| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:52 - Nov 2 with 4192 views | giant_stow |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:44 - Nov 2 by BrixtonBlue |
Not at all. You don't bang on about anti-semitism for political reasons as far as I'm aware. |
Fair enough mr, but I have expressed how I won;t be voting for labour again till they sort this (how could you miss it?! Brute.)
I just think if someone says they feel part jewish through blood, that really ought to be the end of it. |  |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:57 - Nov 2 with 4169 views | Ryorry |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:47 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
My pleasure.
I've got If This Is A Man (Auschwitz) and The Truce (his year making his way back to Italy and trying to recover his life) as one book. I must have read it every two or three years for the past 30 years. If there's a better and more important book to read then I haven't found it. |
Thanks for the recommend, might start there then (if I can steel myself) & some poetry to dip into.
Have been listening to 'Fatherland' serialised on R4Extra - chilling enough, esp with Anton Lesser in lead role. |  |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:59 - Nov 2 with 4161 views | Ryorry |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:54 - Nov 2 by giant_stow |
lummy, thats grim. |
Bloody hell :( | |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:01 - Nov 2 with 4151 views | lowhouseblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:25 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
If they spoke for themselves we'd be talking about how awful these antisemites are. Not, as lowers did immediately and GB evidently wants to, link it to a perception of Corbyn as an antisemite.
I can't see it as anything other than weaponising antisemitism as a party political tool. It's just too transparent and disingenuous.
FWIW my all-time hero is Primo Levi. He'd be appalled by how antisemitism is being used and abused for narrow political and national interests. |
i suspect he would be more appalled by people turning a blind eye to it. the reason the public perception of corbyn on this has shifted is that he has failed to get to grips with it, or take action against it, and has tried to wish it away. but the failure to take it seriously and instead rely on convenient excuses isn't confined to corbyn. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:08 - Nov 2 with 4123 views | Darth_Koont |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:54 - Nov 2 by giant_stow |
lummy, thats grim. |
The essence isn't antisemitic but I'd say that someone who is comfortable with their political views expressed in that way (and knows the reaction) is probably an antisemite and not just fanatically anti-Israel or anti-Zionist.
Primo Levi believed that the Israeli state was becoming "fascist" and "racist" — and I certainly think those criticisms are just as relevant today. It would be a terrible day if we're not able to call a racist a racist or describe a style of government as fascist just because we've been told another arbitrary standard takes precedence.
I think truth and making people and governments accountable is much more important. |  |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:10 - Nov 2 with 4106 views | BrixtonBlue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:52 - Nov 2 by giant_stow |
Fair enough mr, but I have expressed how I won;t be voting for labour again till they sort this (how could you miss it?! Brute.)
I just think if someone says they feel part jewish through blood, that really ought to be the end of it. |
Absolutely, but it's not as simple as that with Glassers. He's using it to add weight to his stance but it's unnecessary. And it's unnecessary focusing on Labour (unless you're politically motivated to do so).
All racism is wrong. I don't know why we have to single any out or be connected to it for that to be true. |  |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:10 - Nov 2 with 4114 views | lowhouseblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:08 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
The essence isn't antisemitic but I'd say that someone who is comfortable with their political views expressed in that way (and knows the reaction) is probably an antisemite and not just fanatically anti-Israel or anti-Zionist.
Primo Levi believed that the Israeli state was becoming "fascist" and "racist" — and I certainly think those criticisms are just as relevant today. It would be a terrible day if we're not able to call a racist a racist or describe a style of government as fascist just because we've been told another arbitrary standard takes precedence.
I think truth and making people and governments accountable is much more important. |
"The essence isn't anti-Semitic" !!!!!
wow. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:12 - Nov 2 with 4104 views | Darth_Koont |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:01 - Nov 2 by lowhouseblue |
i suspect he would be more appalled by people turning a blind eye to it. the reason the public perception of corbyn on this has shifted is that he has failed to get to grips with it, or take action against it, and has tried to wish it away. but the failure to take it seriously and instead rely on convenient excuses isn't confined to corbyn. |
Well, I think that's nonsense. Who is turning a blind eye to antisemitism?
The desire to defend freedom of speech and a refusal to be casually lumped in with antisemites because you are politically opposed to Israel or support the Palestinian cause is a separate thing.
I think we can all agree that anyone who thinks that "Jews are a cancer on the world" is an antisemite and an awful human being. | |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:14 - Nov 2 with 4097 views | Darth_Koont |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:10 - Nov 2 by lowhouseblue |
"The essence isn't anti-Semitic" !!!!!
wow. |
No. How it is expressed is. | |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:17 - Nov 2 with 4080 views | lowhouseblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:14 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
No. How it is expressed is. |
so linking the star of david, the swastika, nazi, and zio isn't in your eyes 'in essence' anti-semitic?? you're saying it all depends on the context - and there's a way of linking those things together that isn't anti-semitic?? wow, just wow. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:22 - Nov 2 with 4057 views | Darth_Koont |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:17 - Nov 2 by lowhouseblue |
so linking the star of david, the swastika, nazi, and zio isn't in your eyes 'in essence' anti-semitic?? you're saying it all depends on the context - and there's a way of linking those things together that isn't anti-semitic?? wow, just wow. |
No, the essence is comparing Israel (and Zionism in particular) to another dangerous and racist ideology. We actually agree that the expression of that (the linking of swastika and Stars of David, zio and Nazi) is antisemitic. | |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:29 - Nov 2 with 4032 views | lowhouseblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:22 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
No, the essence is comparing Israel (and Zionism in particular) to another dangerous and racist ideology. We actually agree that the expression of that (the linking of swastika and Stars of David, zio and Nazi) is antisemitic. |
it's the star of david not the israeli flag, zio is anti-semitic slang, and comparisons with the nazis falls within the international definition of anti-semitism. in it's very essence that poster is anti-semitic. that you want to split hairs on something so blatant - in it's very essence - is bizarre. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:34 - Nov 2 with 4014 views | Darth_Koont |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:29 - Nov 2 by lowhouseblue |
it's the star of david not the israeli flag, zio is anti-semitic slang, and comparisons with the nazis falls within the international definition of anti-semitism. in it's very essence that poster is anti-semitic. that you want to split hairs on something so blatant - in it's very essence - is bizarre. |
You twisting what I'm saying and making it out to be something else doesn't feel bizarre at all.
Don't go changing Lowers. | |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:38 - Nov 2 with 3997 views | lowhouseblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:34 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
You twisting what I'm saying and making it out to be something else doesn't feel bizarre at all.
Don't go changing Lowers. |
you could try changing. political convenience is taking you somewhere rather nasty. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:41 - Nov 2 with 3986 views | Darth_Koont |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:38 - Nov 2 by lowhouseblue |
you could try changing. political convenience is taking you somewhere rather nasty. |
Where is it taking me?
Somewhere smeary and vague by any chance? | |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:52 - Nov 2 with 3952 views | J2BLUE |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 11:42 - Nov 2 by GlasgowBlue |
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That seems ridiculous to me. There's no context and it just assumes they're telling the truth.
My point isn't that I think Jewish people are lying about anything, it's that accepting that any group or person are always telling the truth is dangerous. |  |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:58 - Nov 2 with 3934 views | WeWereZombies |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:29 - Nov 2 by lowhouseblue |
it's the star of david not the israeli flag, zio is anti-semitic slang, and comparisons with the nazis falls within the international definition of anti-semitism. in it's very essence that poster is anti-semitic. that you want to split hairs on something so blatant - in it's very essence - is bizarre. |
Reading through this thread I cannot say I am impressed with your reasoning, lowhouse. Darth had a valid point about giving carte blanche to the Israeli government and has condemned the poster. |  |
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 15:07 - Nov 2 with 3900 views | Clapham_Junction |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:52 - Nov 2 by J2BLUE |
That seems ridiculous to me. There's no context and it just assumes they're telling the truth.
My point isn't that I think Jewish people are lying about anything, it's that accepting that any group or person are always telling the truth is dangerous. |
Well quite; statements like this can only be about shutting down debate.
Former Israeli minister Shulamit Aloni said that sometimes accusations of anti-semitism were used to counter criticism of Israel. Does she hold anti-semitic beliefs? |  | | |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 15:13 - Nov 2 with 3884 views | footers |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 15:07 - Nov 2 by Clapham_Junction |
Well quite; statements like this can only be about shutting down debate.
Former Israeli minister Shulamit Aloni said that sometimes accusations of anti-semitism were used to counter criticism of Israel. Does she hold anti-semitic beliefs? |
And are jews who believe Israel to be a racist endeavour also antisemites?
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| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 15:16 - Nov 2 with 3881 views | eireblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 13:22 - Nov 2 by BrixtonBlue |
We all know your Jewish links. You don't have to keep posting them over and over, and you don't have to exaggerate with the emotive "my kids have Jewish blood". My nan was half German... does that mean my mum is full of German blood? Maybe I have a toe-full?
Basically you exaggerate the links to add weight to your arguments. It's only in recent times you've done this as well.
I've just had a look at the threads you've started since the Tory antisemitism broke and I can't see a single one about it, so maybe you could link me to it?
To clarify: you haven't been ridiculed for bringing up anti-semitism. You've been ridiculed for binging it up almost exclusively with regards to the Labour Party. All I'm asking for is evenhandedness.
I have not said, and have never said, you are, "only highlighting this subject for party political reasons." I'm saying it's a happy bonus for you. It's something you feel passionately about, obviously, but it's also an opportunity for you - an opportunity to attack Labour and Corbyn.
I repeat, all I'm asking for is evenhandedness. Otherwise it does look politically motivated. You're an intelligent man, you must see how it looks? |
I think you are being a little bit unfair.
Apparently, there are a couple of vegans on the board. Some start vegan threads, some jump in when others start vegan threads, and maybe talk about their personal perspective.
The nature, style and language of a debate may become more polarized and push people apart, or maybe more constructive and build towards an understanding.
Some people use emotive language.
If GB posts more about his personal journey, maybe it is an indication of something that is happening with him, as a result of these discussions and wider thoughts he may have had.
Maybe, rather than attack the person, who you acknowledge as intelligent, maybe consider what is prompting this.
I would agree that language has to be carefully used by all, otherwise divisive language just leads to more division.
Personally, I do think there is a difference between saying anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semites that are members of the Labour Party. One phrasing may cause people to be more protective of something they are associated with, and therefore maybe are more likely to become more defensive.
I have posted before, I am quite happy for the police to prosecute hate crime, even stuff on social media. We probably need more police to do it.
An interesting debate would be, why in times of a perceived increase in hateful speech is the government of the day not investing more in more policing of such potential crime?
Especially when such language could be a precursor to worse things.
Should any political party that aspires to have MP's and wants to stand for elections have a strict code of conduct, monitored not by themselves, but by an independent body?
In fact, it may have been a decent move by the Labour Party to have been more obviously strict themselves and use that to bash the current government with. Especially when we have police saying they don't have resources to do all the things they could do.
Not having done that is a reflection on intelligence and competence.
Just on a side note.
There was a dialogue a while back, probably sparked by Richard Dawkins, about faith schools.
What makes me concerned is that people get very polarised by use of language.
For instance from a purely religious perspective, many people think it is fine for someone to have a belief, but to try and impose it, is wrong. We live in a democracy.
For instance I think his perspective is that there shouldn't be faith schools, or at least state funded ones. Labelling a child and imposing a religion on them from a very early age seemed wrong to him.
Therefore there maybe a debate to be had about religion in a secular society that embraces all faiths.
And in the Richard Dawkins way of thinking, he viewed it as wrong to label children of catholics as a catholic child.
I think if you want to have that debate, why not have that debate, about religious faith.
Anyhoo, back on topic. The thing that would be interesting to know, of the people that have done anti-semitic posts on SM, that are widely propagated, do they still have accounts on the Social Media sites? Or are they being allowed to carry on.
Wasn't Stephen Current-Name-Yaxley, removed from social media?
Hopefully equally repugnant users of SM are being dropped. |  | | |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 15:33 - Nov 2 with 3845 views | lowhouseblue |
| A criminal investigation has begun into antisemitism in the Labour party on 14:41 - Nov 2 by Darth_Koont |
Where is it taking me?
Somewhere smeary and vague by any chance? |
it's leading you into equivocating about anti-semitism - even with the most blatant example you can see an inner essence that's ok. so not at all vague. to your credit i'm certain you couldn't do the same with any other form of hate speech or racism. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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