you'll see we have been running a far leaner operation. Great when things go well, not great when the system (at creaking point) gets a load more demand.
So all in all - historic funding is clearly an issue, as is higher demand and the knock ons from Covid. The system was already at breaking point and now it's broken.
*I don't work in the NHS, but have 2 family members who do, have family members who use it, often speak to people who work in it, and read up on it (especially after my dad was left with a 5 hour wait for an ambulance)
So none of above is more than an opinion, albeit based on some interactions - am sure if anything is clearly wrong some of the board's NHS bods will correct them.
BL |
Essentially, what Laggers said plus I'd add that the events of the past two years have accelerated the departures of both older staff(they basically risked their lives during covid, only to be rewarded with claps, so they've retired) and younger staff(the senior support isn't there so they are moving abroad for better conditions, pay and/or way of living). |  |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 06:47 - Jan 13 with 1738 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Thé answer is very simple. If they weren’t in those ambulances there would be nowhere to put them and nobody to look after them. The problem is exacerbated by working practices - as demonstrated every time there is a serious or terrorist event which prevents paramedics doing their job - but nobody talks about that even though it is raised at every multimillion pound public enquiry where ‘lessons will be learned’ | |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 06:49 - Jan 13 with 1736 views | chicoazul |
It’s not the ambulance services fault. They’re waiting for hours and hours at hospitals to unload patients which means they aren’t available on the road. This is in turn because many hospitals are short staffed and have no beds as they cannot safely discharge people due to lack of social care. |  |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 08:13 - Jan 13 with 1674 views | TractorWood |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 06:49 - Jan 13 by chicoazul |
It’s not the ambulance services fault. They’re waiting for hours and hours at hospitals to unload patients which means they aren’t available on the road. This is in turn because many hospitals are short staffed and have no beds as they cannot safely discharge people due to lack of social care. |
The ambulance service and A&E appear to be the end of most process flowcharts.
- GP is busy, call an ambulance
- GP surgery is closed, call an ambulance
- 111 don't know what to do, call an ambulance
People avoid the GP as it's not an instant solution and that is why A&E waiting times are so high. Last time I went, someone genuinely turned up with a dry scalp. Also some young parents turned up with the toddler saying that she hasn't eaten anything today and it was about midday.
I feel so much for the NHS staff. As on top of having to do a unimaginable grim job, they also have to pick up the pieces and observe Britain's total dysfunction. |  |
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| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 10:54 - Jan 13 with 1594 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
Also worth noting that a vast majority of ambulances that are out responding to calls are not actually NHS ambulances staffed with paramedics. There are a large number of privately run (contracted by NHS) ambulances that are staffed with Ambulance technicians.
There are clearly pluses and minuses to this approach, particularly as their role was created more for lower category calls and patient transport..but when discussing with family about the situation none of them were aware and simply thought ambulance = NHS paramedics |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 11:20 - Jan 13 with 1577 views | DJR |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 10:54 - Jan 13 by King_of_Portman_Rd |
Also worth noting that a vast majority of ambulances that are out responding to calls are not actually NHS ambulances staffed with paramedics. There are a large number of privately run (contracted by NHS) ambulances that are staffed with Ambulance technicians.
There are clearly pluses and minuses to this approach, particularly as their role was created more for lower category calls and patient transport..but when discussing with family about the situation none of them were aware and simply thought ambulance = NHS paramedics |
I got a shock a couple of years ago when I called an ambulance for my mother, and had a fire engine arrive. The philosophy is that firefighters have first responder training, and the ambulance for my mother arrived for a little bit later.
I wonder if the fire service is still being used given the current crisis. I can't say I've seen any about. |  | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 11:32 - Jan 13 with 1547 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 11:20 - Jan 13 by DJR |
I got a shock a couple of years ago when I called an ambulance for my mother, and had a fire engine arrive. The philosophy is that firefighters have first responder training, and the ambulance for my mother arrived for a little bit later.
I wonder if the fire service is still being used given the current crisis. I can't say I've seen any about. |
Police are also being sent to a lot of incidents that Ambulances can’t get to.
In fact if you’re even unfortunate enough to have to go to your local A&E you’ll see dozen of police cars and officers either waiting in the ambulance bays or sat with people in the waiting area. | | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 15:06 - Jan 13 with 1444 views | HARRY10 |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 06:49 - Jan 13 by chicoazul |
It’s not the ambulance services fault. They’re waiting for hours and hours at hospitals to unload patients which means they aren’t available on the road. This is in turn because many hospitals are short staffed and have no beds as they cannot safely discharge people due to lack of social care. |
Really, that must come as a surprise to .... nobody, absolutely nobody
.
Now why not tell us who has been in charge for the past dozen or so years. Which PM stood on the steps of Downing Street and blatently lied when he claimed there was a care plan ready to be implemented. There was not, nor is there now.
Or tell us which government thought it a good idea to close the door on medical staff from the EU.
As with so much else, years of under investment and cuts have led us to where we are now. The former being something you have backed with your vote, and your regular comments on here. | | | |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 15:13 - Jan 13 with 1443 views | hype313 |
| How has the ambulance situation got so bad? on 17:02 - Jan 12 by bluelagos |
So average waits are down to the fact that ambulances are sitting outside A&Es with patients waiting for beds to become available - so the actual issue/question is why is A&E full?
Seems to be a few factors - don't think it's possible to just point at one issue and say that's the problem.
1. Bed blockers - people fit for discharge but nowhere to go. So elderly patients without a care home place.
Reasons for this will be lack of funding for care homes, and staff shortages in care homes.
Staff shortages will be down to
Brexit. Impact of Covid (Long CV). Poor pay and staff opting for better paid jobs.
2. Additional demand at A&E
So a load of people who normally go to their GPs are ending up in A&E. Some of this is higher demand at GPs, some that there aren't enough GPs coming through and there is a high turnover.
Lack of staff will be down to Brexit, poor planning/funding for medical studies, high turnover (Go to NZ and work in medicine for more money and far fewer hours...)
3. Additional demand at GPs and at A&E
So the impact of CV and the fact we stopped things like screening for cancers, people stopped going to their GPs, people simply ignored symptoms they would have otherwise got checked out, we cancelled pretty much all non emergency treatment - all of these are now feeding through the system - as issues who would normally have sorted - are now worse than would have been the case.
4. Throw in the historic funding. Check out the number of emergency beds we have (per million population) compared to places like Germany, and you'll see we have been running a far leaner operation. Great when things go well, not great when the system (at creaking point) gets a load more demand.
So all in all - historic funding is clearly an issue, as is higher demand and the knock ons from Covid. The system was already at breaking point and now it's broken.
*I don't work in the NHS, but have 2 family members who do, have family members who use it, often speak to people who work in it, and read up on it (especially after my dad was left with a 5 hour wait for an ambulance)
So none of above is more than an opinion, albeit based on some interactions - am sure if anything is clearly wrong some of the board's NHS bods will correct them.
BL |
I had the misfortune of calling an ambulance on New Years day for my mother as she had Pneumonia, I was chatting to the Paramedics and was asking them why it is so bad and without hesitation it was down to social care cuts, cuts to community nurses. So many people could've been kept out of hospital if they had been seen before things got worse, and so many could go home from hospital if they had the care at home/community.
Seems like such a basic step to rectify, but like all other services, the Tories have decimated that sector.
See also Mental Health, closing St Clements which was a huge site to turn into into housing, only to put a poxy little place on Heath Road, when arguably we have the biggest Mental Health crisis we have faced in our history. |  |
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